187 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil Johnny 666]

BassChamber wrote...

Sorry but the system is flawed. Player experience wise, it is annoying to know selecting neutral dialogue options is going to spoil your score; because that is what morality is: an score.

I mean, the better the score (doesnt matter if paragon of renegade), the better results you will have. And that is flawed when applied to character personality.

That's the fundemental problem of the system; numbers. The numbers should only be in the coding, an action should result in posssibilities or related actions, this has nothing to do with numbers as morality has nothing to do with numbers in real life.

Plus, I don't get the reward thing Lumikki constantly brings up. There shouldn't be rewards at all, or they should be almost non-existent. But that's the flaw to your logic about why the ME2 system is better. You're saying only metagamers would feel forced and limited, yet you say ME1 offers a "bypass" option. It's pretty similar if you ask me, anyone choosing charm or intimate points because he doesn't want to be diplomat-like is metagaming, like anyone who doesn't choose renegade options all the time because he wants to be a full renegade is metagaming. Only ME1's metagaming is about character stats, and the other is about conversation options. Metagaming on ME2 is worse, because it's much more simple to do, and easier to get into it. To do it, you just have to push your thumstick up or down in every conversations, in ME1, you need to attribute points correctly every time you level up. It's like, right in your face in ME2. Plus, like I said, dialogue options are tied to different personallities, so if you don't want a scizo, you need to choose the same option almost all the time. How is this giving rewards? How is something that requires no effort to do gives a reward? You need effort for a reward. In ME1, the effort is what your character don't get while you give charm points, or what your character don't get while you give hack points. There's no effort in ME2, no reward, no nothing.

I really don't get how metagaming can be worse in ME1, like you said metagamers want the positive result, it's easy as ever in ME2. It's even more promoted.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:28 .

[Capeo]

Lumikki wrote...

Okey, let me explain.

First you say "maintain all you squads loyalty". Why you should be able to make them all loyalty in first place? Also when you look as reward (in this case loyalty) it makes you metagamer, because you are looking game system to justify you choises. Roleplayer playes the role allways, it doesn't matter to roleplayer if someone isn't loyal, because it's the consequence of the role played.

Yes, if you use character skill based system like persuation, you can still roleplay well all roles. How ever, only maybe 2% of players can really do. Most of us would just use the system our benefit as metagamer to get what we want. The positive result. Exactly what you self where looking when you did bring the loyalty example. Player doesn't have to follow pre-define path, it can just happen because it's players role. Actually if you start following the path because you believe it's best way to play, you are again metagamer. Because that what metagamers do.

Yes, npcs does treath you differently. Example, try to compare paragon choises in left side dialog and paragon choise in right side dialog, they result different end result, because the moral reputation system.

You're not getting me.  I didn't say you should be able to maintain your squads loyalty as a given.  What I said is there is no real roleplaying going on if the only avenue to do so is to have your personality predefined by the game.  Understand?  I should be able to be a charming jerk or an honorable but intimidating person in an RPG.  There is no choice here.  You can't truly craft a character the way you want to.

And maybe you don't get what I mean by NPCs treating you differently.  In the other games I mentioned your reputation actually proceeds you.  When you talk to that NPC the dialog options will be different from the beginning.  They may not even want to talk to you at all.  In ME2, no matter your reputation the dialog options are the same you just may have a Paragon or Renegade option to finish the conversation.  The NPCs in no way actually react to your reputation beforehand.

[JKoopman]

I don't think either side in this argument is going to see things from the perspective of the other. At this point, I would recommend that everyone who wishes to successfully roleplay a convincing and balanced human being instead of a walking moral cliche while not horribly gimping their character's pool of potential actions should simply do what I did; use Gibbed's Save Editor (possible even on the Xbox) to give your character(s) 1000 points in both Paragon and Renegade from the start. Then you can roleplay your character the way you want to without the game dictating what you can do and say based on an arbitrary number.

Modifié par JKoopman, 27 janvier 2011 - 11:20 .

[Lumikki]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

I really don't get how metagaming can be worse in ME1, like you said metagamers want the positive result, it's easy as ever in ME2. It's even more promoted.

Actually I think you do get it, you just don't want to "accept" it.

From metagamers perspective, how ME2's two extreme path is better than ME1's persuation skill? They both are equal bad in those situations. How ever, there is only two extreme path in ME2, while every role can add metagaming with ME1 persuation skill. Meaning while it offers more freedom to roles, it's also offers more easyly abuse it.

Example, if in ME2 system we would hide the moral meter, paragon/renegade point gaining and mix the dialog choises orders little better, no-one would be able to use it for metagaming in ME2. How ever, you can't hide the persuation system, because it's ability get the positive result requires only put the point in skill system. I'm sure you understand the difference for metagamer. As for real roleplayer both are pretty much same, maybe ME1 would offer little more because more roles, but other hand only maybe 2% of players are real roleplayers.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 janvier 2011 - 11:52 .

[Sentox6]

Lumikki wrote...
Actually I think you do get it, you just don't want to "accept" it.

From metagamers perspective, how ME2's two extreme path is better than ME1's persuation skill? They both are equal bad in those situations. How ever, there is only two extreme path in ME2, while every role can add metagaming with ME1 persuation skill. Meaning while it offers more freedom to roles, it's also offers more easyly abuse it.

Example, if in ME2 system we would hide the moral meter, paragon/renegade point gaining and mix the dialog choises orders little better, no-one would be able to use it for metagaming in ME2. How ever, you can't hide the persuation system, because it's ability get the positive result requires only put the point in skill system. I'm sure you understand the difference for metagamer. As for real roleplayer both are pretty much same, maybe ME1 would offer little more because more roles, but other hand only maybe 2% of players are real roleplayers.

No, no, no.

First, you can't argue that ME2's system is less metagaming-friendly if changes A, B, and C, were made to it. That's ridiculous. The system is what it is, and that's what we're discussing.

For the dedicated metagamer, ME2's system is much easier. So long as you always choose the same path, you will always have the speech check route available to you. It's that simple. Keep picking from the same spot on the tree and you will always be able to achieve that "optimal" outcome. ME1's system requires them to either sacrifice their combat build or to play the game multiple times to get the 'free' points for speech skills.

It's the pure roleplayers who are hurt, because ME2's system can lock them out of the dialogue options they feel best reflect their Shepard because they're not 'consistent' enough by the game's standards.

Anyway, all this assumes that metagaming is a bad thing in a completely single-player game...

JKoopman wrote...

At this point, I would recommend that everyone who wishes to successfully roleplay a convincing and balanced
human being instead of a walking moral cliche while not horribly gimping their character's pool of potential actions should simply do what I did; use Gibbed's Save Editor (possible even on the Xbox) to give your character(s) 1000 points in both Paragon and Renegade from the start. Then you can roleplay your character the way you want to without the game dictating what you can do and say based on an arbitrary number.

+1

Modifié par Sentox6, 28 janvier 2011 - 01:03 .

[Lumikki]

I did not say ME2 is less metagaming-friendly if change A,B and C. I sayed it's less metagaming friendly even without any changes. How ever, it's allmost impossible for metagame if A, B and C change would have made. That's the different.

Metagaming is not neccasary bad, if someone doesn't care how good they roleplay is as long the game is fun, but don't use real roleplaying as excuse for you metagaming needs, that the point.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 janvier 2011 - 01:26 .

[Sentox6]

Lumikki wrote...

I did not say ME2 is less metagaming-friendly if change A,B and C. I sayed it's less metagaming friendly even without any changes. How ever, it's allmost impossible for metagame if A, B and C change would have made. That's the different.

I just can't begin to understand how you see it that way, if we assume the dedicated metagamer is not really concerned about the intricacies of roleplaying. That type player won't have any qualms about always choosing renegade or paragon, obviously. So with ME2's system, he doesn't have to compromise his combat build in any way, he just has to pay attention and choose top left blue or bottom left right whenever available

Lumikki wrote...

Metagaming
is not neccasary bad, if someone doesn't care how good they roleplay is
as long the game is fun, but don't use real roleplaying as excuse for
you metagaming needs, that the point.

Let's me give you two examples:

1) When Jack and Miranda confront each other post-loyalty missions, I choose to side with Miranda even though I have the Charm check available.
2) I shoot through the hostage to hit Vasir despite also having the Charm check available.

I don't think I'm using roleplaying to excuse metagaming here.

I do understand your point though, and I'm not saying either system is perfect (not by a long shot).

Modifié par Sentox6, 28 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .

[Lumikki]

Sentox6 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I did not say ME2 is less metagaming-friendly if change A,B and C. I sayed it's less metagaming friendly even without any changes. How ever, it's allmost impossible for metagame if A, B and C change would have made. That's the different.

I just can't begin to understand how you see it that way, if we assume the dedicated metagamer is not really concerned about the intricacies of roleplaying. That type player won't have any qualms about always choosing renegade or paragon, obviously. So with ME2's system, he doesn't have to compromise his combat build in any way, he just has to pay attention and choose top left blue or bottom left right whenever available

I sayed less metagaming friendly, because it's easy to make metagaming choises in ME1. Let me explain.

To know what dialog choise to make in ME2 you need to choose what option gives the max paragon or renegade points. That means you need to follow your choises what you make, if you make wrong choise you come back to save and redo the choise. This ways you find the optimal path in ME2. Pretty easy, but requires you keep eye of those flowting points. Only thing what helps is that most the time choises seem to be in right and left side in top and bottom in dialogs. How ever, it's not allways so..

Now same in ME1 requires you to keep persuation skill maxed all time and game will show the persuation in dialogs. So, everytime you see persuation, just choose that one and you get alllways better option, than without it. Meaning there is no possibility even do this wrong, because it's so automatic result. Just keep the skill points, and choose when game give the "color" choise. That's it. No need to think at all.

My point is that it's alot easyer in ME1 to know what to choose that it's in ME2. If you really metagame for optimal dialog result.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 janvier 2011 - 02:27 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

I don't get it, you're talking about optimizing role playing and you just said ME1 offers more roles... If metagaming is the problem, well, you say you're a roleplayer, then why is metagaming an issue? Who cares about people who don't care about roleplaying? They'll do what they want to do, meanwhile, ME2 is clearly a step down for us.



And no, there's nothing to "accept". You're saying every role can add metagaming in ME1, but that's the same thing with ME2! And no, that's not even true in ME1. You seem to forget that the skill system of ME1 is not identical to the one of ME2 except that it has charm and intimidate. There's hack, decryption and plenty of others. Hack and decryption can give you things, opportunities that characters without any point in those skills can't. So if you want every mission available and the more items to get, you need to choose those skills at the expense of others, like charm or intimidate, unless you want to be utterly incompetent in combat.



And hey, there's occasions in ME2 where you'd need to do a certain thing later, in order to get more renegade points even if you always chose the renegade option. Care to explain? And no, it's incredibly easy to maximize renegade or paragon points in ME2, it's simple. If there's an interrupt, use it, if there's 3 options, choose the extreme you want, top or bottom, if there's only two options, well it's still top or bottom. Maybe the bottom isn't renegade, but the renegade option will never be the top one, and vice versa. Always. It was designed as such, Bioware themselves said the paragon option is always the top one and all.

[Sentox6]

Lumikki wrote...
I sayed less metagaming friendly, because it's easy to make metagaming choises in ME1. Let me explain.

Alright, now I see what you're getting at.

I agree to a point, although most dialogues in ME2 are constructed so that you will get the maximum available points just by immediately progressing the dialogue and choosing persuasion checks when they appear. I can't think of more than a handful of exceptions. Plus, if you're a serious metagamer, then you go here, and it's basically irrelevant.

At any rate, this just illustrates why I don't like the idea of earning morality points from dialogue choices. I don't like metagaming being quite so interwoven with the roleplaying side. It'll be interesting to see what ME3 does.

[wizardryforever]

Really the problem I have with people saying that they can't have nuanced characters are overestimating the amount of times that Charm or Intimdate even come up, let alone change the game in any meaningful way.  The only times I can think of are the two fights, Jack/Miranda, and Tali/Legion.  Any other time and there really isn't anything to be missed, other than some cool dialogue that doesn't change much.  As for roleplaying, no game is going to let you play whatever role you want (no console/computer game anyway).  And I for one don't see anything wrong with the roles you are allowed to play in ME2.

Arguing that you can't play a nuanced character if you want to charm or intimidate doesn't make any sense, since the majority of the charm/intimidate checks are easy to make with only a little effort.  You don't have to completely devote your character's actions to one side in order to open them up.  Minor conversation options, like talking with the crew or random people on the street, only get you a couple of points for each option.  Only the big choices, like at the ends of loyalty missions, make much of a dent in your score.  Even then, you don't have to be completely consistent with your actions, you can miss one or two and still be extreme enough to unlock most of the persuasion options.  Even the neutral options give you half and half in paragon and renegade, so they progress you in both simultaneously.  Again, the only ones that you might have trouble unlocking would be the squadmate fights.  It's not that big of an issue, surely. 

[RAF1940]

It annoys me how you are essentially punished for not being fully Renegade/ Paragon.