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[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, as it's been mentioned, Morri does end up pregnant if the male warden made love to her, even if he refuses the DR, so something is working.

And while Alistair and the warden cannot have a baby by natural means, I'm not sure it follows that Zevran and the femWarden cannot. that there is no mention of it in epilogue slides or whatever is a good point, but you can't really say it can't happen.

 The thing is, we've been told that a warden having a child is almost impossible, and when it's two wardens, it's not going to happen by natural. To me that says that the possibility is so remote as to be almost non-existant. Now, in fanfic, that seems to be interpreted as 'can only have 2 to 5 children, although one is conceived immediately after sex,' but I'm pretty sure that when they say almost impossible, they mean it, and the 'almost' is only there to give them a loophole if they change their minds.

Except, of course, Fiona.  It's not outside the realm of possibility.  I personally don't care, but "almost impossible" is not the term used for ONE gray warden to have a child.  The word used for that is "difficult."

Hmmm. Good point. I haven't read the books so I tend to forget about that. Anyone else feel like we're gettin mixed messages here?

I think the trade off is while Alistair and the Warden can stay together, they cannot have children.  And at first, while Morrigan and her lover could have a child (even through natural means), they could not be together.

Morrigan's story in Origins has already been changed -- this is probably a good thing as the ending for males who romanced her was very VERY harsh.

Leliana and Zevran romanced had the happily-ever-after endings.  I also think a male warden could get Leliana pregnant though there's no mention of it anywhere.

[Sarah1281]

Fathering a child whose soul is utterly destroyed and replaced by something inhuman... Not a nice daddy story. More something you'd wake up screaming about.

That's only if you believe that that happened and that's only an interpretation and not canon. For all we know, in DA the soul doesn't exist a day (or a couple days since the timeline's messed up) into conception or the souls merge. Maybe its there but the child's actual soul is the dominant one. We really don't know at this point.

[Face of Evil]

I take it as canon that the child is transformed. Into exactly what, I can't say. A new monstrosity bent on destroying the world? A godlike entity? Your guess is as good as mine. I'd like to think that Morrigan's motives weren't evil and the child isn't an eldritch horror, but I can't really assume that.



But in any case, whatever that child may have been is completely gone. There might still be some traces left of the child that was — maybe the child will have the same physical traits of his parents and share some emotional traits — but I agreed to the Dark Ritual fully knowing that I was effectively destroying my child and replacing it with something else, be it good or evil.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[Sarah1281]

Morrigan: The child will bear the taint, and when the archdemon is slain, its essence will seek the child like a beacon. At this early stage, the child can absorb that essence and not perish. The archdemon is still destroyed, with no Grey Warden dying in the process.

PC: So the child becomes a darkspawn?

Morrigan: Not at all. It will become something different: a child born with the soul of an Old God.

PC: The child won't be hurt, will it?

Morrigan: Ignoring that after but one night it could barely be called a child... no, it will not be hurt. It will be changed.



It can be your belief that you are destroying the child's soul that was present from the moment of conception but that is your personal canon and not in-game canon as of yet. Personally, I think that if the child's soul WAS going to be destroyed then the answer to 'will it be hurt' would be 'yes'. Maybe in DA2 we'll find out just what happened but until then...

[errant_knight]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fathering a child whose soul is utterly destroyed and replaced by something inhuman... Not a nice daddy story. More something you'd wake up screaming about.

That's only if you believe that that happened and that's only an interpretation and not canon. For all we know, in DA the soul doesn't exist a day (or a couple days since the timeline's messed up) into conception or the souls merge. Maybe its there but the child's actual soul is the dominant one. We really don't know at this point.

Edit having seen your more recent post. Okay, I can see how it might be interpreted that way. Maybe something of the soul survives (heh, channeling stargate), but I don't think it's really your child anymore. To me, 'born with the soul of an old god' implies that it will no longer be born with a human soul, and when Morrigan is talking about it being hurt, she means physically. I'd think that if the souls were going to be merged, Morrigan would say so. I'm sure we'll find out eventually, in either case.

Modifié par errant_knight, 25 janvier 2011 - 12:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan: The child will bear the taint, and when the archdemon is slain, its essence will seek the child like a beacon. At this early stage, the child can absorb that essence and not perish. The archdemon is still destroyed, with no Grey Warden dying in the process.
PC: So the child becomes a darkspawn?
Morrigan: Not at all. It will become something different: a child born with the soul of an Old God.
PC: The child won't be hurt, will it?
Morrigan: Ignoring that after but one night it could barely be called a child... no, it will not be hurt. It will be changed.

It can be your belief that you are destroying the child's soul that was present from the moment of conception but that is your personal canon and not in-game canon as of yet. Personally, I think that if the child's soul WAS going to be destroyed then the answer to 'will it be hurt' would be 'yes'. Maybe in DA2 we'll find out just what happened but until then...

I interpret it to mean that the child's soul will remain and absorb the old God soul. That would explain the "it will not be hurt, it will be changed".

In either case, looking forward to meeting the OGB.

[Face of Evil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan: The child will bear the taint, and when the archdemon is slain, its essence will seek the child like a beacon. At this early stage, the child can absorb that essence and not perish. The archdemon is still destroyed, with no Grey Warden dying in the process.

PC: So the child becomes a darkspawn?

Morrigan: Not at all. It will become something different: a child born with the soul of an Old God.

PC: The child won't be hurt, will it?

Morrigan: Ignoring that after but one night it could barely be called a child... no, it will not be hurt. It will be changed.



It can be your belief that you are destroying the child's soul that was present from the moment of conception but that is your personal canon and not in-game canon as of yet. Personally, I think that if the child's soul WAS going to be destroyed then the answer to 'will it be hurt' would be 'yes'. Maybe in DA2 we'll find out just what happened but until then...

My belief is based on those comments. No, the child is not hurt. But the end result of the Dark Ritual is the merging of its soul with that of an Old God. That to me is "destroying" the child even though no life is taken, as whatever it might have been if it were a normal fetus conceived by normal means is gone forever. Whatever it might have grown into … is no longer a possibility.

I don't think of the OGB as my son. It isn't, not anymore.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:12 .

[Sarah1281]

You make it sound like you're really losing something. It was conceived a day ago. It really hadn't developed into anything and unless there is some magical pregnancy detector than you wouldn't even be able to tell Morrigan is pregnant at that point. Besides, she leaves intending to never be seen again and only shows up for five minutes in WH so unless you follow her into the mirror you're never even going to see the child.

[errant_knight]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You make it sound like you're really losing something. It was conceived a day ago. It really hadn't developed into anything and unless there is some magical pregnancy detector than you wouldn't even be able to tell Morrigan is pregnant at that point. Besides, she leaves intending to never be seen again and only shows up for five minutes in WH so unless you follow her into the mirror you're never even going to see the child.

Heh, that was Morrigan level empathy there, Sarah.... Oh, look! Lothering!

[Sarah1281]

I wasn't trying to be callous. The phrase "I don't think of the OGB as my son. It isn't, not anymore" just struck me as rather odd. The OGB's dad may never even know what happened to the child. For all intents and purposes, the Warden was Morrigan's sperm donor. Biologically, it may be his son but if they're never ever going to meet the kid ever then it's really not their son any way but biologically. Morrigan never even tells you what she names the kid.



And furthermore, it's not callous or "Morrigan level empathy" to not consider a fertilized egg that is one day old to be a child or anyone's son. It is a difference of opinion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And furthermore, it's not callous or "Morrigan level empathy" to not consider a fertilized egg that is one day old to be a child or anyone's son. It is a difference of opinion.

That's assuming that the march to Denerim took only one day though.

But eh, I view the OGB as my character's son, unless the child is born without the need to be raised and recognzes that he's an old god the day he was born. Which I doubt. 

[Face of Evil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You make it sound like you're really losing something. It was conceived a day ago.

The fact that "it can barely be called a child" only makes the decision slightly easier.

Look, this isn't the same as losing a child to a miscarriage or even aborting a child. My character has transformed his son into some ... god-thing to save his own life. And it will never be what it was or know a life beyond the one that Morrigan has planned for it. It's still a horrific choice to make.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 25 janvier 2011 - 04:37 .

[Sarah1281]

Does it make a difference that it wouldn't have even existed if not for the ritual? And I'm sure it will have a life outside of Morrigan. It just won't have a CHILDHOOD outside of her.

That's assuming that the march to Denerim took only one day though.

I'm not sure how they pull it off, but Morrigan seems insistent that this happen on the eve of battle.

[Face of Evil]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And I'm sure it will have a life outside of Morrigan. It just won't have a CHILDHOOD outside of her.

The way Morrigan had a life outside of Flemeth? The way that, even with her mother dead, Morrigan ultimately followed through with Flemeth's plans?

[Sarah1281]

Face of Evil wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And I'm sure it will have a life outside of Morrigan. It just won't have a CHILDHOOD outside of her.

The way Morrigan had a life outside of Flemeth? The way that, even with her mother dead, Morrigan ultimately followed through with Flemeth's plans?

That's different. We don't know what Flemeth's plan for the child was or whether it was such a good deal (if Flemeth weren't involved) that Morrigan went through it anyway. And Morrigan seems to be just an ordinary human mage while Flemeth apparently isn't evan an abomination. Whether the OGB will ever have a life outside of Flemeth remains to be seen but Morrigan really shouldn't be that much of a problem once it gets older.

[tehprincessJ]

You know, Shale does say something to Zev about how what he and I are up to could result in a child. His response was something along the lines of, "Would that be so bad?" I remain hopeful that it's at least a possibility for my Warden to have babies someday.