208 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

I only dislike the batarian slavers. Those who try to take away people's rights because they think it's their right.



Ironic, I know.



Then there are batarians that grew mistrust based on events. Like that sick batarian in the quarantine zone. I think he mostly hated humans because he thought they spread the plague, and when I proved him wrong, he changed his view pretty quick.



Not all batarians are enslaving, sludge-spewing bastards.

[In Exile]

Nightwriter wrote...
You're free to say that about the individuals you encounter, but I hesitate to use those individuals to make generalizations about all batarians.

I agree with bo that we shouldn't be too quick to judge batarians we've never met before.

It's going to be hard to judge a culture whose central values include slavery. That's just something abhorent to us. Even if you take what the OP was talking about - cultural devices with a country like China, even there they are not quite at the stage where they believe they should own people like property.

To an extent, we can excuse a society like China for the difference between their populace and their political apparatus. I don't think your average Chinese person is happy and proud of limitations on freedoms, though he or she might integrate that as part of their daily life.

On the other hand, slavery is a much more personal issue. The government can't force you to own slaves.

[ObserverStatus]

James2912 wrote...

The Alliance backed off what a bunch of wimps when Cerberus is in charge that ain't gonna happen!

If Cerberus was in charge, they probably would have kidnapped every Batarian aboard and dissected their brains or something.

[Aeowyn]

Because Cerberus really have the man power to start a war with the Batarians.....<_<

[OmegaXI]

Well maybe the blinks just need to be enrolled into some "focus retreats"

[Legbiter]

didymos1120 wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

I think the only Batarians I have suffered to live are the ones in Aria's posse and that merchant Marsh. Charn, Balak, Salkie, the sick one and those holding Mordin's assistant were gunned down and/or left to die.

You can't kill Salkie.  He just gives you a ride to Garrus' recruitment mission.  You thinking of Sgt. Cathka?

Ah yes, that's the one I meant.

[ZachForrest]

General User wrote...

ZachForrest wrote...

General User wrote...
Extermination has one undeniable benefit, it’s permanent.

Whether neutralizing the batarian menace in such a manner would be a net gain or loss, who’s to say? We’d need a crystal ball to know for sure.

“But rest assured, the original problem will be solved.” (Levitt/Dubner, Freakonomics)

If you wanna get all economist on me.

cost of exterminating batarians>>>>cost a few humans being abducted/killed whatever



much better to open up communication

or send in STG to start uprising in outlying groups under the hegemony

It’s not about cost, it’s about solving problems.  Continued batarian slave raids on human colonies are absolutely intolerable, any and all means must be put on the table to bring them to a stop, permanently.
 
You know what Teddy Roosevelt said about communication, right? Any communication between humanity and the batarians is FAR more likely to be productive if the Hegemony fleet is scrap metal and the Alliance fleet is in Khar’Shan orbit.
 
Even with outside support, slave uprisings have a sad, bloody (nigh onto exclusive) history of defeat and failure.     

I can scarcely agree that human life has any more real value than Batarian, certainly not so much more value that genocide is justifiable

Modifié par ZachForrest, 23 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .

[General User]

ZachForrest wrote...

General User wrote...

ZachForrest wrote...
If you wanna get all economist on me.

cost of exterminating batarians>>>>cost a few humans being abducted/killed whatever

much better to open up communication

or send in STG to start uprising in outlying groups under the hegemony

It’s not about cost, it’s about solving problems.  Continued batarian slave raids on human colonies are absolutely intolerable, any and all means must be put on the table to bring them to a stop, permanently.
 
You know what Teddy Roosevelt said about communication, right? Any communication between humanity and the batarians is FAR more likely to be productive if the Hegemony fleet is scrap metal and the Alliance fleet is in Khar’Shan orbit.
 
Even with outside support, slave uprisings have a sad, bloody (nigh onto exclusive) history of defeat and failure.     

I can scarcely agree that human life has any more real value than Batarian, certainly not so much more value that genocide is justifiable

It’s not about placing a value on life either, it’s about obligation. 
 
The Systems Alliance as an institution has an obligation to its citizens to protect them from things like batarian slavers. As humanity’s self-appointed champion, Cerberus has a similar obligation.
 
Now, if the batarians will agree to release all human slaves and never again take another, great. If the Batarian Hegemony has to have a few cans of Torfan opened on them before they get the picture, so be it. If Khar’Shan has to be bombed back to the Stone Age, with billions losing their lives, so be it. If every single batarian has to die ala the Rachni, so be it.
 
Batarians taking humans as slaves must end.  How many people (human and batarian) have to die before that happens is up to the Hegemony.

[lovgreno]

bobobo878 wrote...

James2912 wrote...

The Alliance backed off what a bunch of wimps when Cerberus is in charge that ain't gonna happen!

If Cerberus was in charge, they probably would have kidnapped every Batarian aboard and dissected their brains or something.

And then they would escape from their cages and eat the Cerberus redshirts experimenting on them. Followed by the usual cleanup by Shepard.

[Undertone]

I love how most of the people here are applying "western" values and ideals and how most of you think it should apply automatically for the rest of the world. I am not going to go into much detail because I don't want to turn this thread into political, RL debate. Plus most of you see only one side (yours) and never experienced the other side.



I am fine with batarians really. I don't like them but that's because I want to see humanity on top - so I don't like turians just as much or any other race. Otherwise batarians are just fine, their regime and values are also fine. And if it works, it works for them. If it doesn't it will fall. It is within nature that things that work, get better. Things that don't die out or get changed.



Many people here are so soft by your ideas of peace, "freedom". There is no such thing as those two. I would love to see you in an environment different from your own cuddly homes. You think democracy works everywhere and should work everywhere. If you want to be ruled by the rabble, be my guest.



Unfortunately I've gotten a bit political but oh well. Feel free not to reply to anything I've said.

[Last Vizard]

didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Way too many people are PC, I'll judge a whole race on its history, Batarian culture is backwards and it sounds corrupt.... Batarians are natural bad guys.

Then so is humanity, if we're going on history.

Damn straight Humanity is corrupt, Look at America, some very bad things are happening to their peoples rights and it seems they don't see where its going.... who are the real terrorists? (not only the Batarians)

My point is that the Batarian race did not have a point in their history where they stood up for whats right and fought for the rights of those who had none.

[Last Vizard]

Undertone wrote...

I love how most of the people here are applying "western" values and ideals and how most of you think it should apply automatically for the rest of the world. I am not going to go into much detail because I don't want to turn this thread into political, RL debate. Plus most of you see only one side (yours) and never experienced the other side.

I am fine with batarians really. I don't like them but that's because I want to see humanity on top - so I don't like turians just as much or any other race. Otherwise batarians are just fine, their regime and values are also fine. And if it works, it works for them. If it doesn't it will fall. It is within nature that things that work, get better. Things that don't die out or get changed.

Many people here are so soft by your ideas of peace, "freedom". There is no such thing as those two. I would love to see you in an environment different from your own cuddly homes. You think democracy works everywhere and should work everywhere. If you want to be ruled by the rabble, be my guest.

Unfortunately I've gotten a bit political but oh well. Feel free not to reply to anything I've said.

HA, isn't Bulgaria the country where the votes are rigged?  and are you saying basic Human rights are "Western values"?  I think we can officially add Bulgaria to the list of easily indoctrinated (in a bad way).

[volus4life]

i wish there was a renegade option where you could use 4 fingers to poke a batarian in the eyes, Three Stooges Style.

[ROD525]

Any Batarian I see gets a full thermal clip. They're slave traders...my Ruthless Colonist Shepard dont play that. Nuff said.

[Undertone]

Last Vizard wrote...

Undertone wrote...

I love how most of the people here are applying "western" values and ideals and how most of you think it should apply automatically for the rest of the world. I am not going to go into much detail because I don't want to turn this thread into political, RL debate. Plus most of you see only one side (yours) and never experienced the other side.

I am fine with batarians really. I don't like them but that's because I want to see humanity on top - so I don't like turians just as much or any other race. Otherwise batarians are just fine, their regime and values are also fine. And if it works, it works for them. If it doesn't it will fall. It is within nature that things that work, get better. Things that don't die out or get changed.

Many people here are so soft by your ideas of peace, "freedom". There is no such thing as those two. I would love to see you in an environment different from your own cuddly homes. You think democracy works everywhere and should work everywhere. If you want to be ruled by the rabble, be my guest.

Unfortunately I've gotten a bit political but oh well. Feel free not to reply to anything I've said.

HA, isn't Bulgaria the country where the votes are rigged?  and are you saying basic Human rights are "Western values"?  I think we can officially add Bulgaria to the list of easily indoctrinated (in a bad way).

Thank you for just further illustrating my point. As a matter of fact I haven't lived in my country for the past 10 years. You made the mistake of juxtapositioning my opinion to that of my culture or origin of living. And that somehow I am presenting a Bulgarian view as opposed to Western views, which is not the case. Perhaps my main point was that what works over here, doesn't necessarily works over there.

Basic human rights is something very morally ambigious and yes, they are values that not everyone aspires to. As to your opinion of my country of origin, it shows nothing more but overgeneralization and narrow-mindnessness. You think your country doesn't have corruption?  (considering I am very direct person and let's just say we don't have complete freedom of speech here, you can consider this paragraph as a polite way of me to say that you are a tool)

To make this less off-topic, this ties in that values and ideas might work well within batarian society. If they didn't, they would be changed eventually. Ask yourselves from where does your morality stems from and who does it benefits?

Modifié par Undertone, 24 janvier 2011 - 01:20 .

[Mudzr]

Looking back, each race in ME seems to be built on characterisations that reflect (often negative)stereotypes of races. For example the salarians are similiar to the indians in how they are treated as hardworking/ intelligent, yet disposable labor as seen in Thane's mission which basically mimics the situation in Dubai. Volus are seen as greedy because of their association with money which reflects the view of the jews and the Quarians are basically space gypsies, with the constant mistrust of the species because of their homelessness going with it.

Yet think about the salarians, volus and quarians we have encountered, in fact think about every party member we have had and compare them to their racial stereotypes. (In ME1 they were basically the complete opposite, whilst in ME2 they were mostly extreme cases of their stereotypes in theory (e.g. Samara brings the conception of asairi as mystical to a whole new level being justicar) but were again very individual and distanct in their beliefs. )



Now with all that, including the OP's theory in mind, it makes sense that we were intially meant to hate the batarians. On many levels, and I don't think even Bioware could have predicted the amount of hate the entire species has recieved, but think about it. Bioware has actively shown how different the members of the species really are, and in a meta sense, has shown are wrong racial stereotypes can be, even with the geth, hell, even with the Rachni. So it really wouldn't make sense if the batarians become this all evil force that we will have to destroy in ME3.

There is definatly a better side to them, and a batarian squadmate could really help us see that. Also, I hope we get to visit the batarian homeworld, finally see how the species really is, and even broker peace with them, and gain their aid against the Reapers.



A little off topic, but with all that in mind, I speculate that even the Reapers may not end up chaotic evil, but rather tragic villians.

[Undertone]

I would prefer tragic villains to chaotic evil. Any antagonist that doesn't have an underlying purpose or goal behind his actions other then "Destruction is cool" is a simple and stupid one.

You are indeed correct however that Bioware has been consistent on showing us batarians as negative as possible, whereas even though the other races also have negative qualities they have redeeming characters whether as NPC or as companions. I suppose Zulu is correct on this one, that it would be more emotionally engaging when the Batarians ally with everyone to fight the Reapers. I suppose there is also a possibility in which they ally themselves with the Reapers but that seems unlikely I suppose.

Modifié par Undertone, 24 janvier 2011 - 01:17 .

[Arijharn]

First, I agree completely with what Undertone has been saying.

Second, I agree completely with what General User is saying too.



The Systems Alliance does not have a responsibility to the Batarian people, it's sole duty is the protection and promotion of 'Systems Alliance values.' While extermination is the epitome of extreme, if elements of the Batarian Hegemony continue to operate in Citadel space and continue to flout the law, then the only 'legal' recourse would be invasion and to smash the Hegemony to pieces.



As responsible humans though, the Batarian Hegemony would at least get a stern warning from us first though, which is more than what they would expect if they were mass abducting salarian's.

[didymos1120]

Last Vizard wrote...
My point is that the Batarian race did not have a point in their history where they stood up for whats right and fought for the rights of those who had none.

Something you have absolutely no way of knowing, given that we have hardly any information on their history.  For all we know, such things did happen and either failed, or were reversed by subsequent events.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I don’t hate Batarians sure they look odd with four eyes but who wouldn’t? My Midior Shep doesn’t like them sense they butchered his family and screwed up him/herself and Talitha. Earth and Space Shep is weary of them because of their rep as slavers and tortures. But if all 3 run into decent Batrians they’ll help them if they’re not decent they’ll kill them. If BW made us have to select a Batarian like they did in ME2 get all 12 people no substitutes like I have the option of leaving one behind yet if I leave them behind I can’t choose someone else to fill that spot. So if they force us to get a batarains if he presents himself as decent and honest all sheps will give him a try and not leave him behind but they’ll sleep with one eye open just like they did with EDI and Legion until he can prove he is no threat. Basically it’s a case-by-case biases I hate Cerberus I disagree with Batarians.

[InvincibleHero]

There are some decent batarians just like there are some decent humans, Asari, Volus, Elcor, Turian, Krogan, Hanar, and so on. Not every one is evil and irredeemable in the Batarians.

[DPSSOC]

InvincibleHero wrote...

There are some decent batarians just like there are some decent humans, Asari, Volus, Elcor, Turian, Krogan, Hanar, and so on. Not every one is evil and irredeemable in the Batarians.

I ask you to point out 5.  I can think of 3 "decent" Batarians.  However I've always judged groups based on the representatives I encounter.  The majority of Albertans I've met are x so Albertans are x, and so on.  The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Batarians we encounter are scum who deserve to die; therefore Batarians are scum who deserve to die.  A simple system but it hasn't failed me so far.

[SandTrout]

General User wrote...
It’s not about placing a value on life either, it’s about obligation. 
 
The Systems Alliance as an institution has an obligation to its citizens to protect them from things like batarian slavers. As humanity’s self-appointed champion, Cerberus has a similar obligation.
 
Now, if the batarians will agree to release all human slaves and never again take another, great. If the Batarian Hegemony has to have a few cans of Torfan opened on them before they get the picture, so be it. If Khar’Shan has to be bombed back to the Stone Age, with billions losing their lives, so be it. If every single batarian has to die ala the Rachni, so be it.
 
Batarians taking humans as slaves must end.  How many people (human and batarian) have to die before that happens is up to the Hegemony.

Well put. I agree with this 100%.

[InvincibleHero]

DPSSOC wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

There are some decent batarians just like there are some decent humans, Asari, Volus, Elcor, Turian, Krogan, Hanar, and so on. Not every one is evil and irredeemable in the Batarians.

I ask you to point out 5.  I can think of 3 "decent" Batarians.  However I've always judged groups based on the representatives I encounter.  The majority of Albertans I've met are x so Albertans are x, and so on.  The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Batarians we encounter are scum who deserve to die; therefore Batarians are scum who deserve to die.  A simple system but it hasn't failed me so far.

You were not exposed to many batarians to begin with. Other than Anderson, Chakwas, & Joker most humans you met were criminals or scum in some way. does that make every human so? Nope fallacy of video games. You need protagonists and the game provides.

Anto and the Merc Captain fixing the gunship seemed decent enough. They were doing their job and didn't seem racist to me. Maybe they were slavers in their side job though.

[Sajuro]

Last Vizard wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Way too many people are PC, I'll judge a whole race on its history, Batarian culture is backwards and it sounds corrupt.... Batarians are natural bad guys.

Then so is humanity, if we're going on history.

Damn straight Humanity is corrupt, Look at America, some very bad things are happening to their peoples rights and it seems they don't see where its going.... who are the real terrorists? (not only the Batarians)

My point is that the Batarian race did not have a point in their history where they stood up for whats right and fought for the rights of those who had none.

How do you know there isn't? The Codex is only what the Alliance says about them, the Batarians have been around for longer than 25 years or however long humans have known about Aliens.