93 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Liara, AKA the Shadow Broker gave me more intel in five minutes than Cerberus ever did throughout the whole game.



Also, I'm not a goddamn janitor.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Against the Reapers? I'd ally with the Batarians as well, if they'd be open to it.

The point is that the number of allies that you can gather is smaller than the number of potential allies you have. You'd have to be choosing Cerberus instead of someone else.

Why?

Are the Council Species suddenly going to refuse to fight or coordinate because they're asked to deal with a group they don't like or who doesn't like it?

Will the Batarian Hegemony refuse to work with the galaxy simply because the Migrant Fleet rallied first?

Is the Rachni Queen going to defect to the Reapers because Cerberus got recruited?

I haven't decided why yet, but I thought I'd need to add that limitation to make the question meaningful. If we could recruit everyone... well, I hate Cerberus, but I'm also a completionist and would still use them if it didn't mean giving them any more power. It's more a question of "Do you like/trust Cerberus" and less one of "will you use everyone you can."

[kazumasoju]

Hmm my Shep became completely rouge at the end, I don't think I'll be siding with Cerberus any time soon. Ive got my team behind me

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Liara, AKA the Shadow Broker gave me more intel in five minutes than Cerberus ever did throughout the whole game.

Liara gve you a lot of gossip, and did nothing to help you build a team or organize against the Collectors.

Cerberus gave you no real gossip, but acted towards and was instrumental in going against the Collectors (and making Liara the Shadow Broker in the first place).

Also, I'm not a goddamn janitor.

Then stop acting like one.

If you don't want to clean up Overlord, don't go and do Overlord. The galaxy won't end (namely by literary fiat for the ones who don't purchase/play the DLC), and you can rest assured that Cerberus can resolve it by blowing up the transmitter and taking their sweet time.

If you don't want to go after the Rachni escapees, then don't. There's no fertile queen among them, and they're largely in the middle of nowhere. They'll die of old age if nothing else.

If you don't want to go to Pragia (where you aren't even cleaning up a disaster), there's no reason but Jack's pleading eyes not to.

If you don't want to wage a shadow war of intelligence for them, don't deliver the data to Liara like a good errand boy (or girl).


The only 'clean up' you have to do is the Derilect Reaper, which is more accurately called a 'pick up.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reasons why you should 'waste your time' with Cerberus is for similar reasons that you wasted your time on them before: they still have a top-tier intelligence network, they still maintain and pursue high-value research projects that can benefit you, they still have an impressive network of operatives and companies to provide various resources, and most importantly they have the motivation and willingness to act, and act far sooner and with an eye for the places were critical small efforts can pay off big time.

Nicely summarized, and despite all of my Cerberus hate above, this is precisely while I'll work with them as long as it serves my purposes and doesn't threaten my goals. However, I have no intention of serving their purposes.

You serve their purpose by existing as Commander Shepard. Moreover, there isn't some negative sum game: what's good for Shepard's POV isn't necessarily bad for Cerberus, and what's good for Cerberus isn't necessarily bad for Shepard.

To reject cooperation because they benefit (serves their purpose) ignores the fact that all cooperation is based upon cooperation serving one's purpose. Even if one's purpose is to not be shot in the head if one refuses.

It would be better to say that 'I will not put Cerberus's purposes above my own, but if their purposes are aligned with mine then I will accept them.'

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Against the Reapers? I'd ally with the Batarians as well, if they'd be open to it.

The point is that the number of allies that you can gather is smaller than the number of potential allies you have. You'd have to be choosing Cerberus instead of someone else.

Why?

Are the Council Species suddenly going to refuse to fight or coordinate because they're asked to deal with a group they don't like or who doesn't like it?

Will the Batarian Hegemony refuse to work with the galaxy simply because the Migrant Fleet rallied first?

Is the Rachni Queen going to defect to the Reapers because Cerberus got recruited?

I haven't decided why yet, but I thought I'd need to add that limitation to make the question meaningful. If we could recruit everyone... well, I hate Cerberus, but I'm also a completionist and would still use them if it didn't mean giving them any more power. It's more a question of "Do you like/trust Cerberus" and less one of "will you use everyone you can."

If you think you can use someone, you already trust them enough to believe they can be reliably used.

You can, for example, trust Cerberus to the extent that the Reapers are bad for Humanity, and at a minimum they will do all they can to prevent Humans from being wiped out as well. While your faith in their willingness to put any effort, or even just not counter efforts, to help the rest of the galaxy may vary, this is something you can think about and plan for. (Like, say, framing a situation in which if Cerberus undermines others, Humanity suffers as well: in which case, Cerberus would not undermine others, even if it would otherwise want to).


On the other hand, I personally would not trust a genophage-cured Krogan hoard to be especially useful agaist the Reapers. I don't trust them to be reliable enough.



At this point, an 'ally limit' is arbitrary and itself meaningless. Likewise, false dichtomy's of either-or arrangements are likewise not helpful, because there are very good reasons why they shouldn't block cooperation as co-belligerants, if not allies. Until established by the game, it's rather silly to put such aftificial constrictions on ME3 alliances.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:37 .

[In Exile]

My Shepard has one goal: stop the reapers. That's the only thing that matters.Not to say that my Shepard is a renegade by any stretch... but when it comes down to making hard choices, what matters isn't idealism, but survival. Like with the Council choice - saving the Council would have been something my Shepard would have done...if there wasn't the issue of Sovereign, that mattered more than every single life at the Citadel at that point in time.

The Illusive Man wants to stop the reapers. That what matters. His habit of trying to get my Shepard killed, though, isn't exactly ideal.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:41 .

[AxoneNeurone]

I would be happy to dump them. I'd steal their new ship, take as many of the crew as I could, and do things my way. The Illusive Man is clearly incompetent, and I have the freaking Shadow Broker on my side. Hell yeah.



That said, if working with them is the only way to defeat the Reapers, then I will up until that point. But they're a means to an end; as soon as the threat has passed, it's bye-bye Mr. Illusive. Maybe he spent millions of dollars to bring me back, but hell, I didn't ask him to. Besides, he revived Shepard to be Shepard, and can hardly complain when Shepard starts acting like Shepard.



I'm going to say Shepard again because I don't think I've said it enough times.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Liara, AKA the Shadow Broker gave me more intel in five minutes than Cerberus ever did throughout the whole game.

Liara gve you a lot of gossip, and did nothing to help you build a team or organize against the Collectors.

Cerberus gave you no real gossip, but acted towards and was instrumental in going against the Collectors (and making Liara the Shadow Broker in the first place).

And you honestly don't think that if she can access information about factions and individuals that easily, she can come up with something useful if needed?

Also, gathering info on a team shouldn't that difficult for someone in her position. Cerberus thought Liara was with the Shadow Broker. Yeah, very reliable intel they have there.

The only real good thing Cerberus ever did was to bring Shepard back to life and gave him another Normandy. That's it.

Now that's done, I don't need them.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:44 .

[General User]

If the Reapers invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil’s three headed dog on the Bioware Forums.



I think I might even take Cerberus over the Shadow Broker. It’s hard to rate the two in terms of competing intel networks, but Cerberus has proven success in the R&D arena as well.

[Xilizhra]

Also, gathering info on a team shouldn't that difficult for someone in her position. Cerberus thought Liara was with the Shadow Broker. Yeah, very reliable intel they have there.

Actually, I think that was a lie to keep Shepard from seeking out Liara.

[Someone With Mass]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, gathering info on a team shouldn't that difficult for someone in her position. Cerberus thought Liara was with the Shadow Broker. Yeah, very reliable intel they have there.

Actually, I think that was a lie to keep Shepard from seeking out Liara.

That makes it even worse.

[Interactive Civilian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It would be better to say that 'I will not put Cerberus's purposes above my own, but if their purposes are aligned with mine then I will accept them.'

Indeed. This is a more accurate statement of what I meant. Though, I'm sure that, if we got into a deep discussion about it, we may have differing views of which of their purposes are aligned with ours (beyond the overall "hey, let's not let the Reapers win because of how we feel about Cerberus"), or at least the means by which they attempt to achieve their purposes. Based on my previous list, I have little reason to trust their means.

They did, however, bring Shepard back from the dead. For my part, while I am thankful to a degree (hey, it's better than being dead, amirite? ), I don't feel any loyalty to them for choosing to do so. It was their choice to act, and based on the way I play my character, it seems that it is another thing in a long list of things representing Cerberus biting off more than they can chew.


Anyway, in the end, it's all useless (but interesting and fun) speculation. We'll all see how we deal with Cerberus when we find out how ME3 lets us deal with Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Liara, AKA the Shadow Broker gave me more intel in five minutes than Cerberus ever did throughout the whole game.

Liara gve you a lot of gossip, and did nothing to help you build a team or organize against the Collectors.

Cerberus gave you no real gossip, but acted towards and was instrumental in going against the Collectors (and making Liara the Shadow Broker in the first place).

And you honestly don't think that if she can access information about factions and individuals that easily, she can come up with something useful if needed?

Could she? Eventually. Did she? Clearly not. Would she? I don't doubt she'd try, but she isn't anywhere as close to proactive and dedicated as Cerberus has proven itself to be, nor does she necessarily have everything Cerberus has.

If you felt a delay of weeks in confronting the Collectors was worth a change over to relying on Liara as she gets her feet on the ground, so to speak, so be it. That would have only been, what, a time span for two, maybe more, Collector raids to capture and kill tens of thousands?

Also, gathering info on a team shouldn't that difficult for someone in her position. Cerberus thought Liara was with the Shadow Broker. Yeah, very reliable intel they have there.

TIM said there were worrying connections. And there were: Liara's own secretary was a Shadow Broker agent. TIM, in a classic 'let the player draw their own conclusions, rather than say something himself', never affirms that she is, or what the relation is. or if he has any reports contradicting.

TIM only said he had received a report suggesting a connection, which there certainly is basis to report. Assuming anything more, as to TIM's opinion or anything else, would be a mistake.

While Liara unknowingly have a Shadow Broker secretary was certainly not a very... impressive... display of Liara's own awareness and abilities in her organization, the connection was there, and something to be concerned about.

The only real good thing Cerberus ever did was to bring Shepard back to life and gave him another Normandy. That's it.

I suppose the Reaper IFF was meaningless as well.

And organizing the Horizon trap for the Collectors.

And making the correct gamble on getting the vital data from the Collector Cruiser.


So, in other words, pretty much every story mission in Mass Effect 2.

Now that's done, I don't need them.

Until you find you do again. Don't burn bridges if you don't have to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 janvier 2011 - 06:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, gathering info on a team shouldn't that difficult for someone in her position. Cerberus thought Liara was with the Shadow Broker. Yeah, very reliable intel they have there.

Actually, I think that was a lie to keep Shepard from seeking out Liara.

A lie in what sense? That he didn't have such a report? No, there's enough of a basis to believe that: Nixeris. Without knowing whether or not Liara knew her secretary was a Shadow Broker agent, having such a secretary would be a big question mark to someone else's mind. Does Liara really not know even that about her own secretary? Or is her otherwise professed/indicated (if she indicates at all to anyone but Shepard!) opposition to the Shadow Broker a smoke screen?

Moreover, linking her with the Shadow Broker isn't necessarily even a draw back, depending on your Shepard: TIM doesn't veto Shepard's crew decisions, and more than one of your crew (Grunt, Legion) are impromptu additions, not people TIM selected for you.

[Someone With Mass]

The suicide mission is over. I don't need Cerberus and their pathetic excuses. That's it. I have plenty of other resources.



Oh, and Horizon was just luck, not a trap. The Collector cruiser was the lamest "trap" I've seen in my life. Cerberus is a thing of the past. They've done their part. I don't need them.



I have EDI. She can do more about the Reapers without forcing me to play those weak games the Illusive Man threw at me.



I have Liara. She can provide intel on valuable resources, while Cerberus keeps killing off themselves for no good reason.



There. I'm done. I don't want to hear or see from Cerberus again, and if I do, I will utterly destroy them.

[Xilizhra]

Until you find you do again. Don't burn bridges if you don't have to.

I admit, I doubt that Cerberus will be completely necessary for ME3.

[General User]

Horizon was as conceptually brilliant as the Cruiser was conceptually flawed. The former succeed because of TIM and Cerberus, the later in spite of them.

The entire Collector campaign can be taken as a case in point of just how much of a contribution Cerberus has to make, and how much greater that contribution could be if Cerberus is brought to heel.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The suicide mission is over. I don't need Cerberus and their pathetic excuses. That's it. I have plenty of other resources.

Are you secure enough in your feelings of advantage over the Reapers that you'll throw away resources against them? Are you willing to say 'enough is enough', rather than take every advantage?

Oh, and Horizon was just luck, not a trap. The Collector cruiser was the lamest "trap" I've seen in my life. Cerberus is a thing of the past. They've done their part. I don't need them.

There was no luck that the Virmire Survivor just happened to be at the location of about the only colony in the Terminus just recently handed over high-power defense turrents right before the Collectors attacked and in which Commander Shepard was able to be the first instance in which a response to a colony abduction came in time during the abduction, and not well after the Collectors had left.

I have EDI. She can do more about the Reapers without forcing me to play those weak games the Illusive Man threw at me.

EDI wouldn't have been able to do anything more than she did in ME2, and even now still remains bound by her in-built protocols. Simply because her external blocks were released doesn't mean she isn't still Cerberus-influenced internally.

Moreover, Cerberus built EDI in the first place, and they can well build more, and possibly even better. EDI is not a pentultimate AI that will trump the Reapers with ease, nor is EDI innately singular.

I have Liara. She can provide intel on valuable resources, while Cerberus keeps killing off themselves for no good reason.

Ignoring the disputable value of what Cerberus kills itself for (such as finding a Reaper IFF to end a genocidal abduction campaign), do try not to forget that it was Cerberus that outmaneuvered the Shadow Broker network, and not the other way around.

The Shadow Broker network and the Cerberus network do not completely overlap, and there is no reason (other than your own unwilligness) that they can't compliment eachother. Shadow Broker resources PLUS Cerberus resources will come out ahead of just Shadow Broker resources.

There. I'm done. I don't want to hear or see from Cerberus again, and if I do, I will utterly destroy them.

Wow. That's a mature attitude in the face of a galactic extinction event.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Until you find you do again. Don't burn bridges if you don't have to.

I admit, I doubt that Cerberus will be completely necessary for ME3.

Necessary, as in 'you will fail'? Agreed.

Necessary as in 'less harm to the galaxy if you accept their help and use them'? 


You'd need to make a mighty strong argument about how the galaxy will perform better in the war against the Reapers without Cerberus than with. Especially since Cerberus is pretty much the only organization with a known dedicated Reaper Research effort until after Retribution (at which point the Alliance studies a corpose).

[Sajuro]

jbblue05 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why?

Are the Council Species suddenly going to refuse to fight or coordinate because they're asked to deal with a group they don't like or who doesn't like it?

Will the Batarian Hegemony refuse to work with the galaxy simply because the Migrant Fleet rallied first?

Is the Rachni Queen going to defect to the Reapers because Cerberus got recruited?

This.

That kiind of argument from Cerberus haters makes no sense.at all.
Why would people rather have the Reapers kill them than work with Cerberus to stop them?

It's called self awareness  causes people to do stupid things

[Dean_the_Young]

I think siding with the Reapers over Cerberus would be a lack of self-awareness.



Or at least perspectives and morals.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Until you find you do again. Don't burn bridges if you don't have to.

I admit, I doubt that Cerberus will be completely necessary for ME3.

Necessary, as in 'you will fail'? Agreed.

Necessary as in 'less harm to the galaxy if you accept their help and use them'? 


You'd need to make a mighty strong argument about how the galaxy will perform better in the war against the Reapers without Cerberus than with. Especially since Cerberus is pretty much the only organization with a known dedicated Reaper Research effort until after Retribution (at which point the Alliance studies a corpose).

The good Geth. As portrayed in game, not your crazy tinfoil conspiracy Geth.

They have fleets capable of taking out the entire galaxy and have been preparing for the fight since Sovergein first showed up and the Heretics joined him.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Wow. That's a mature attitude in the face of a galactic extinction event.

Tell me when Cerberus finds the the deus ex machina of ME3. Then I'll give a damn.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 23 janvier 2011 - 07:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Generally, I think people want to stop the Reapers and Cerberus both, not let the Reapers kill them.