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[Capeo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

That presupposes that the main character is intended to fight them directly. Consider LotR. They never fought Sauron himself, only his forces, and only as a distraction to draw troops out of Mordor to make the ringbearer's job easier. The first Starblazers series consisted almost entirely of one long series of running battles, trying to get the Yamato to the race who transmitted the plans for FTL drives to Earth.

Sauron could not join the battle because he could only take coporeal form with the one ring since the sinking of Numenor.

I expect that the fleet will serve a similiar purpose. However the fleet must also be able to give them a fight in the same way the distraction force in front of Mordor did. If the Reapers were on the same level as Sovereign was in the cutscene in ME , that's not going to happen. The Reapers have gotten comparitively weaker because of that.

Thanks to ME2 we have the tools now to make that plausable.

As a LotR geek I have to correct you.  Sauron has a corpreal form even after Numenor sank.  He just lost the ability to take a charming form.  He was the necromancer in Mirkwood when Gandalf rooted him out.  Gollum also describes him from his time being captured.  He doesn't go into battle because he doesn't have the ring, that is all.  Without it he is much weaker.  The whole flaming eye search light thing is stricly a movie invention.

It should also be mentioned that LotR was never intended to be a trilogy so using it as an example doesn't really fit the ME trilogy.

BTW, what tools do we now have that in any way make fighting a Reaper any easier than fighting Sovereign was?

[Whatever42]

I'm not saying, that lack of Side mission made Mass Effect 1's story better, i said that in Mass effect 1 the plot is slowy build up to the final confrontation and with less other stuff to think about we can focuss on the main story. In Mass effect 2 you got twelve seperated characters story's going on, that might be interesting but ultimatly pointless to the conclusion of the main plot.

The character missions didn't replace any core missions. They replaced the meaningless side missions. That is a huge step up.

The build up in ME1 happened only after the core missions: vision 1, became a spectre, learned location of relay, retrieved cipher, vision 2, meeting Sovereign, learned about Ilos, killed Saren and Sovereign.

The build up in ME2 was joining Cerberus, learning about missing colonists, discovering the collectors and Omega 4 relay, meeting and fighting the collectors, learning a lot of information about the Collectors from their ship, retrieving the IFF,  learning about the location of the Collector base, the crew abduction, the crew rescue and the destruction of the Collectors.

Same amount of build up easily. Its just that instead of Admiral hackett and weak crew side missions from ME1, we had more interesting character-based quests.

How many of does those discoveries are important to the final conclusion, and how many of those  discoveries are even worth paying antention to?

Good question. We haven't found out yet. I could speculate but I won't.

that list might look pretty impresive, but  The whole Collector plot is a interesting as as a college graduation, it was just so bad written and explained during the game  that i didn't  bother caring about it.

I thought it was explained well. There was nothing I didn't understand. Now if you wrote that you simply didn't like the story as well as ME1 then I wouldn't be arguing with you. I can understand why many people would prefer ME1 to ME2. I like Fellowship more than TTT.

The Derelict Reaper is underused it was just 20 minutes of pew pew and that's it, if we would sweep the collecor plot away and set the Derelict Reapers as main focus of the game, Discovering it's secrets and finding away to crack it, but in reality we just shoot at a blue sparkling ball. yawn, and that is supposed to be the main opposing force?

We learned more about how the indoctrination field affected people and that it even existed in a dead reaper. We learned about the power of Reaper mass effect fields and how one is internally structured. That can be used in many ways to advance the plot.

On Feros, we killed a giant plant and got the cipher. How does that advance the story?

At the end none of it realy matters as i dismiss the whole collector plot as just one giant big sidequest that was there to kill time until the reapers come.

I think this is just a subjective feeling you have. I can appreciate that but it doesn't mean ME2 was bad or pointless. I prefer beer to wine but it doesn't mean wine is bad.

[allankles]

Weapons technology. Information on their defensive countermeasures. Information on their constitution from infancy to completion.

[BillKephart]

It's the second act of a 3 act play...pretty standard.

It had a point in that if Shepard didn't stop the collectors from making a human reaper everybody would have been screwed.

The whole point of the series is the reapers are trapped in dark space and need an advance force to bring them back somehow. Soverign failed and the collectors failed. Mass effect 3 will be plan C...probably a last desperate attempt. The trailer shows multiple reapers attacking Earth...but I don't think it could possibly be all of them. It is another advance force trying to bring them back. Perhaps the reaper fleet sacrificed the last of their energy to send a few of them back (since 50k years have passed it is likely their energy reserves have dwindled). Remember one reaper can fight a whole fleet...if thousands of reapers came back they would roll over everything.

However at the same time it took the reaper fleet hundreds of years to fully exterminate the Protheans...so they might not be all powerful.

Either way every time the reapers fail to summon their fleet from dark space the story advances. The galaxy would have been screwed if Shepard failed in 2 same as 1...clearly not a pointless story.

[AkiKishi]

Capeo wrote...

As a LotR geek I have to correct you.  Sauron has a corpreal form even after Numenor sank.  He just lost the ability to take a charming form.  He was the necromancer in Mirkwood when Gandalf rooted him out.  Gollum also describes him from his time being captured.  He doesn't go into battle because he doesn't have the ring, that is all.  Without it he is much weaker.  The whole flaming eye search light thing is stricly a movie invention.

It should also be mentioned that LotR was never intended to be a trilogy so using it as an example doesn't really fit the ME trilogy.

BTW, what tools do we now have that in any way make fighting a Reaper any easier than fighting Sovereign was?

" For Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though Ilúvatar crushed him into the abyss of the ocean, his spirit returned to the land of Mordor where he picked up the One Ring and took on form of malice and hatred".

Sauron needs the ring to maintain his from in anything other than a spirit. That's why he' loses the ability when Isuldur cuts the ring from his hand.

We got a number of upgrades that made a battle with the collector ship very doable. Reapers might be tougher, but the collector ship is Reaper tech.

[Fixers0]

I think i have strayed to far from my original point, Mass effect 2 is not pointless, let that be clear, i also have no problems with basic storylines and the mission it self,

Where i do have problems with is the story telling Mechanism and the Character driven story, there is to much emphasis on recruiting a team and helping them rather then the actual suicide mission, the biggest problem there is i believe is the lack of cohesion, twelve separated story's that we must deal with before we can continue with the main plot,

If we take Legion's and Tali's loyalty quest for example, these were excellent missions with an intersting subplot, yet at this moment they don't feel intriguing or adventures as Feros or Novaria, For some reason event's in mass effect 1 felt much better to connect with then the event's in Mass effect 2, i don't know what causes this, does someone here know?

this leads me to believe that the tone in Mass effect was better as it felt much more like a classical space adventure, like the Star wars episode IV whilst, Mass effect 2 felt more like a modern day, Good Sci-fi movie Like star trek 2009.

[AkiKishi]

Fixers0 wrote...
Where i do have problems with is the story telling Mechanism and the Character driven story, there is to much emphasis on recruiting a team and helping them rather then the actual suicide mission, the biggest problem there is i believe is the lack of cohesion, twelve separated story's that we must deal with before we can continue with the main plot,

The core problem is because the suicide mission is a scripted event results vary from player to player. For some it is a suicide mission that lives up to the billing, for others it's more like a walk in the park. Add to that , the end boss is an 80's throwback T-800 and it's just hard to take it seriously. It's a huge anti climax.

Even so that does not make the design or the recruiting worse than ME, it was huge step up from the generic trash that existed outside of the plot planets.

[BillKephart]

Fixers0 wrote...

I think i have strayed to far from my original point, Mass effect 2 is not pointless, let that be clear, i also have no problems with basic storylines and the mission it self,
Where i do have problems with is the story telling Mechanism and the Character driven story, there is to much emphasis on recruiting a team and helping them rather then the actual suicide mission, the biggest problem there is i believe is the lack of cohesion, twelve separated story's that we must deal with before we can continue with the main plot,
If we take Legion's and Tali's loyalty quest for example, these were excellent missions with an intersting subplot, yet at this moment they don't feel intriguing or adventures as Feros or Novaria, For some reason event's in mass effect 1 felt much better to connect with then the event's in Mass effect 2, i don't know what causes this, does someone here know?
this leads me to believe that the tone in Mass effect was better as it felt much more like a classical space adventure, like the Star wars episode IV whilst, Mass effect 2 felt more like a modern day, Good Sci-fi movie Like star trek 2009.

Act 2 syndrome I think. There may be NO new team members in 3. Or if one dies he gets a convenient placeholder (like Wreav for Wrex). Other possibilities are Kal'Reegar coming in for dead Tali, Kolyat for dead Thane, and so on. The character development and team building may be completely out of the way now.

[Whatever42]

Fixers0 wrote...

I think i have strayed to far from my original point, Mass effect 2 is not pointless, let that be clear, i also have no problems with basic storylines and the mission it self,
Where i do have problems with is the story telling Mechanism and the Character driven story, there is to much emphasis on recruiting a team and helping them rather then the actual suicide mission, the biggest problem there is i believe is the lack of cohesion, twelve separated story's that we must deal with before we can continue with the main plot,
If we take Legion's and Tali's loyalty quest for example, these were excellent missions with an intersting subplot, yet at this moment they don't feel intriguing or adventures as Feros or Novaria, For some reason event's in mass effect 1 felt much better to connect with then the event's in Mass effect 2, i don't know what causes this, does someone here know?
this leads me to believe that the tone in Mass effect was better as it felt much more like a classical space adventure, like the Star wars episode IV whilst, Mass effect 2 felt more like a modern day, Good Sci-fi movie Like star trek 2009.

Oh, I can make a list of things I liked better from ME1 that could result in you liking it better, from better villains to a more epic ending. However, I note that you say that you MUST complete the character missions and maybe that's the problem. I did feel something similar.

The character missions replace the trash Hackett missions in ME1 (although I loved Hackett), not core missions. But the side missions in ME1 were all very optional. I could fly around and do a few then go to Feros. Then fly around and do a few more than go to Liara's dig site. The I could not do any and skip right to Virmire. Kill Kaiden and then another side mission or two. And then I go to Novaria and loose the Rachni on an unsuspecting galaxy and then we go into the big finish - where I can still stop and do a couple more side missions if so inclined.

In ME2, the core missions came on a schedule. And then the character missions are very good so you want to do all of them (and if replaying, you may not want to see your friends gobbled up by seeker swarms). But there is such a big gap between the Collector Ship and the IFF mission that main story does kind of fall off the radar.

And since the story in ME1 is more epic - visions, reapers, Saren, getting to hang up repeatedly on the council - maybe it does stand out more, while the more low-key story of ME2 gets drowned out a little by all the noise.

That's all very subjective, of course. But for me, if you were to toss in a personal Harbinger convesation in the middle and just one more central, epic mission, it would have seriously improved the game for me. If this were a movie, I would say my problem would be the editting, not the writing or acting.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 08 février 2011 - 09:54 .

[AkiKishi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And since the story in ME1 is more epic - visions, reapers, Saren, getting to hang up repeatedly on the council - maybe it does stand out more, while the more low-key story of ME2 gets drowned out a little by all the noise.

ME1 is also a very short game unless driving around in the Mako is your thing that too keeps the plot more focused.

[Moiaussi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sauron could not join the battle because he could only take coporeal form with the one ring since the sinking of Numenor.

I expect that the fleet will serve a similiar purpose. However the fleet must also be able to give them a fight in the same way the distraction force in front of Mordor did. If the Reapers were on the same level as Sovereign was in the cutscene in ME , that's not going to happen. The Reapers have gotten comparitively weaker because of that.

Thanks to ME2 we have the tools now to make that plausable.

ME2 did NOT do that. In ME2, a frigate was able to beat a Reaper-tech CRUSER, even with no upgrades. That isn't the same as 'a fleet being strong enough to fight a delaying action.'

That is 'a fleet that, based on ME2, could easily beat the Reapers on its own.

The Collector crusier was taken out so easily it had to have borne no relationship to the Reaper vessels. It didn't seem that much tougher than anyone's cruser, really. Consider it took multiple passes to take down the SR1 at point blank, despite being a cruser vs a frigate.

[AkiKishi]

Moiaussi wrote...
ME2 did NOT do that. In ME2, a frigate was able to beat a Reaper-tech CRUSER, even with no upgrades. That isn't the same as 'a fleet being strong enough to fight a delaying action.'

That is 'a fleet that, based on ME2, could easily beat the Reapers on its own.

The Collector crusier was taken out so easily it had to have borne no relationship to the Reaper vessels. It didn't seem that much tougher than anyone's cruser, really. Consider it took multiple passes to take down the SR1 at point blank, despite being a cruser vs a frigate.

You kind of missed the point. With the upgrades it was a lot easier.

Not beat, but punch a hole big enough to get Shepard where he needs to be for the inevitable boss battle. It's now quite plausable. Reapers are going to be tougher than the collector ship (one would hope) But then the battle lines will be different as well.

And yet it destroyed SR1 with zero effort. Which again makes the point of how ME2 makes the Reapers less threatening. It's classic almost JRPG stuff, at the start of the the game you get beaten by the bad guy and left for dead, then at the end you kick his ass, it's very satisfying progress.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 08 février 2011 - 10:45 .

[Moiaussi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And since the story in ME1 is more epic - visions, reapers, Saren, getting to hang up repeatedly on the council - maybe it does stand out more, while the more low-key story of ME2 gets drowned out a little by all the noise.

ME1 is also a very short game unless driving around in the Mako is your thing that too keeps the plot more focused.

While you are right about the stict core plot, most of the side missions in ME1 related to the overall plot, i.e. the pending war.

In ME2, even some of the most of the core missions (recruiting/loyalty) didn't relate other than indirectly by way of recruiting an emergency replacement crew.

[AkiKishi]

Moiaussi wrote...
While you are right about the stict core plot, most of the side missions in ME1 related to the overall plot, i.e. the pending war.

In ME2, even some of the most of the core missions (recruiting/loyalty) didn't relate other than indirectly by way of recruiting an emergency replacement crew.

Huhu and all the recruitment mission relate to the suicide mission. As do the loyalty missions, the outcome depends on them.

See above.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 08 février 2011 - 10:48 .

[Moiaussi]

BobSmith101 wrote...
You kind of missed the point. With the upgrades it was a lot easier.

Not beat, but punch a hole big enough to get Shepard where he needs to be for the inevitable boss battle. It's now quite plausable. Reapers are going to be tougher than the collector ship (one would hope) But then the battle lines will be different as well.

And yet it destroyed SR1 with zero effort. Which again makes the point of how ME2 makes the Reapers less threatening. It's classic almost JRPG stuff, at the start of the the game you get beaten by the bad guy and left for dead, then at the end you kick his ass, it's very satisfying progress.

Yes, the upgrades make it easier against a ship that didn't seem any better armed than any other contemporary Council ship. That is something that didn't need a whole game to show.

And the SR1 was destroyed because Joker let a cruser close to point blank on his frigate.

To paraphase the Codex, 'battles in space only happen when both sides want them to happen, i.e. when the smaller force is forced to stand and fight to defend something.'

An alliance frigate hit from behind by a larger vessel, because it allowed the larger vessel to get that close is indeed expected to get hit that badly. That doesn't show anything other than Joker's inexperience in anything other than a simulator.

Keep in mind that is the first time Joker hasn't been able to use stealth as a crutch against using 'real' tactics.

[Moiaussi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
While you are right about the stict core plot, most of the side missions in ME1 related to the overall plot, i.e. the pending war.

In ME2, even some of the most of the core missions (recruiting/loyalty) didn't relate other than indirectly by way of recruiting an emergency replacement crew.

Huhu and all the recruitment mission relate to the suicide mission. As do the loyalty missions, the outcome depends on them.

See above.

"Other than indirectly...."... you see above. Why couldn't loyalty have been earned the old fashioned way, i.e. under fire in the line of duty by way of good leadership?

[AkiKishi]

Moiaussi wrote...

"Other than indirectly...."... you see above. Why couldn't loyalty have been earned the old fashioned way, i.e. under fire in the line of duty by way of good leadership?

Because it's a suicide mission is the short answer.

These people are not expecting to come back,like most people they have unfinished business. Being the good commander that you are (or should be) by solving their unfinished business they are more focused on the mission and thus more likely to complete/survive it. This is played out in real time when you actually do the suicide mission.

Calling it loyalty was maybe a mistake because it leads to misunderstandings like this.

 

[Iakus]

BobSmith101 wrote...

These people are not expecting to come back,like most people they have unfinished business. Being the good commander that you are (or should be) by solving their unfinished business they are more focused on the mission and thus more likely to complete/survive it. This is played out in real time when you actually do the suicide mission. 

 

Focus and closure is all well and good, but wouldn't a good commander also try to maximize your chances of surviving the mission via weapons, armor, and information?  Missions not just to recruit people, or solve their personal problems, but actually preparing for the mission.  Planet scanning and mining had more to do with that stuff, since that at least gives you the sources to upgrade the Normandy, which is the only real preparation for the mission you do.

[AkiKishi]

iakus wrote...

Focus and closure is all well and good, but wouldn't a good commander also try to maximize your chances of surviving the mission via weapons, armor, and information?  Missions not just to recruit people, or solve their personal problems, but actually preparing for the mission.  Planet scanning and mining had more to do with that stuff, since that at least gives you the sources to upgrade the Normandy, which is the only real preparation for the mission you do.

Deja vu

Armour and weapons via upgrades/purchases.
TIM gives you all the infomation
 
You do research, research is preparation.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

iakus wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

These people are not expecting to come back,like most people they have unfinished business. Being the good commander that you are (or should be) by solving their unfinished business they are more focused on the mission and thus more likely to complete/survive it. This is played out in real time when you actually do the suicide mission. 

 

Focus and closure is all well and good, but wouldn't a good commander also try to maximize your chances of surviving the mission via weapons, armor, and information?  Missions not just to recruit people, or solve their personal problems, but actually preparing for the mission.  Planet scanning and mining had more to do with that stuff, since that at least gives you the sources to upgrade the Normandy, which is the only real preparation for the mission you do.

Aside from the Normandy upgrades. Aren't finding new weapons and armor part of Cerberus responsibility?

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

These people are not expecting to come back,like most people they have unfinished business. Being the good commander that you are (or should be) by solving their unfinished business they are more focused on the mission and thus more likely to complete/survive it. This is played out in real time when you actually do the suicide mission. 

 

Focus and closure is all well and good, but wouldn't a good commander also try to maximize your chances of surviving the mission via weapons, armor, and information?  Missions not just to recruit people, or solve their personal problems, but actually preparing for the mission.  Planet scanning and mining had more to do with that stuff, since that at least gives you the sources to upgrade the Normandy, which is the only real preparation for the mission you do.

Right! Like doing Garrus's and Wrex's missions is the first game seriously detracted from the whole thing. And all those alliance debacles had zero to do with sovereign and saren and gave us no weapons or equipment. Why the heck did we do those? Don't even get me started to why we were ferrying around Quarian children on their pilgramage or helping Asari prostitues clear up misunderstandings.

Its an RPG. We do these things in an RPG. Why our brave heroes always pause in our frantic pursuit of a villain to help a kitten out of a tree is beyond me but for some reason, we do. At least the character missions in ME2 had some loose assocation with the plot. At least in ME2, there was nothing urgent preventing us from helping our crew - it wasn't like ME1 where we kept Saren waiting because we had to help some Asari rescue her sister or help the alliance cover up a long lost nuke.

Maybe one day, RPGs will evolve so everything in the game makes sense but I'm not holding my breath.

[Whatever42]

Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

These people are not expecting to come back,like most people they have unfinished business. Being the good commander that you are (or should be) by solving their unfinished business they are more focused on the mission and thus more likely to complete/survive it. This is played out in real time when you actually do the suicide mission. 

 

Focus and closure is all well and good, but wouldn't a good commander also try to maximize your chances of surviving the mission via weapons, armor, and information?  Missions not just to recruit people, or solve their personal problems, but actually preparing for the mission.  Planet scanning and mining had more to do with that stuff, since that at least gives you the sources to upgrade the Normandy, which is the only real preparation for the mission you do.

Aside from the Normandy upgrades. Aren't finding new weapons and armor part of Cerberus responsibility?

I enjoyed Mordin's joke that unlike the Spectres, the STG actually bought their people armor and weapons.

[Iakus]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Deja vu

Armour and weapons via upgrades/purchases.
TIM gives you all the infomation
 
You do research, research is preparation.

Upgrade purchases fine.  I can see that.

But a sizable chunk of the upgrades, plus pretty much all weapons besides your starting weapons/dlc are, I believe, stumbled upon while doing other people's missions.  Not what I'd call "preparing"

TIM is not a reliable source.  He most certainly doesn't give you "all" the information.

What research does Shepard do?

[DarthSliver]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

These people are not expecting to come back,like most people they have unfinished business. Being the good commander that you are (or should be) by solving their unfinished business they are more focused on the mission and thus more likely to complete/survive it. This is played out in real time when you actually do the suicide mission. 

 

Focus and closure is all well and good, but wouldn't a good commander also try to maximize your chances of surviving the mission via weapons, armor, and information?  Missions not just to recruit people, or solve their personal problems, but actually preparing for the mission.  Planet scanning and mining had more to do with that stuff, since that at least gives you the sources to upgrade the Normandy, which is the only real preparation for the mission you do.

Aside from the Normandy upgrades. Aren't finding new weapons and armor part of Cerberus responsibility?

I enjoyed Mordin's joke that unlike the Spectres, the STG actually bought their people armor and weapons.

Dont forget the Shadowbroker DLC.

Remember when you could slap omnigel on everything (Something like that)

[AkiKishi]

iakus wrote...

Upgrade purchases fine.  I can see that.

But a sizable chunk of the upgrades, plus pretty much all weapons besides your starting weapons/dlc are, I believe, stumbled upon while doing other people's missions.  Not what I'd call "preparing"

TIM is not a reliable source.  He most certainly doesn't give you "all" the information.

What research does Shepard do?

How is that any different from finding them in random chest #56? Which is how it was in ME1. 

He gets you were you need to go. It's not like anyone has actually been beyond the O4 relay so you can't exactly look it up at the library.

None- That's why we pick up Mordin.