462 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of the Human Reaper was going to be, but everyone's best guess is that it was going to be Sovereign replacement.[/quote]

That's just it.  It's a guess.  If Sovereign had opened the dark space relay in ME 1 we know what would have happened.  In ME 2, all we can do is speculate on what exactly we accomplished against the Collectors.  If it gets cleared up in ME3, that's good for ME 3.  But ME 2 will still require ME 2 to make any sense.

[quote]SR1 was torn to peaces by the Collector ship without so much as getting a chance to shoot back. Even the non-upgraded SR2 proved to be more than a match for the same ship in a roughly fair fight. The upgrades count as part of the plot progression as well.[/quote]

SR 1 got caught with its pants down, figuatively speaking.  It was trying to be sneaky and got jumped.  The SR 2 went in spoiling for a fight.  And non-upraded, still gets pretty well torn up.

[quote[[Yep, and this one is loyal only to Shepard, without any complications like an oath of server to the alliance or anything like that. Same goes for the SR2's crew.[/quote]

How confident are you that we'll get to keep this one any more than we got to keep the ME 1 team?  Me, I'm thinking "Wrex Effect"

[quote]Also whatever data was recovered by from the CB, IFF, and Derelict Reaper. Besides, EDI's primary pursose, in a storytelling sense, is to provide that kind of information to the audience. [/quote]

Possible, but again, entirely speculative.  Personally, I'd have preferred some actual facts uncovered, rather than have possibilities narrated to us by a disembodied voice.

[quote]The inacuracies of Mass Relay transit are not inherent to the technology itself, but rather, were introduced to them by the Reapers, which would have allowed them a significant strategic advantage in a war. With the IFF in the hands of Cerberus, at least the Alliance is likely to have access to the relay's alternate protocols that allow for high-precission transit.[/quote]

That was just for the Omega IV Relay.  One relay with a security system to help hide the base (presumably, why it has red lights on it also)  Whether there are other relays like it, or can be made like it, we do not know.  Again speculation.


[quote]This is not true. Even though the necessities of the game mechanics have the team members in the same spots 100% of the time that they're not on mission doesn't mean that they don't interact. Kelly obviously has conversations with them thoughout their stay on board, and Kasumi seems to be quite social as well. When you take them on missions and to hub worlds, they banter back and forth as well. In truth, we don't know how much the team socializes with each other, but it's obviously not 0, with the possible exception of Jack, but she's ****ed in the head anyways.[/quote]

They don't even talk to each other on missions.  I cannot think of a single instance where Tali acknowledges that Samara exists.  Jack and Miranda ignore each other aside from their original meeting and the one arguement.  Mordin shows no curiosity whatsoever about Grunt, and so on.  We're supposed to build a team, not a bunch of vassals.  For a character-centered game there's not a lot of character interaction

[quote]I value the story of ME2 plenty, but it's not really the story of ME2 that people complain about, but rather, its significance in the overarching story of the ME trillogy. The story itself is fine, and we even got the big "Luke, I am your father" reveal about the Reaper's motives. I think that the reason some people are not satified with the game's story is because the Human Reaper seemed comical to them, tainting the big reveal that the story was building up to.
[/quote]

The thing that I complain about is that it is not, in fact one story so much as a dozen different stories.  Individually interesting, but none of them have anything to do with or very little to do with the main story (the Collectors) The characters have little vested interest in fighting the Collectors, no motive besides "I owe Shep a favor" and no interaction to make them feel like you're building a "team"  

Yes the Termireaper is ridicuous looking.  But every bit as bad is that the reveal about the Reapers raised more questions than it answered.  Why now?  What is it about the human smoothie that the Reapers require?  How did the Collectors thing they were gonna get away with this?  What, in fact, did we accomplish in destroying the Reaper and blowing up/taking over the base?

When people speculate that they say ME 2 is "pointless" I think of it as "We don't know what we accomplished, why it was so important that we do this, or how Shepard fits into this story besides TIM's blather about being a "symbol"

[JG The Gamer]

No.

[AdmiralCheez]

iakus wrote...

The thing that I complain about is that it is not, in fact one story so much as a dozen different stories.  Individually interesting, but none of them have anything to do with or very little to do with the main story (the Collectors) The characters have little vested interest in fighting the Collectors, no motive besides "I owe Shep a favor" and no interaction to make them feel like you're building a "team"  

Yes the Termireaper is ridicuous looking.  But every bit as bad is that the reveal about the Reapers raised more questions than it answered.  Why now?  What is it about the human smoothie that the Reapers require?  How did the Collectors thing they were gonna get away with this?  What, in fact, did we accomplish in destroying the Reaper and blowing up/taking over the base?

When people speculate that they say ME 2 is "pointless" I think of it as "We don't know what we accomplished, why it was so important that we do this, or how Shepard fits into this story besides TIM's blather about being a "symbol"

There is great wisdom in the above quote, and these are the main beefs I had with ME2's story, myself.  I, however, think that if ME2 raised more questions than it answered, and these questions matter so much more to you if you've played ME1, then it functions well enough as a middle chapter.  What kind of middle chapter ties up all the loose ends, anyway?  I suppose it could have tied in more if ME1 had left a bit more dangling for ME2 to pick up on (in that respect, ME1 was more "stand alone" than ME2), but I'm just itchy for ME3 - either it will be the Best Game Ever or the Biggest Letdown in Gaming History.

[Suron]

As some have said..ME 2 can be saved...IF certain things are addressed and explained in ME3 and/or any "bridging" DLC or story crap is released....



as it stands though..ME2 WAS rather pointless..as was the human reaper.

[Lewie]

I am not sure if i should be excited or worried about 3. One or 2 dlc from now until then would be good or the game will stagnate a bit for people. (Coughs loudly).

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Suron wrote...
As some have said..ME 2 can be saved...IF certain things are addressed and explained in ME3 and/or any "bridging" DLC or story crap is released....
as it stands though..ME2 WAS rather pointless..as was the human reaper.

It's entertainment.. it doesnt need a point. Does any sci-fi have a "point" ? "Relax", that's the point. (And then you will enjoy it, I did)

[Moiaussi]

FeelTheMighty wrote...

I dunno, using some of the logic I see in these threads, you have to hate on the Empire Strikes Back for not ACTUALLY "advancing" the reveal of how to defeat the Empire. I mean, people complain about ME2 not giving us a better idea of how the Reapers are going to be defeated...so why not hate on Empire for that same thing?

A plot can actually advance by way of the situation becoming more dire. ME2, for example, like Empire, could have been a fighting withdrawl as the Reapers arrived and started to advance. Instead, the plot went essentially nowhere. You need a certain degree of self containment in a book or movie series so someone picking it up in the middle can, but too much and it isn't a trilogy, just unrelated episodes.

Also, was it this game or ME1 where we learned that the Rachni were controlled by the Reapers?

ME1, and that is still just speculation since the only contact is still the Noverian queen who was only there as an egg.

[Moiaussi]

Nozybidaj wrote...
^^ This.

Really though it will all depends on ME3.  ME1 and ME2 have so little to do with each other that one of them will end up being pointless once ME3 is over.  Which one depends on which of the 2 stories ME3 continues.

Nah.... if ME3 bears no relation to ME1, then ME1 will still be an immersive decently written story, and thus will still have a point. If ME2 bears no relation to ME3, then it will be an inferior shooter with some nice short stories. It will be a better shooter than ME1, but ME1 isn't competion among shooters.

ME2 needs continuity to 3 even more than 1 does, and the weak continuity with 1 is ME2's current weakness.

[Moiaussi]

iakus wrote...

SR 1 got caught with its pants down, figuatively speaking.  It was trying to be sneaky and got jumped.  The SR 2 went in spoiling for a fight.  And non-upraded, still gets pretty well torn up.

The SR 1 didn't get caught with its pants down. Rewatch that sequence. There is plenty of warning, even after they realize they have been spotted, Joker is calm and collected, but instead of doing anything sensible he tries to prove what a hotshot pilot he is by way of 'evasive maneuvers', which not only let the Collectors close, but aslo keeps the Normandy's stern to the enemy.

The SR 1 wasn't caught with its pants down. Joker dropped the ship's pants and acted surprised when mooning an enemy ship didn't defeat it. He was still in denial even after the ship was crippled by the first pass. And he is shocked they took him off pilot duty.....

How confident are you that we'll get to keep this one any more than we got to keep the ME 1 team?  Me, I'm thinking "Wrex Effect"

Exactly... people are saying the same things that were said after ME1... "Just wait for the next one and all the great continuity we have been promised!" And when it didn't arrive as promised, some are buying into the 'just wait til 3 mantra?' Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me....

[Moiaussi]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

It's entertainment.. it doesnt need a point. Does any sci-fi have a "point" ? "Relax", that's the point. (And then you will enjoy it, I did)

There are a couple points to science fiction. One is to explore the human condition in situations sufficiently removed from reality that we can explore more objectively. Another is to explore extrapolations/predictions on the effects of technological development on society.

At least that is the case with good science fiction. If relaxing is the point, I suggest that you relax and send the cost of ME3 to me instead of to bioware. Then you don't even have to stress over playing the game

[Wulfram]

To be honest, I hope the whole human reaper thing is quietly forgotten

[james1976]

Doctah T wrote...

 Mass Effect 1 introduced the Reapers. It was the beginning of the plot. ME2 was pointless because it doesn't build off the plot of ME1, and it doesn't add anything in the end. After ME2, you're in the exact same spot as you were in after ME1; the Reapers are coming, some time. You don't learn anything about the Reapers or their plan. And its plot is almost completely isolated form the first game - if there were no first game, Mass Effect 2 would be fine as a stand-alone title.

You are partially correct.  It does not truely build on ME1's plot but you find out more about it in the long run.  ME2 allowed you to slow down the Reapers by stopping the Collectors who were working for them.  You also found out other interesting information such as the Collectors being "repurposed" Protheans.

I wouldn't say ME2 was pointless.

[Iwillbeback]

Whats this about the reaper made from humans?

It wasn't finished and really it give us insight into what reapers really are.

[SandTrout]

That was just for the Omega IV Relay. One relay with a security system to help hide the base (presumably, why it has red lights on it also) Whether there are other relays like it, or can be made like it, we do not know. Again speculation.

Incorrect. All relays are subject to transit drift. This has been part of the lore from the beginning of ME1 (Remember Joker commenting on drift being just under 15k and comparing that to the size of a pinhead). The reason that this is a major issue for the omega 4 relay is because its sister is located in the galactic core, where standard transit drift could drop you into one of the many stars or black holes.

The big reveal about the Reapers was regarding their general motives for wiping out galactic civilization roughly every 50k and giving hints to their origins. Before, they were just big AI ships with a grudge against organic life. Now we understand that they are techno-organic constructs that represent the distilled essence of their species, and that the Reapings are their form of reproduction.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Moiaussi wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

It's entertainment.. it doesnt need a point. Does any sci-fi have a "point" ? "Relax", that's the point. (And then you will enjoy it, I did)

There are a couple points to science fiction. One is to explore the human condition in situations sufficiently removed from reality that we can explore more objectively. Another is to explore extrapolations/predictions on the effects of technological development on society.

At least that is the case with good science fiction. If relaxing is the point, I suggest that you relax and send the cost of ME3 to me instead of to bioware. Then you don't even have to stress over playing the game

What has good sci-fi discovered about the human condition? I think I'll take my entertainment...
(poor comeback re relaxing... happy face almost sold it though)

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 30 janvier 2011 - 12:18 .

[BurnedToast]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Whats this about the reaper made from humans?
It wasn't finished and really it give us insight into what reapers really are.

It didn't give us any insights though. It made absolutely zero sense, at all. The baby terminator was just stupid on so many levels. It just made the whole game's plot seem dumb, especially since the collecters were such pathetic pushovers (one ship that gets destroyed by a single frigate, ooo scary) there's no way they'd be able to collect the required millions of humans to finish the smoothie (unless the humans have a *LOT* of colonies in the terminus systems) anyway. 

90% of the game was just collecting and upgrading pokemon  teammates that will probably all (or mostly all) get the wrex treatment for ME3. Yeah, it really does feel pointless when you think about it. 

[Destroy Raiden_]

In ME we learned about the reapers that the protheans were wiped out with a small spared science team that's future works could impact our own fight now and we stopped the Citadel from turning into a relay and there by delaying the reaper invasion for some unspecified amount of time.

In ME2 we dropped that went to fight collectors that turned out to be zombie protheans and were so bad ass they only had 1 ship and 1 mega base and 1 lame terminator baby how were they going to take on the galaxy again? The problem with 2 is we had a clear cut bad race to fight and 2 decided to get the next best thing its like what we did w/ Saddam w/ the war on terror we went trying to take down bin laden and sense he hide like a rat the president+war cabinet decided well Saddam's right there if we can't get main bad guy A we'll get the next best thing. Same plot as 2 just as wtf. Not the stated main objective of ME I can't agree with that concept you don't say I'm going after A then decide to just go after B because its in your way or just plainly in both cases just there.

The best way to show how a 3 part plot advancement should go is w/ Lord of the rings LR main character gets the ring, gets allies, and starts the journey to destroy the ring. LR2 main character meets new allies retains and looses some old, finds out just how bad having said ring is to the world order and continues towards goal of LR destroying the ring. LR3 finally makes it there and w/ help from past and new allies gets to mountain and destroys the ring.

there was no LR get ring head towards evil empire to destroy ring, LR2 stop progressing towards evil empire instead go bug the orks and try to blow them up in a way to sabotage evil empire before proceeding to destroy ring then LR3 we're back on path to destroying that ring.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 30 janvier 2011 - 07:04 .

[JeffZero]

I contend Mass Effect 2 is actually not too far removed from The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers in a lot of ways. I mean, sure, it feels more tangential. But it's not half as bad (in my humble mind) as some vocal dissidents have proclaimed.

In both cases the second installment busies itself with introducing new faces and new factions. Then through there we get more exploration of universe and culture. Although it has to be said that Fellowship of the Ring does a superb enough job of that as-is, I didn't feel like I was fully immersed in Tolkien's fantasy epic until the follow-up.

Similarly and often-compared, Star Wars: A New Hope is a very good one to bring up because like the first Mass Effect game, it throws us into some of these characters and a more narrow scope and ends with a bang. The Empire Strikes Back does a better job than Mass Effect 2 at upping the ante when it comes to the overarching plot but like ME2 and The Two Towers it largely concerns itself with cracking open its universe so as to expose viewers to a massive world.

Much as I enjoyed the Shire, the Citadel and Tatooine, it wasn't until Helm's Deep and Rohan, Ilium and the quarian fleet, Bespin and Lando Calrissian that I got a sense of scope that will last with me forever. All that remains to be seen is if Mass Effect 3 will hand us cities of white and crises of conscience, gigantic space battles and epic interpersonal conflict or merely fail and offer us an unworthy payoff to what I consider two thirds of a terrific trilogy.

[bjdbwea]

The problem with the writing in ME 2 isn't that it tries to focus on the characters. As you said, other second parts of trilogies have done the same.

ME 2 introduces many new characters, while the ones that mattered in ME 1 had to take the backseat. This does not usually happen in second parts of trilogies. And indeed, ME 2 feels more like a common sequel to a successful game, than like an actual second part of the promised trilogy.

Furthermore, even the new characters aren't as well written and as detailed as they would need to be in a supposedly character-driven story. They have their hour of glory during their loyalty quests, and then there are the rather short romances. But apart from that, they don't interact with each other, they don't care about each other, they have almost no interjections during the missions, they play no real role in the main story, they have too little dialogue with Shepard.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 janvier 2011 - 08:33 .

[JeffZero]

Your point about the lack of interaction between characters is too true. The thing is, though, barring the elevator scenes in ME1 there isn't a whole lot of that in the first game, either, is there? Hence that's the sort of thing I just wish we saw a thousand percent more of in general.

[bjdbwea]

JeffZero wrote...

The thing is, though, barring the elevator scenes in ME1 there isn't a whole lot of that in the first game, either, is there?

Not a whole lot by our definition perhaps, because we gamers (or at least the RPG fans) always want more dialogue for the characters. But there is definitely a lot more in ME 1 than there is in ME 2. And certainly not only during the elevator rides.

Just remember the briefings after each story mission. Yes, some companions sometimes just sat there and didn't even say anything. But at least they were there, as a part of the story. Why is it only Miranda and Jacob who are there when a new companion was recruited in ME 2? Why does the main story rely so much on conversations between just Shepard and TIM? You might say that this makes sense in the context of the story, but then the story needs to be written differently, to allow the companions to be involved. Even more so if it's supposed to be a character-driven story.

And you should also remember that the companions in ME 1 had a lot to say during the missions. They gave their opinions, they talked to each other. Sometimes with one-liners, sometimes when Shepard talked to them, and quite often also during the cutscenes. This all is almost completely missing in ME 2. Again, perhaps the writing didn't even allow that many interjections. For example, during some main story missions and during virtually all side quests, there aren't even any NPCs or dialogue cutscenes to begin with. And even on the Citadel, there aren't many side quests or NPCs to talk to. But why is that? Because the writing is bad. The game should have been written differently, to allow for more situations during which the companions can play a role. Or perhaps because the writers intentionally tried to prevent these situations where more dialogue would have been needed, either because the target audience shouldn't be bothered with too much "boring" talking, or perhaps simply because of time constraints. In any case, ME 2 is in this regard much worse than ME 1, even though a successor usually is supposed to improve.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 janvier 2011 - 09:17 .

[JeffZero]

That was a well written post and it's convinced me to change my tone a bit. The fact that I grew up with games like Xenogears, chock full of party interaction, really spoils me. To a point it can be argued (mainly in ME1, though, as it were) that the crew is on a ticking mission and needs to rush forth.

In ME2 this is true to a point but not so much; you get so much more feeling that it's natural for Shepard to be seeing the sights in Ilium when Saren isn't running around. So by extension we should see even more interaction and that definitely falls short.

Argh. I would love to see Thane say even just a single thing to Grunt. I hope your statement about "target audience" is proven false with ME3 but I'm definitely inclined to agree.

[Kovnic]

ME2 wasnt pointless, at least in my eyes, for 1 reason :- Allies

Its obvious that part of the plot in ME2 is focused on creating or alienating other races that may be able to help save humanity. This happens a little in ME1 with the Rachni (Spelling?), but even more so in ME2 :-

Did you save the Rachni?(ME1) They will help save Earth
Did you help the Geth? (ME2) They will help save Earth
Did you Save the Krogen Genophage cure data? (ME2) They will help save Earth (This last one may be a bit of a stretch, but I kind of like the idea of the krogen coming out of retirement to save the galaxy...again)

Then of course there is the Final choice...

Did you chum up to Cerberus and did you keep the collector base? (ME2) = Either way cerberus will help, afer all, humanities survival is their No1 goal if you believe the Illusive mans bull. ( If you kept the base it will probably not be much use, as the Reapers WANT everyone to use the technology of previous races...its easier for them that way)

ME2 Basically sets up to go one of 2 ways in ME3 - Your Shep was a shining beacon of co-operation to other species and for all his good deeds, the other races decide that Shep showed them the value of working together after all and come to the rescue. This being the 1st time in a Reaper invasion that all space faring races worked togather against them and drive them out. (all thanks to Humanity and their ability to "bring people togther", hence why the reapers are so interested in them - Its all very Babylon 5 lol)

Or Your Shep was a shining beacon of " get your Alien ass off my lawn or I am getting the shotgun". You pushed all the other races away and did everything you could to weaken them and further humanity. End result probably being a "narrow win" (or maybe even a loss if there will be such a thing as a "Bad ending"), as humanity attempts to fight the reapers off with little or no help from the other races.

If you did a bit of both I imagin the end result will do the same.

In a nut shell I saw ME2 as just creating a much needed depth to the overall picture. So while, yes, it didnt advance the "main plot" of the reapers, the choices you made WILL impact on how well the fight goes once the reapers get here in ME3. Kind of like loyalty missions decided which of your crew survive the last battle in ME2, I think in ME3 the loyalty of the races to humanity/Shep will decdied how much help they give when the Reapers arrive, and so will dictate how much of humanity survives.

Of course its just my opinion, but thats how I see it playing out...

Modifié par Kovnic, 01 février 2011 - 03:47 .

[Legbiter]

ME 1: Learned who the Reapers are and what they do.



ME 2: Learned why the Reapers do what they do. Also, got a good look at the current fault lines in the ME universe.



ME 3: Put 1 & 2 together to come up with a way to take out the Reapers, with extreme prejudice.

[GuardianAngel470]

Doctah T wrote...

To be fair, I misspoke in order to directly answer the OP's question.

Mass Effect 2 isn't pointless, but I feel its main story was. The side missions added things: more understanding of the geth/quarian confilct, the rewriting/destruction of the heretic geth, the genophage... All of those things are in side missions. Important? Definitely, but they're not part of ME2's plot. That aside, nearly any sequel will provide more information about the setting and the important plot elements.

I didn't necessarily want to fight a Reaper, or find a weapon to fight them, or any of those other things that people think should have happened. But a little more insight would have been nice. The smoothie concept gave us a why, but a very, very shaky one. It raises more questions then answers. 

All that said, the only thing from the main plot that will carry over into the next game is the decision whether or not to keep the Collector base. It feels like another sidequest.

Edit: I'd also like to state that I do love both Mass Effects, probably ME2 a little moreso than the first. But in my opinion, ME2 had some shortcomings, story-wise. Unfortunately, after getting cozy with ME2's combat system, I have trouble playing more than an hour and a half into ME1 without losing interest. Which blows, I love the game and the combat is such a small aspect of the experience that it seems a silly thing for me to lose interest over.

That's because they weren't side missions. That was the game, that was the entire purpose of the game. How many times do the Devs have to say that the game is about the characters before you believe them? Honestly, it's becoming quite ridiculous now.

ME2 = Characters, not Collectors or Reapers. The Collectors were merely a slightly lazy excuse for the characters, but one that was introduced by Drew Karpyshyn in Ascension.