185 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil Johnny 666]

Orkboy wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Oh, and as for Cerberus just being misunderstood...hey, now HITLER was just misunderstood too fella.  Stalin too.  If you got to KNOW Mussolini, you'd see he was misunderstood too.  And Caligula as well.

Very true, but what anoys me is the complete 180 Bioware did with them. One minute they were evil then they're not.

They completely dropped the ball on the genophage too. Instead on going on with a darker and more mature approach, they went from stillbirths to "but it only affects fertility, there's not even a nervous system developped yet". That's not what Wrex told me in ME1... Way for friggin huge and obvious retcons. It's not as if Ashley went from a brunette to blonde or something...

[Ryzaki]

Yeah and the genophage contradicts itself. One moment they say it's about fertility rates the next they mention the bodies of thousands of babies that never lived.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[samurai crusade]

ME2 also states that the the Krogan don't like to reveal medical data. So unless some Salarian STG group did follow-up tests... the effects of the Genophage is left to assumption. Wrex may have believed he was correct when he said what he said... he was a mercenary... you can't take his word for cold-hard-fact. He is not a doctor or a scientist. For lack of a better term, he's only human and makes mistakes.

[Evil Johnny 666]

samurai crusade wrote...

ME2 also states that the the Krogan don't like to reveal medical data. So unless some Salarian STG group did follow-up tests... the effects of the Genophage is left to assumption. Wrex may have believed he was correct when he said what he said... he was a mercenary... you can't take his word for cold-hard-fact. He is not a doctor or a scientist. For lack of a better term, he's only human and makes mistakes.

Woah, you're telling us the bodies of a thousand of dead babies isn't cold-hard-fact? Mercenary or not, I believe no one can ignore such thing. How is that assumptions? How can anyone believe the genophage provoked thousands of dead bodies while it didn't? It's just a shameless obvious retcon.

[apples44]

Seriously, are you people really this dense? How can you say that ME2 didn't advance the plot? This is a standard trilogy story arc. It's like saying The Empire Strikes Back was a pointless movie that didn't move anything forward. You can't jump from ME1 to ME3, there would be no story at all. They might as well have just made one Mass Effect and no more.

Mass Effect 1 in the overall story arc was the exposition -- the introduction of the central enemy. Mass Effect 2 is the rising action and personal challenge, which puts our protagonist in a very low place -- i.e. he dies, people he trusted turn their back on him, he's given a suicide mission, etc. It's basically when the odds seem the worst. Mass Effect 3 is the climax and resolution -- basically what the first two games led up to. By eliminating the middle, the story dies. Each game is it's own story, and part of a larger story arc.

ME2 was a fantastic game, and if you don't think so, then why are you here? Go QQ at the Halo forums or something. Being ignorant, self-entitled brats doesn't do anything but give trolls a place to feed.

Modifié par apples44, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:09 .

[samurai crusade]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Woah, you're telling us the bodies of a thousand of dead babies isn't cold-hard-fact? Mercenary or not, I believe no one can ignore such thing. How is that assumptions? How can anyone believe the genophage provoked thousands of dead bodies while it didn't? It's just a shameless obvious retcon.

I'm merely saying that every topic in ME is left pretty vague.   As the series grows we are given more information. Some of it contradicts stuff that was said by someone previously.     Each person in the galaxy has their own opinion and has their own set of facts or what they think are facts.     Until Mordin gives me hard data and numbers.... everything I hear in the game is neither fact or fiction... it is one characters opinion based upon their experiences and upbringing.

[Evil Johnny 666]

AwesomeName wrote...

But didn't Mordin say that the central nervous systems of those babies don't ever form to begin with, therefore they were never really alive to begin with? (as in, no more alive than a brainless plant)

stillborn [ˈstɪlˌbɔːn]adj1. (Medicine / Pathology) (of a fetus) dead at birth

Hmm... seems like a pretty advanced central nervous system to me.

That's what Mordin said, but that's not what Wrex said. Wrex said a good number died at stillbirth while others didn't form.

samurai crusade wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Woah,
you're telling us the bodies of a thousand of dead babies isn't
cold-hard-fact? Mercenary or not, I believe no one can ignore such
thing. How is that assumptions? How can anyone believe the genophage
provoked thousands of dead bodies while it didn't? It's just a shameless
obvious retcon.

I'm merely saying that every
topic in ME is left pretty vague.   As the series grows we are given
more information. Some of it contradicts stuff that was said by someone
previously.     Each person in the galaxy has their own opinion and has
their own set of facts or what they think are facts.     Until Mordin
gives me hard data and numbers.... everything I hear in the game is
neither fact or fiction... it is one characters opinion based upon their
experiences and upbringing.

I don't know how anyone can misunderstand stillbirths with no development at all. Even more considering it's both. It's a plague that affects an entire race, something which plagued them for years. How is that a vague subject? How can a member of such race be ill-informed about such an important problem they face? They're going extinct! How can Wrex not know what the genophage is about? That would also mean he never encountered a Krogan who thought otherwise. How can a race be not informed about such an important problem? I really, really don't dig this at all. Eh, you're telling me someone's experience about a dead baby isn't good, because a scientific says that it causes no stillbirth without actually seeing it himself? What about the mother who gives birth to a dead baby? Why would we loose time learning about the genophage in ME1 if it's all false?

My bet is Bioware didn't want to deal having a character in your squad who's basically a murderer. My guess is that they wanted for him to have a more defendable stance, which stillbirths would have made impossible.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:37 .

[Jacen987]

apples44 wrote...

Seriously, are you people really this dense? How can you say that ME2 didn't advance the plot? This is a standard trilogy story arc. It's like saying The Empire Strikes Back was a pointless movie that didn't move anything forward. You can't jump from ME1 to ME3, there would be no story at all. They might as well have just made one Mass Effect and no more.

Mass Effect 1 in the overall story arc was the exposition -- the introduction of the central enemy. Mass Effect 2 is the rising action and personal challenge, which puts our protagonist in a very low place -- i.e. he dies, people he trusted turn their back on him, he's given a suicide mission, etc. It's basically when the odds seem the worst. Mass Effect 3 is the climax and resolution -- basically what the first two games led up to. By eliminating the middle, the story dies. Each game is it's own story, and part of a larger story arc.

ME2 was a fantastic game, and if you don't think so, then why are you here? Go QQ at the Halo forums or something. Being ignorant, self-entitled brats doesn't do anything but give trolls a place to feed.

<_
Even logic defies this statement.The Reaper Attack in ME3 is a direct result of the events in the End on ME2.

ME1 Shepard stops the Reaper vanguard and his puppet army.By this act he draws the attentian of the so called gods to humanaty.The Gods do not want to exterminate all arganic life,they want to impose order on it,they want to clean up the mess that is organic evolution.In a sense they stear evolution along the path they desire.And then they elevate the chosen Species to "Godhood"Aka Prothen----Collector.Ofcourse doing so actually sterilizes the species own ability to evolve and grow.

In ME2,theyre "evolving" humans.The Husk,the Scions,the Pretorians.All experiment with Human DNA to bring our species into godhood,the larva.A prosses that would have dauered decades ,if not hundred of years.

Shepard again stopped their plans,an as a result of this second setback comes the diract attack in ME3.As a result to the failure using underlings like geth and collectors..The Reapers are machines,they are patient,and they were patiant before.But Shepards continuas medling has forced them to act prematurely,bodly.And perhaps that will cause their downfall.

ME1-->ME2---ME3 Causality

[Jacen987]

samurai crusade wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Woah, you're telling us the bodies of a thousand of dead babies isn't cold-hard-fact? Mercenary or not, I believe no one can ignore such thing. How is that assumptions? How can anyone believe the genophage provoked thousands of dead bodies while it didn't? It's just a shameless obvious retcon.

I'm merely saying that every topic in ME is left pretty vague.   As the series grows we are given more information. Some of it contradicts stuff that was said by someone previously.     Each person in the galaxy has their own opinion and has their own set of facts or what they think are facts.     Until Mordin gives me hard data and numbers.... everything I hear in the game is neither fact or fiction... it is one characters opinion based upon their experiences and upbringing.

Please,is was ever a metaphor.They were never any children corpses.Its a sterility plague.Like mass Vasectomy

\\\\Thousand of Krogan,were never concieved,where nature would say otherwise.So in a sence their murderes.

<_<

Modifié par Jacen987, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:38 .

[Iakus]

vanslyke85 wrote...

Yea all true...but this is the FINAL game.  They can't just leave stuff up in the air like that.  anyways that's my opinion.  

Unfortunately, since we have no idea (yet) what's going to be in ME 3, all speculation about what ME 2 will mean for it is, well, speculation.  What we do have is how ME 1 relates to ME 2.  This involved:

The destruction of the Normandy.  Shep killed.

The scattering of Shepard's crew

Nearly half of Shepard's old crew undergoing bizzare personality transformations

Pretty much everything Shepard did aside from actually preventing the end of galactic civilization being marginalized.  The PS3 comic only emphasizes this.

Say what you will about ME 2 being a lead-in for ME 3, but it makes a really poor followup to ME 1.  This does not fill me with confidence about ME 2 (or ME 1 for that matter) tying into ME 3.

 Honestly, it would not suprise me one bit if the SR 2 gets blown up and the ME 2 squad gets scattered across the galaxy (again)

Hmm, I wonder what the circumstances would be to have Miranda or Jack accuse Shep of being a traitor and saying "You betrayed everything we stood for!"

Modifié par iakus, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:53 .

[ianmcdonald]

AwesomeName wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

Very true, but what anoys me is the complete 180 Bioware did with them. One minute they were evil then they're not.

There was a 180?  The only difference is, before we knew they were the bad guys, and hardly knew anything about them... Now, they're still the bad guys, but since we know them better, we understand that, from their point of view, they're not... That's not a 180, we just know more about them now.

I can't remember who said the following (I'm paraphrasing), but they made an interesting point about creating villians: "If you want to create an interesting villian, you have to understand that, from their point of view, they are the good guy.  They aren't evil for the sake of it"

You, my friend, get it.

[Evil Johnny 666]

AwesomeName wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

stillborn [ˈstɪlˌbɔːn]adj1. (Medicine / Pathology) (of a fetus) dead at birth

Hmm... seems like a pretty advanced central nervous system to me.

That's what Mordin said, but that's not what Wrex said. Wrex said a good number died at stillbirth while others didn't form.

Like I said, perhaps what Mordin is saying is that none of those babies that die ever have a central nervous system to begin with...  Which, for a soft sci-fi explanation, might make it consistent with what Wrex is saying.

That'd be impossible. A fetus can't exist without any nervous system as it is essential to keeping up the development. They'd already be dead before birth, which isn't the definition of a stillbirth.

[AllenShepard]

We could just assume that the first Genophage caused stillbirth and the 2nd one prevented pregnancy. That seems logical.

[Jacen987]

Yea all true...but this is the FINAL game.  They can't just leave stuff up in the air like that.  anyways that's my opinion. 

Unfortunately, since we have no idea (yet) what's going to be in ME 3, all speculation about what ME 2 will mean for it is, well, speculation.  What we do have is how ME 1 relates to ME 2.  This involved:

The destruction of the Normandy.  Shep killed.

Good concept,mediocre execution.If it wasnt for LOTSB,we would have never seen Shepard acting appropriately.

The scattering of Shepard's crew.Nearly half of Shepard's old crew undergoing bizzare personality transformations

Its called change and its actually pretty normal and understandable.If youl've ever lost someone you'd know.People's emotional state could range from joy and happiness to anger and irritation.

Pretty much everything Shepard did aside from actually preventing the end of galactic civilization being marginalized.  The PS3 comic only emphasizes this.

Really Nostadamus.Tell us please what happens in ME3,cause you;'ve obviously played it.

Say what you will about ME 2 being a lead-in for ME 3, but it makes a really poor followup to ME 1.  This does not fill me with confidence about ME 2 (or ME 1 for that matter) tying into ME 3.

It makes for a really good sequel to a really good game.Its not just more of the same,it explores a different plot structure,and it evolves all major plotlines.On top of that it does,what every good sequel should.Brings the plot to a more personal character-based tale.IE Empire Strickes Back.

I only wish some plot concepts were better explored,i favor of others.

 

Honestly, it would not suprise me one bit if the SR 2 gets blown up and the ME 2 squad gets scattered across the galaxy (again)

<_

Hmm, I wonder what the circumstances would be to have Miranda or Jack accuse Shep of being a traitor and saying "You betrayed everything we stood for!"

-_-What a incredible,irreversable cinic.....

Modifié par Jacen987, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Well, I just youtubed a bit and there is it

"Adjusts fertility rate". Stillbirths has nothing to do with sterility. If there are stillbirths, that means there was fertility. Though Wrex did say some didn't even get that far, he still said thousands die of stillbirth, meaning it's not just about fertility like Mordin says clearly in ME2.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[cachx]

Through the recruitment / loyalty missions, we got to learn and
experience a lot of stuff related to the ME universe, including stuff
like:

+The fate of migrant fleet
+The fate of true/heretic geth
+The escalating conflict between the previous 2
+The Krogan culture and how they're dealing with the genophage (wich can vary depending on ME1 decisions).
+Life on the terminus systems (Illium, Omega) or "why is the council is scared ****less of it".
+The various merc groups.
+Cerberus, and more stuff they had done.
+The Shadow Broker

And that's not counting the whole Collector plan and all that it tells us about the Reapers.

Quoting myself from another thread. I really don't have anything else on this subject. You may have not liked the hows, and that's fine. But this "not needed" or "pointless" crap is just plain wrong.

[Mudzr]

Well essentially no, ME2 isn't that important, but there are some very important things going in the background:



Obviously there will be a ton of spoilers bellow but I will try and be vague anyway.



*We found out a very important thing about the Reapers, which is possibly their motivation for you know... reaping

*We found out how to destroy one from the inside, this is probably how we are going to kill the leader.

*We know that they were battled before, and we know that there are super weapons out there that we can use to fight them. LotSB hinted at this

*The collectors probably set us up for the main villians of ME3, which i'm thinking will be similuar to them. It also introduces several new minions so it's not just husks any more. Also it explains husks a bit

*We potentially have the geth (with the overlord DLC providing a way for renegade players)/ krogan / quarians on our side. ME2 also confirms the postion of the Rachni

*We also have the vorcha and the drell, both races are very interesting. The drell look like a set up for us to get their aid and the hanar, which would be awesome, whilst the racism towards the vorcha could be a possibility for us to stop and therefore recruit them to our side against the Reapers

*We have been introduced to major players in the universe, from TIM and Aria to the Shadow Broker, aswell as their organisations. They will probably be very important allies/ enemies in ME3

*The stance of the council has been revealed, yes it's annoying how they reacted but it leads to what we will spend time likely doing in ME3

*We have met a hand ful of civilian batarians, which could be a sign of the more sympathetic aspects of their species and a possible allience for ME3

*Several technoliges and aspects of the universe have been explained, we have also seen through places like illium how the citizen live and get more of a view on the world of ME

The normandy has been upgraded, with the crew and EDI probably fully equipped and prepared

*Pre-existing characters such as Garrus, Tali, Dr Chawkwas and the Joker have been fleshed out much more

*Several plot points in ME3 were forshadowed, like the whole darkspace thing, so it wont just come out of the blue in the next game

*Shepard developed has a character, aswell as his relationship with his crew/ partner

*In a meta sense, the gameplay has set a standard for ME3 whilst testing the waters, if it wasn't for the brakethroughs of the latest game, ME3 may not have more RPG features

*AND the most important point- we have been introduced to Blasto, who will be the one to destroy the Reapers in ME3

[Evil Johnny 666]

We learned plenty of things about the universe, sure, but nothing really built upon ME1's story nor brought that story forward in a meaningful way. All we get is vagueness and nothing that really stands on its own.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Jacen987 wrote...
It makes for a really good sequel to a really good game.Its not just more of the same,it explores a different plot structure,and it evolves all major plotlines.On top of that it does,what every good sequel should.Brings the plot to a more personal character-based tale.IE Empire Strickes Back.

I only wish some plot concepts were better explored,i favor of others.

Only Empire Strikes Back was about important characters. The only thing we learned about Shepard is that he died and came back to life, at the beginning of the game. Every character in your crew is expandable. The only thing ME2 did is deepen the universe, rather than bringing the story ME1 introduced further, like Empire Strikes Back.

[Bryy_Miller]

dp

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:55 .

[Bryy_Miller]

xnoxiousx wrote...
 did not advance story.

How, exactly? It advanced every aspect of the Mass Effect universe: the Genophage, the Reapers, Cereberus, psionics, various cultures of the various species. 

EDIT: Then I read Mudzr's post. Much more thought out than mine.

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

We learned plenty of things about the universe, sure, but nothing really built upon ME1's story nor brought that story forward in a meaningful way.

... what exactly were you expecting to happen?