187 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You don't need a morality meter to have consequences. There is no morality meter in RL.

Actually there is moral meter in real life what create consequences. It's called laws and goverment forced police forces. They make sure, if you do something too unmoral, you will pay for it. Also if you break the law, it can have long time affect you future as consequence. Now is law same as moral, not exactly, but it's based moral's behavior as what is right and wrong. We may not see the moral metter as visual ways in real life, but it's still there. Also it's limiting our options as do something, because actions can have consequences. As do we needed it, depense everyone opinion, because games aren't based real life rules.

Modifié par Lumikki, 24 janvier 2011 - 06:51 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You don't need a morality meter to have consequences. There is no morality meter in RL.

Actually there is moral meter in real life what create consequences. It's called laws and goverment forced police forces. They make sure, if you do something too unmoral, you will pay for it. Also if you break the law, it can have long time affect you future as consequence. Now is law same as moral, not exactly, but it's based moral's behavior as what is right and wrong. We may not see the moral metter as visual ways in real life, but it's still there. Also it's limiting our options as do something, because actions can have consequences. As do we needed it, depense everyone opinion, because games aren't based real life rules.

Except we know the law. And the law doesn't really limits us. Look at criminals, they weren't limited by laws, eh? If I don't want to break the law, there's reasons, there's reasons to everything I do. Like there's reasons for what I want to do in ME2, except the latter really limits me.

[The Spamming Troll]

shepards a spectre. spectres dont know the law. they ARE the law.

[Evil Johnny 666]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

shepards a spectre. spectres dont know the law. they ARE the law.

I love how this is posted by someone called The Spamming Troll:lol: But I agree!

[Lumikki]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Except we know the law. And the law doesn't really limits us. Look at criminals, they weren't limited by laws, eh? If I don't want to break the law, there's reasons, there's reasons to everything I do. Like there's reasons for what I want to do in ME2, except the latter really limits me.

I was talking real world there, because poster sayed little like moral doesn't have consequences in our real world. It does. If you kill someone, I'm sure you learn fast how you life is limited.

Mass Effect how ever, is other question, because there doens't have to have moral, but that doesn't mean it can't have moral consequences. People who don't like moral consequences are usually people who have very low moral in the first place.  Little like criminals doesn't repect the law much. It's same thing. How ever, total freedom to do what ever you want, doesn't exist in reality, just in fantasy.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

shepards a spectre. spectres dont know the law. they ARE the law.

Actually you are wrong here. Specters are ABOVE the law, they don't uphold the law.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 janvier 2011 - 12:47 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Except the moral consequences of Mass Effect 2 are not comparable at all to those of real life, and don't make any sense in the first place. No one ever explained to me why I couldn't do certain things even if I want to, and even if I can do other things as much as bad or as good.

[joltmajor]

I want to be able to have a racist Shepard. I want him to be kind and caring to almost everyone he comes across, and be almost always agreeable--but I want him to genocide the Batarians into oblivion.

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

shepards a spectre. spectres dont know the law. they ARE the law.

Actually you are wrong here. Specters are ABOVE the law, they don't uphold the law.

im wrong here? wouldnt you think someone who makes the law, is above the law?

also, go rent judge dredd.

[Lumikki]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Except the moral consequences of Mass Effect 2 are not comparable at all to those of real life, and don't make any sense in the first place. No one ever explained to me why I couldn't do certain things even if I want to, and even if I can do other things as much as bad or as good.

Of course it does, because moral consequences means what you do now can have consequences in later. Meaning if you save or kill someone, it can later affect you gameplay. Total freedom what you pursue means like simulated open sandbox. How ever, Mass Effect is more like story where you play role and all choises have consequences.

My point is that you don't like limit your choises, but without consequences hole story would be just crap. When you play role, some of you choises will limit you by closing your options. Because they are consequences of you choise. Meaning if you are too much paragon it can close "some" of you renegade choises. It doesn't close tries, but it can close the end result.

Now you may say, of course we have some consequences, but where you draw the line, then it's fine to have consequences and when you want to ignore it?

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:28 .

[Lumikki]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

im wrong here? wouldnt you think someone who makes the law, is above the law?

also, go rent judge dredd.

My point was that Specters are send to deal situations what law can't handle and Specters don't have to respect laws while doing it. Cops uphold the laws in Mass Effect universe, Specters solve problem what no-one else can, anyway they like to do it.

Judge Dredd was basicly cop.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:07 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Lumikki wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

im wrong here? wouldnt you think someone who makes the law, is above the law?

also, go rent judge dredd.

My point was that Specters are send to deal situations what law can't handle and Specters don't have to respect laws while doing it. Cops uphold the laws in Mass Effect universe, Specters solve problem what no-one else can, anyway they like to do it.

Judge Dredd was basicly cop.

uh, i dont know if your agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me, or if your just saying exactly what im saying in a much more confusing way.

judge dredd wasnt a cop because cops follow laws.

spectres are a joke. the only spectres ive ever met are dead, or double agents. i certainly dont care to be a spectre in ME3. and im sure the reapers dont care what i am either.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Except the moral consequences of Mass Effect 2 are not comparable at all to those of real life, and don't make any sense in the first place. No one ever explained to me why I couldn't do certain things even if I want to, and even if I can do other things as much as bad or as good.

Of course it does, because moral consequences means what you do now can have consequences in later. Meaning if you save or kill someone, it can later affect you gameplay. Total freedom what you pursue means like simulated open sandbox. How ever, Mass Effect is more like story where you play role and all choises have consequences.

My point is that you don't like limit your choises, but without consequences hole story would be just crap. When you play role, some of you choises will limit you by closing your options. Because they are consequences of you choise. Meaning if you are too much paragon it can close "some" of you renegade choises. It doesn't close tries, but it can close the end result.

Now you may say, of course we have some consequences, but where you draw the line, then it's fine to have consequences and when you want to ignore it?

Except the consequences of your choices are not linked in ANY way to the actual choices. The consequences are linked to numbers, numbers means nothing. A number is a number, there's no meaning behind them besides the gradation they represent. The consequences are not linked to any choice itself, but to the number of certain types of choices you had. So, if I've been playing a truly badass dude in ME2, through and through, and at some point I feel like defending a Quarian and/or being kind to a woman who lost her child, I can't kill Samara anymore? Tell me how related both choices were to that action of killing Samara? They aren't related, it's the fact that you did two highly paragon things while you should be 100% renegade in order to kill Samara. It's like, "hey those random numbers say you can't do this" and not "you can't do this, because the choice you made earlier had this or that direct consequences which makes you unable to do this", but then, such thing should be obvious in the first place.

Any killer has to be 100% evil to commit murder? The main character of The Killer works for the triad and kills in cold blood for money, yet during the movie he's on his last job trying to get money to save a woman's eyes, befriends a police officer and save little girl from danger. Why wouldn't Shepard think that Samara is an incredibly dangerous individual and think she shouldn't be doing what she does and kill her, even if your Shepard is not that bad? How would that be impossible? ME2 doesn't even try to connect unrelated events by saying you can't do this in the latter event because it's a consequence of your actions of the first (unrelated) event. No, worse, they attribute numbers to unrelated events so they can have an influence on EVERY other unrelated event. How is that logical? It's not, it's stupid. Why people like me whine about ME2's terrible moral system is because there's no reason given to not be able to do something. And hell, even those numbers are categorized in arbitrary groups which bears no meaning to any action you can do.

[Schneidend]

I assume killing Samara is an example, because you always have the option to kill Samara regardless of Paragon/Renegade values.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You don't need a morality meter to have consequences. There is no morality meter in RL.

Actually there is moral meter in real life what create consequences. It's called laws and goverment forced police forces. They make sure, if you do something too unmoral, you will pay for it. Also if you break the law, it can have long time affect you future as consequence. Now is law same as moral, not exactly, but it's based moral's behavior as what is right and wrong. We may not see the moral metter as visual ways in real life, but it's still there. Also it's limiting our options as do something, because actions can have consequences. As do we needed it, depense everyone opinion, because games aren't based real life rules.

It's not a "meter" nor is it connected by morals. Unjust laws exist just as just ones...laws aren't morality.

Not to meniont that teh law can only punish you for what it knows you did. It's not some omni-present, judgmental uber-force.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

Of course it does, because moral consequences means what you do now can have consequences in later. Meaning if you save or kill someone, it can later affect you gameplay. Total freedom what you pursue means like simulated open sandbox. How ever, Mass Effect is more like story where you play role and all choises have consequences.

Adn why exactly do you need a morality meter for that?
Consequnces can happen without any meter...

[Raizo]

It seemed like a good thing on paper back when ME1 first came out and I amit that I did not mind it all that much in ME1 but it now feels very limited and poorly thought out now that I have beaten ME2 a few times. Essentailly you have to pick morality path, Paragon or Renegade and stick to it for the rest of the game, so much for playing the game your way and making the decisions you want to make.
It's not a very big issue for me since I always go down the Paragon route but I am aware of the limitations that it places on other gamers who would rather hover around the moraly grey mark. I also don't like being rushed to max out my Paragon metre in order to resolve cerain plot related confrontations or suffer the consequences.

Modifié par Raizo, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:53 .

[Sandbox47]

Actually, the paragon renegade system is the best simulation for real thoughtprocessing I've seen in years. Last I saw that came close was the Ego and the Id by Sigmund Freud. Because, though you might know that you can say something, it doesn't mean that you will. If you are acustomed to saying bad-ass things and generally being a renegade then you will look at yourself that way and eventually you will pass up on paragon opportunities. And if you are too unsecure in yourself then you won't dare mentioning either the renegade or the paragon option.

I don't like it but I understand it.

[vimpel]

I don't have troubles with paragon\\renegade meter. BUT i want more dialogue options.

[Markinator_123]

They should just get rid of the paragon/renegade system. ME2's persuasion system was terrible. Consequences should be related to the event themselves. An unrelated event should not determine the outcome of another event. That is just ridiculous and makes no sense. Lumikki why in the world are you defending this atrocious system. Bioware is not paying you any money. Just forget about it.

[Lumikki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Of course it does, because moral consequences means what you do now can have consequences in later. Meaning if you save or kill someone, it can later affect you gameplay. Total freedom what you pursue means like simulated open sandbox. How ever, Mass Effect is more like story where you play role and all choises have consequences.

Adn why exactly do you need a morality meter for that?
Consequnces can happen without any meter...

If you mean visual meter or numbers flowting. You are right those I don't need at all.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[Lumikki]

Markinator_123 wrote...

ME2's persuasion system was terrible.

ME2 doesn't have any persuation system, it has moral based reputation system what tracks you moral decissions to create consequences.

Consequences should be related to the event themselves. An unrelated event should not determine the outcome of another event. That is just ridiculous and makes no sense. Lumikki why in the world are you defending this atrocious system. Bioware is not paying you any money. Just forget about it.

How would you count player decissions and create system what cause consequences. What's the attribute you are counting?

Because yes, you could made it also by hand design from every choise to every consequences and tailor it. How ever, that's hard work, to count every decission made and then create consequences by hand into game design. What Bioware tryed to do is more general consequences system, what counts players choises. Again what attribute you would count?

More clear, let say there is 10 000 choises in game. This mean 10 000 variables where all past variables can affect all future choises. That's huge matrix of choises and consequences.

Or you could try to count players decission by using some kind of attribute system, based "what kind" of choise player is choosing. Let then those counted attributes affects player future as consequences. Not perfect, but better than no consequences and alot easyer than try to do it the hard ways.

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 janvier 2011 - 03:19 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

ME2's persuasion system was terrible.

ME2 doesn't have any persuation system, it has moral based reputation system what tracks you moral decissions to create consequences.

Consequences should be related to the event themselves. An unrelated event should not determine the outcome of another event. That is just ridiculous and makes no sense. Lumikki why in the world are you defending this atrocious system. Bioware is not paying you any money. Just forget about it.

How would you count player decissions and create system what cause consequences. What's the attribute you are counting?

Because yes, you could made it also by hand design from every choise to every consequences and tailor it. How ever, that's hard work, to count every decission made and then create consequences by hand into game design. What Bioware tryed to do is more general consequences system, what counts players choises. Again what attribute you would count?

More clear, let say there is 10 000 choises in game. This mean 10 000 variables where all past variables can affect all future choises. That's huge matrix of choises and consequences.

Or you could try to count players decission by using some kind of attribute system, based "what kind" of choise player is choosing. Let then those counted attributes affects player future as consequences. Not perfect, but better than no consequences and alot easyer than try to do it the hard ways.

If you can't make a consequence system that works, don't do one. It may be hard work, but that's preferable to an abortion. It's like, if you plan on making a bus for 30 people, don't limit yourself to a Lada and try to get 30 people in, that's even worse than not trying it at all since a disaster is bound to happen. ME2 would've been better off with no consequences to your choices at all, than crap that doesn't even work and just makes things worse than actually do something good.

Schneidend wrote...

I assume killing Samara is an example,
because you always have the option to kill Samara regardless of
Paragon/Renegade values.

The choice wa greyed out in all my games.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:02 .

[Nohvarr]

To me it makes sense that people would judge your words based on your past history. You are big news, and information travels fast. A modification might be in order, but the current system isn't anything I'd call game breaking.

[Vena_86]

JKoopman wrote...

Mezzil wrote...

Actually it's suppose to be a "repuation" meter.

What he said.

Paragon/Renegade isn't a "morality" meter, nor does it represent Good vs. Evil. It's simply an "Are you known as a fair and just diplomat or a takes-no-nonsense hardass?" meter.

And it kind of makes sense that it influences your ability to persuade others. For example, if you're known for being a law-abiding goody-two-shoes and you try to intimidate someone, it may not work as well as if you're known for putting bullets in people at the slightest provocation.

So in other words we have the decision of beeing the stereotype good guy or the unlikeable jackass at the beginning of the game, and from there on you have very little choice on how your character acts, unless you want to take the penalties.

What I am known for should have nothing to do with future actions. The system in ME2 promotes the creation of predictable characters. When you can predict actions and dialogue of a character than that is a flat and boring character.

Interesting characters have their decisions based on many layers of personality and experience that are not an open book to any random observer. In ME2 you have the creation of interesting characters that might even reflect your own personality confilicting with the game mechanics (lost loyalty -> dead team members) and that is what pisses people of. Your Shepard is encouraged to have less character depth than Zaeed and Grunt by this "reputation" meter in a very unintuitive and annoying way.