462 réponses à ce sujet

[JeanLuc761]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
That's because they weren't side missions. That was the game, that was the entire purpose of the game. How many times do the Devs have to say that the game is about the characters before you believe them? Honestly, it's becoming quite ridiculous now.

ME2 = Characters, not Collectors or Reapers. The Collectors were merely a slightly lazy excuse for the characters, but one that was introduced by Drew Karpyshyn in Ascension.

Because the people who don't believe that are the people who don't WANT to believe that.  Personally, I thought Mass Effect 2 succeeded in spades when it came to a character oriented story (though would it kill you to have some character-character interaction, Bioware?).  Beyond that, we also learned about why the Reapers do what they do, and what their eventual plan is for us.  Most importantly, we laid the foundation for allying all the races with Shepard so we can combat the Reaper threat en masse. 

[Slayer299]

So, basically what you're saying is that everyone who was disappointed with the story just don't want to believe that it was *only* about the characters and getting them loyal. That they are all willfully blind to the obvious then. So then with that thought, does that mean the the Collectors were just the peanut butter to make everything stick together?

[Moiaussi]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
That's because they weren't side missions. That was the game, that was the entire purpose of the game. How many times do the Devs have to say that the game is about the characters before you believe them? Honestly, it's becoming quite ridiculous now.

ME2 = Characters, not Collectors or Reapers. The Collectors were merely a slightly lazy excuse for the characters, but one that was introduced by Drew Karpyshyn in Ascension.

Because the people who don't believe that are the people who don't WANT to believe that.  Personally, I thought Mass Effect 2 succeeded in spades when it came to a character oriented story (though would it kill you to have some character-character interaction, Bioware?).  Beyond that, we also learned about why the Reapers do what they do, and what their eventual plan is for us.  Most importantly, we laid the foundation for allying all the races with Shepard so we can combat the Reaper threat en masse. 

Actually it is more like having a bag of chips for dinner. They can be amazingly tasty potato chips, and based on when you had them, they are technically dinner. But that doesn't make them anything remotely resembling a balanced meal.

The Dev's can say that they are what they served for dinner all they want, and some people can be quite happy with a meal consisting of nothing more than potato chips.

But that doesn't make them as fulfilling as a good, proper meal. Or in this case, a good, proper plot.

[JeanLuc761]

Slayer299 wrote...

So, basically what you're saying is that everyone who was disappointed with the story just don't want to believe that it was *only* about the characters and getting them loyal. That they are all willfully blind to the obvious then. So then with that thought, does that mean the the Collectors were just the peanut butter to make everything stick together?

I was utilizing hyperbole to make a statement.  A lot of the criticisms towards Mass Effect 2's story (as far as the Reaper plot goes) are perfectly justified.  I had my own frustrations with the game. 

My point is that people should not be treating the recruitment/loyalty missions like side quests because they absolutely were not.  They were the main quest, and this is confirmed by the game itself and by Bioware.  That's all I'm saying.

[Slayer299]

I understand now, but to me they didn't feel like a main quest anything though. For them to be *the* story, it felt like I was eating chinese food, semi filling and tasty but that goes away in 35 minutes leaving me still hungry for something more.

[Bourne Endeavor]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

My point is that people should not be treating the recruitment/loyalty missions like side quests because they absolutely were not.  They were the main quest, and this is confirmed by the game itself and by Bioware.  That's all I'm saying.

Which is somewhat ironic when you consider the majority had virtually nothing to do with the plot. The overarching plot of Mass Effect is to prevent the Reaper cycle. Building a team to eliminate their subsidiaries is good, if not intriguing should they develop and expand upon the existing narrative. This is the primary irritation people who vocal discontentment have.

The Collectors and all story pertaining to them is an inconsistent mess and at the conclusion we are scarcely better off than where we begin initially. To complicate matters further. We are aware the probability none of these characters will have a prominent role in Mass Effect 3. If such becomes the case, ME2's relevance is virtually nonexistent.

To retain the dinner metaphor. ME2 is akin to having ordered a full course meal with all the fixings and yes, dessert on the side. The appetizers may be exquisite and the dessert, phenomenal but if the main course is adequate. You will have left wanting more.

[GuardianAngel470]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

My point is that people should not be treating the recruitment/loyalty missions like side quests because they absolutely were not.  They were the main quest, and this is confirmed by the game itself and by Bioware.  That's all I'm saying.

Which is somewhat ironic when you consider the majority had virtually nothing to do with the plot. The overarching plot of Mass Effect is to prevent the Reaper cycle. Building a team to eliminate their subsidiaries is good, if not intriguing should they develop and expand upon the existing narrative. This is the primary irritation people who vocal discontentment have.

The Collectors and all story pertaining to them is an inconsistent mess and at the conclusion we are scarcely better off than where we begin initially. To complicate matters further. We are aware the probability none of these characters will have a prominent role in Mass Effect 3. If such becomes the case, ME2's relevance is virtually nonexistent.

To retain the dinner metaphor. ME2 is akin to having ordered a full course meal with all the fixings and yes, dessert on the side. The appetizers may be exquisite and the dessert, phenomenal but if the main course is adequate. You will have left wanting more.

Yeah, you're definitely ignoring facts in this statement. Does nothing to combat the Reaper threat huh? Geth-Quarian conflict, Genophage, Krogan Allies (Grunt), Asari allies (Samara), counterpart leader (Garrus), Intel Source for independence (Liara), and most of all a bad ass team going into ME3 and a ship that can kick butt against any organic driven fleet.

With geth allies Shepard has the single greatest R & D department in existance and you're saying that won't be beneficial against the Reapers? You're saying that a unified krogan at your command in Wrex and Grunt won't benefit against the Reapers, that a Genophage cure won't motivate them to fight hard?

You're saying that peace between the Geth and the Quarians won't benefit against the Reapers? Just because Bioware didn't advance it the way you expected them to doesn't mean they didn't advance it at all. These characters and what they represent with their connections to larger factions, connections that you help forge in their loyalty missions, advance the greater plot a lot.

Shepard started out ME2 with only Cerberus as an ally against the Reapers. The council disowned him, his friends deserted him, and, if you were paragon in ME1, the only other ally you might have was the Rachni.

At the End of ME2 you have the Quarian flotilla, the Geth under your command, the Krogan at your side, the Rachni rebuilding and their pledge of support, the SB as a close friend, and possible proof of the Reapers to regain the Alliance and Council races.

Hell, you even have a possibly budding friendship with Aria and the knowledge that you might know an old friend of hers. This gives you access to the Terminus systems and influence in that area.

That's a heck of a lot more power to fight the reapers with don't you think?

[Hanar Shakespeare]

Sith Reaper wrote...

Doctah T wrote...

 Mass Effect 1 introduced the Reapers. It was the beginning of the plot. ME2 was pointless because it doesn't build off the plot of ME1, and it doesn't add anything in the end. After ME2, you're in the exact same spot as you were in after ME1; the Reapers are coming, some time. You don't learn anything about the Reapers or their plan. And its plot is almost completely isolated form the first game - if there were no first game, Mass Effect 2 would be fine as a stand-alone title.

I disagree. 

Mass Effect 2 developed the story, and was actually quite important in the context of Mass Effect 3. The development of characters, and their survival, I predict will have quite an impact on Mass Effect 3. Who knows what their survival will entail? The game is not out, so we cannot know, but we can kind of see what is building for the next game.

I also reckon part of the game was, through stopping the Collectors, changing the world around you. The krogan genophage cure, the quarian/geth war, and other important choices are made through the characters on the side of stopping the Collectors - that, I believe, is an enormous part of Mass Effect 2's importance.

Next - it gave us a deeper look at the universe. We saw the asari, we saw the krogan, we saw the quarians, we saw the colonies and Terminus Systems - we saw things that were not yet explored. This in its self is a great part of Mass Effect 2's importance.

I believe that many wanted to see more of a direct confrontation with the Reapers, but how can Shepard do that? At the end of Mass Effect 1, we know the Reapers are still coming - but how is Shepard supposed to find them? I think that is part of Mass Effect 2's importance as well. Through Mass Effect 1, we know what the Reapers are, and what they do - in Mass Effect 2, we see why and what really happens to the subjugated species. I believe that what we see in terms of the Collectors and Reapers in Mass Effect 2 (species twisted or turned into husks, harvested into Reapers, Harbinger's role, seeing more of the mystery of the Reapers in the Base and derelict Reaper) is going to be re-connected in Mass Effect 3. Not only for us to find out what really created the Reapers, what they do, and why, but also so Shepard can stop them.

Further more, the Reaper plot is the over-arching plot of the series, but it takes time to develop. Saren and the Collectors were both immediate threats that Shepard had to deal with - and by doing so, Shepard learns more and more about the Reapers. It is my belief that Mass Effect 3 will connect it all, so Shepard can find a way to stop them once and for all. 

P.S. Can't we just like both Mass Effects for once? I seem to see a lot of "Mass Effect 1 had better ____" "But Mass Effect 2 has ____" as if they are from completely separate series. It's actually perplexing why there is such a division.

I agree with Sith Reaper.

[Bourne Endeavor]

@Guardian

You are making presumption based on speculation of the fanbase. The majority of what you stated did not in actuality take place. Shepard was merely given the option to state an opinion if (s)he believed the Quarians should go to war with the Geth or refrain from hostilities. There is absolutely no indication the will assist Shepard. It is assumed they would for obvious reason however the game does not specific make reference to either. It is just as probable the Quarian disregard Shepard's advice and fight the Geth as it is they abruptly become Shepard's unified army.

The Krogan offer even less as our only involvement is to salvage or destroy a potential Genophage cure. Wrex does not insinuate an army of Krogan will be upon Shepard's beckon nor is it necessarily viable for their species. Krogan are limited in numbers and near extinction. Expecting a militia is wishful thinking derived from fan adoration.

The decision involving the Geth is rewrite or destruction. The game states that remaining Geth are still thought hostile. Granted, whilst we can theorize by attempting to influence peace between the Quarian and Geth could instill loyalty under the commander of Shepard. It is somewhat illogical. Why would the Geth trust organic life based upon the actions of a single human so readily? If ME3 is a year or two subsequent to its predecessor. It would be foolhardy from their perspective to be anything less than optimistically weary but most certainly not an able bodied ally.

The Asari is complete fanbase perception. Samara is a lone warrior. Her actions hold no bearing on the decisions of an entire species. While she may speak favorably of Shepard. It does not secure allegiance of any magnitude.

Your misinterpretation of Mass Effect 2 is baffling. You have nothing of what you mentioned at the conclusion, excluding words of praise from potentially influential people. The Geth are not remotely under your command nor are the Quarian or Krogan. If ME3's plot retains the "Gather an army" philosophy BioWare apparently adheres to. These species will cooperate with Shepard and possibly the Alliance/Cerberus to save their species. Not because Shepard is some charismatic messiah.

Liara cannot be included in any discussion pertaining to Mass Effect 2 specifically because she is not apart of it. DLC is a separate arc and often based on feedback from the fanbase. Frankly, Lair of the Shadow Broker's plot was better than the main plot of ME2.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 01 février 2011 - 07:19 .

[AkiKishi]

ME 2 went more sideways than forwards..



If it only took the Reapers 2 years to come up with an alternate route why the big rush in ME? If you are an immortal race why not just wait a 50 years and then see what shape Shepard is in when he comes to fight you.... New Vehicle for ME3 the Hover Wheelchair.



From what I could make of the plot I came up with this.



Every 50k years the Reapers choose a race to add to their number. They collect it, distil it and put in a squidshaped outer shell (guess Reaper #1 was a squid race). It then "grows" into a Reaper.



This would mean 1 reaper is born every 50k years. But for an immortal race lack of births is not going to doom your race or anything. So the whole need to "rush" seems very out of character unless there is something that actually threatens the Reapers, or they are trying to "save" Humanity as a gentic imprint before something really bad happens.

[GuardianAngel470]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

@Guardian

You are making presumption based on speculation of the fanbase. The majority of what you stated did not in actuality take place. Shepard was merely given the option to state an opinion if (s)he believed the Quarians should go to war with the Geth or refrain from hostilities. There is absolutely no indication the will assist Shepard. It is assumed they would for obvious reason however the game does not specific make reference to either. It is just as probable the Quarian disregard Shepard's advice and fight the Geth as it is they abruptly become Shepard's unified army.

The Krogan offer even less as our only involvement is to salvage or destroy a potential Genophage cure. Wrex does not insinuate an army of Krogan will be upon Shepard's beckon nor is it necessarily viable for their species. Krogan are limited in numbers and near extinction. Expecting a militia is wishful thinking derived from fan adoration.

The decision involving the Geth is rewrite or destruction. The game states that remaining Geth are still thought hostile. Granted, whilst we can theorize by attempting to influence peace between the Quarian and Geth could instill loyalty under the commander of Shepard. It is somewhat illogical. Why would the Geth trust organic life based upon the actions of a single human so readily? If ME3 is a year or two subsequent to its predecessor. It would be foolhardy from their perspective to be anything less than optimistically weary but most certainly not an able bodied ally.

The Asari is complete fanbase perception. Samara is a lone warrior. Her actions hold no bearing on the decisions of an entire species. While she may speak favorably of Shepard. It does not secure allegiance of any magnitude.

Your misinterpretation of Mass Effect 2 is baffling. You have nothing of what you mentioned at the conclusion, excluding words of praise from potentially influential people. The Geth are not remotely under your command nor are the Quarian or Krogan. If ME3's plot retains the "Gather an army" philosophy BioWare apparently adheres to. These species will cooperate with Shepard and possibly the Alliance/Cerberus to save their species. Not because Shepard is some charismatic messiah.

Liara cannot be included in any discussion pertaining to Mass Effect 2 specifically because she is not apart of it. DLC is a separate arc and often based on feedback from the fanbase. Frankly, Lair of the Shadow Broker's plot was better than the main plot of ME2.

We must be playing two different games then, because the Geth most certainly do pledge their allegience when Legion does. It has to do with how that species functions, on its need for concensus. If one mobile platform that represents the will of the collective joins me, then they all join me and because Legion states that they came to me because "My code was superior" that means, by basic logical deduction, that they answer to me.

Maybe not completely, as its dialog when asking for co-development and its response when it has nothing to say suggest it must choose what orders to follow, but enough that they are a powerful ally.

The only time you could doubt that truth is if you don't believe anything Legion says. In which case you must not believe the Rachni queen either.

As for the Quarians, between their acknowledgement of the Reaper threat and their reverance of Tali, it is very safe to assume that they will be an ally in ME3. The fact that they acknoledge the threat is established in her loyalty mission. Whether they are willing to heed my warning or not is debatable, but from several of the NPC comments when walking around the liveship it can be gathered that there is a chance that they will. Add in Tali and Legion (Who I always take with me to prove the Geth's benevolence) and that possibility of influence is multiplied. The fact that a Geth helped retake one of the Quarian's vessels that was occupied by other geth will, if implemented, influence the Quarian's perception of the Geth.

The Krogans are, by all in game measurements, largely unified under Wrex. It appears from dialog that there were still holdouts, namely Uvenk who you kill, upsetting the power balance and reaffirming Wrex's position. Between that coup and the defeat of a Thresher Maw in Grunt's loyalty mission and the finding of a partial Genophage cure and the destruction of Clan Weyrloc in Mordin's Shepard has sufficiently proved who is strongest, a trait even the female Krogan acknowledge. That establishes Shepard as someone the Krogan would be willing to follow and thus when Wrex eventually mobilizes them for War (It is in the species best interest) they will be willing to follow Shepard's lead. The Genophage cure will most likely be used as a reward as opposed to a motivation however, in that I was most likely wrong.

Samara could prove very powerful in negotiations and in convincing the Council and the Asari as a species of the Reaper threat. From the way they are held up by the asari on Illium it can be assumed that their word is law. "No law-abiding asari would question a Justicar's orders" says to me that the word of a Justicar could have a drastic impact on asari perception of the Reaper threat. This impact would not be possible without first recruiting Samara and then gaining her loyalty and friendship.

And Liara absolutely can be included because her DLC was a planned story arc, meant to influence the plot. It is a part of ME2 because it was not released as a stand alone package and because it was set up with in-game dialog and quests.

[Sandbox47]

ME2 tells us about the Geth, Shadow Broker, Aria, Blue Suns, Eclipse (blood pack is meh), Heretics, Reapers (how they are created. Maybe you'll try make your own in ME3 to. Don't bash the idea, I'm adlibing), Justicars and a lot of other things that we can throw at the Reapers in ME3.

They are building up to the solution. Typical story progression. Just read books like Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings, Eragon, Artemis Fowl, anything with Trudi Canavan and so on. It's all about giving the hero seemingly random options to force him to go in one certain way through deduction.

[Moiaussi]

In Wheel of TIme, though, there was still a steady character growth of the original characters. Even then it did start to get tiresome that it seemed like you would read the new book just to find out who is getting kidnapped or otherwise in trouble this time.



Lord of the Rings there was a strong tie to the central plot throughout, and especially the influence of the One Ring on the various factions of Middle Earth.



Not read the other references.



Comparing ME2 with the Two Towers is like comparing "Tom Bombadil and Other Verses from the Red Book" is part of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. It is secondary works in the same setting, but doesn't really relate to the plot other than as background material.



Tali's missions in ME2 arguably do tie to the main plot but the others don't, really. The Krogan aren't represented by Grunt, they are represented by Wrex (or his understudy). There is no indication whatsoever that Mordin represents the Salarians. He doesn't vouch for you with the Council in any way. Garrus certainly doesn't represent the Turians. He resigned from C-Sec, and holds no position or influence with the Turian people.



Liara's theories still are not accepted by the Asari, and she only really in involved in LotSB (which definately does advance the main plot).



Jack's part should have been all about pirate structures and ensuring that either the Terminus pirates will not be a threat, or getting them onside. Instead it was just personal background info.



Don't get me wrong... as short stories and character studies they were great. As to tieing any of it into the central plot though? Not so much.

[Iakus]

Moiaussi wrote...

Don't get me wrong... as short stories and character studies they were great. As to tieing any of it into the central plot though? Not so much.

This.

TIme and again I found myself going "That was nice, but what does it have to do with anything?"

It was like if DAO took Allistair's search for his sister, Wynne's for her lost apprentice, Lelliana's feud with Marjorlane, Morrigan's discovery of her mother's plans for her, Shale's quest for Cadash Thaig, and so on, and made them the main storyline.  Yes, the quests are good.  Yes they give you a greater insight into the character but in the end, what did any of it have to do with the coming Blight?  The civil war?  The archdemon? 

[Capeo]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

@Guardian

You are making presumption based on speculation of the fanbase. The majority of what you stated did not in actuality take place. Shepard was merely given the option to state an opinion if (s)he believed the Quarians should go to war with the Geth or refrain from hostilities. There is absolutely no indication the will assist Shepard. It is assumed they would for obvious reason however the game does not specific make reference to either. It is just as probable the Quarian disregard Shepard's advice and fight the Geth as it is they abruptly become Shepard's unified army.

The Krogan offer even less as our only involvement is to salvage or destroy a potential Genophage cure. Wrex does not insinuate an army of Krogan will be upon Shepard's beckon nor is it necessarily viable for their species. Krogan are limited in numbers and near extinction. Expecting a militia is wishful thinking derived from fan adoration.

The decision involving the Geth is rewrite or destruction. The game states that remaining Geth are still thought hostile. Granted, whilst we can theorize by attempting to influence peace between the Quarian and Geth could instill loyalty under the commander of Shepard. It is somewhat illogical. Why would the Geth trust organic life based upon the actions of a single human so readily? If ME3 is a year or two subsequent to its predecessor. It would be foolhardy from their perspective to be anything less than optimistically weary but most certainly not an able bodied ally.

The Asari is complete fanbase perception. Samara is a lone warrior. Her actions hold no bearing on the decisions of an entire species. While she may speak favorably of Shepard. It does not secure allegiance of any magnitude.

Your misinterpretation of Mass Effect 2 is baffling. You have nothing of what you mentioned at the conclusion, excluding words of praise from potentially influential people. The Geth are not remotely under your command nor are the Quarian or Krogan. If ME3's plot retains the "Gather an army" philosophy BioWare apparently adheres to. These species will cooperate with Shepard and possibly the Alliance/Cerberus to save their species. Not because Shepard is some charismatic messiah.

Liara cannot be included in any discussion pertaining to Mass Effect 2 specifically because she is not apart of it. DLC is a separate arc and often based on feedback from the fanbase. Frankly, Lair of the Shadow Broker's plot was better than the main plot of ME2.

We must be playing two different games then, because the Geth most certainly do pledge their allegience when Legion does. It has to do with how that species functions, on its need for concensus. If one mobile platform that represents the will of the collective joins me, then they all join me and because Legion states that they came to me because "My code was superior" that means, by basic logical deduction, that they answer to me.

Maybe not completely, as its dialog when asking for co-development and its response when it has nothing to say suggest it must choose what orders to follow, but enough that they are a powerful ally.

The only time you could doubt that truth is if you don't believe anything Legion says. In which case you must not believe the Rachni queen either.

As for the Quarians, between their acknowledgement of the Reaper threat and their reverance of Tali, it is very safe to assume that they will be an ally in ME3. The fact that they acknoledge the threat is established in her loyalty mission. Whether they are willing to heed my warning or not is debatable, but from several of the NPC comments when walking around the liveship it can be gathered that there is a chance that they will. Add in Tali and Legion (Who I always take with me to prove the Geth's benevolence) and that possibility of influence is multiplied. The fact that a Geth helped retake one of the Quarian's vessels that was occupied by other geth will, if implemented, influence the Quarian's perception of the Geth.

The Krogans are, by all in game measurements, largely unified under Wrex. It appears from dialog that there were still holdouts, namely Uvenk who you kill, upsetting the power balance and reaffirming Wrex's position. Between that coup and the defeat of a Thresher Maw in Grunt's loyalty mission and the finding of a partial Genophage cure and the destruction of Clan Weyrloc in Mordin's Shepard has sufficiently proved who is strongest, a trait even the female Krogan acknowledge. That establishes Shepard as someone the Krogan would be willing to follow and thus when Wrex eventually mobilizes them for War (It is in the species best interest) they will be willing to follow Shepard's lead. The Genophage cure will most likely be used as a reward as opposed to a motivation however, in that I was most likely wrong.

Samara could prove very powerful in negotiations and in convincing the Council and the Asari as a species of the Reaper threat. From the way they are held up by the asari on Illium it can be assumed that their word is law. "No law-abiding asari would question a Justicar's orders" says to me that the word of a Justicar could have a drastic impact on asari perception of the Reaper threat. This impact would not be possible without first recruiting Samara and then gaining her loyalty and friendship.

And Liara absolutely can be included because her DLC was a planned story arc, meant to influence the plot. It is a part of ME2 because it was not released as a stand alone package and because it was set up with in-game dialog and quests.

Everything you are saying hinges on if you even did those loyalty missions.  You don't have to to finish the game.  They're not setting up anything.  You can finish the game with 90% of what you just said not even happening and with all those people dying.  For what you're saying to be true BW would have to have missions in ME3 to establish all that for every character that dies in ME2 on the save you're importing.  BW is not going to make that many contingencies.   

People need to face facts.  ME2 is a great game but it didn't move the plot along much and you're not going to have the team members that are still alive at the end in your squad in ME3.  They'll have cameos at best.  Honestly, that's what all your decisions amount to in these games.  It's never anything huge and it never will be because BW simply cannot write for all those variables.  It's simply not feasible from a game development standpoint.  They're not magicians.  The core plot will be the same no matter what your decisions.  The only difference will be who you are talking to to get your missions and who dies at the end. 

[aeetos21]

I think if I had wheels I'd be a wagon.



Can't change the world and you can't change what insanities people will jump to when they don't understand something. Personally I think they're just attention-starved but that's my opinion. It's pretty obvious right now why ME1 and ME2 were important but until BW confirms it for everybody in ME3 and it becomes canon no one on the forum network that is enjoying the attention and the drama will let this debate go - no matter how sensibly you try to explain things to them.



It'd be like trying to explain to a child that no there's no monster in the closet. You can tell them it a hundred times but until they actually have proof they'll keep knocking on your door and waking you up.

[bjdbwea]

I'd like to repeat this again: No one doubts that ME 2 was supposed to be character-driven. Yes, the developers said so themselves. We know that. The problem is, that especially for a character-driven game, the characters, especially the companions, have too little to say and are too passive, too static, too self-contained, too uninterested and too little involved with the main story. Their recruitment and loyalty quests are mostly fine as such, but that only makes these quests character-driven, or rather single-character-driven, because other characters rarely play a role. But a collection of character-driven short stories does not make the game as a whole character-driven.

It's similar with the idea of collecting allies: Yes, Shepard has done some favors for several parties. But never do they actually pledge help, never do they say much about Shepard's actual mission, in fact Shepard is rarely allowed to talk about the reaper threat at all. All of that might happen in ME 3, but until then, it's nothing but speculation. Those parties could just as well send Shepard nothing but an email, if ME 2 is any indication of BioWare/EA's intention to actually continue their own stories.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 01 février 2011 - 11:26 .

[Nightwriter]

iakus wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Don't get me wrong... as short stories and character studies they were great. As to tieing any of it into the central plot though? Not so much.

This.

TIme and again I found myself going "That was nice, but what does it have to do with anything?"

It was like if DAO took Allistair's search for his sister, Wynne's for her lost apprentice, Lelliana's feud with Marjorlane, Morrigan's discovery of her mother's plans for her, Shale's quest for Cadash Thaig, and so on, and made them the main storyline.  Yes, the quests are good.  Yes they give you a greater insight into the character but in the end, what did any of it have to do with the coming Blight?  The civil war?  The archdemon? 

Too right, but I would've minded it less in DA:O because even if the game had just been about their loyalty missions, the characters frequently interacted.

[upsettingshorts]

Depends. If the team comes back for ME3? Nope. If they don't? Yup. That's my view, anyway.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Too right, but I would've minded it less in DA:O because even if the game had just been about their loyalty missions, the characters frequently interacted.

Exactly.  Despite being a more plot-centered game, it still had better character development than ME 2.

[PsychoWARD23]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Depends. If the team comes back for ME3? Nope. If they don't? Yup. That's my view, anyway.

Mine too

[BurnedToast]

If ME2 was supposed to be a character driven story, then there would have been more character development.



I mean, look at KoToR/KoToR2 - those were both story driven games yet look what you could do with your teammates. ME2 isn't even close and you say it's a character driven game? One loyalty mission that, while it has a P/R option the option makes absolutely no difference to the teammate is.... not impressive.

[Capeo]

bjdbwea wrote...

I'd like to repeat this again: No one doubts that ME 2 was supposed to be character-driven. Yes, the developers said so themselves. We know that. The problem is, that especially for a character-driven game, the characters, especially the companions, have too little to say and are too passive, too static, too self-contained, too uninterested and too little involved with the main story. Their recruitment and loyalty quests are mostly fine as such, but that only makes these quests character-driven, or rather single-character-driven, because other characters rarely play a role. But a collection of character-driven short stories does not make the game as a whole character-driven.

Very true.  Since DA:O has already been brought up it's hard not to point out how, though the structure of collecting a team was similar to ME2, the interaction between teammates is worlds better.  You really felt they had distinct personalities because they would clash with each other.  Talk to each other.  Agreeing with Morgana invariably pissed off someone else in your party.  And so it was with other teammates.  In ME2 everything was so compartmentalized I never felt like I had a team.  Adding in two scripted encounters where teammates fight is no substitute for ongoing character development. 

bjdbwea wrote...

It's similar with the idea of collecting allies: Yes, Shepard has done some favors for several parties. But never do they actually pledge help, never do they say much about Shepard's actual mission, in fact Shepard is rarely allowed to talk about the reaper threat at all. All of that might happen in ME 3, but until then, it's nothing but speculation. Those parties could just as well send Shepard nothing but an email, if ME 2 is any indication of BioWare/EA's intention to actually continue their own stories.

This is another indication, aside from the techinical development part of it, that your team is not coming back as squad members.  BW was very careful to make sure the "mission" that was constantly talked about only went as far as the Collectors.  All of Shepards pep talks, all his interactions with the squad, never go on to the bigger picture.  Nobody ever says, "Okay, now let's get the Reapers."  In fact his final rallying cut scene during the SM is rather bizzare because he appeals to how the Collectors are doing all this stuff to us.  That "us" is humans though and he's talking to a squad that is mainly aliens.  After the SM, if you talk to your crew everyone just offers their opinion about your decision to keep or destroy the base.  There's no "Now we have our work cut out for us" type discussions.

Really, in ME2, what real help has he gathered?  He has no commitment from anybody.  The Council still doesn't believe in the Reapers (which is a ridiculous plot point anyway), no particular race has committed any help, there's no big picture at all.  The only thing that points to the future is LotSB because at least now he has an ally that can offer significant help, but that was DLC after the fact.

[JamieCOTC]

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 02 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Capeo]

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.

ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.

Modifié par Capeo, 02 février 2011 - 05:22 .