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Was ME2 really that pointless?


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#101
Whatever42

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Capeo wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.


ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.


Nonsense. Christina Norman tweeted that there would be significant consquences for letting your team die in ME2 so there are definately plans for continuity there. We just don't know the form of that continuity.

ME2 was a reboot absolutely, that they always intended to release on a new platform. However, there is no reason to imagine that they would reboot the game again, especially with such a short development timeframe.

#102
MajesticJazz

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Doctah T wrote...

 Mass Effect 1 introduced the Reapers. It was the beginning of the plot. ME2 was pointless because it doesn't build off the plot of ME1, and it doesn't add anything in the end. After ME2, you're in the exact same spot as you were in after ME1; the Reapers are coming, some time. You don't learn anything about the Reapers or their plan. And its plot is almost completely isolated form the first game - if there were no first game, Mass Effect 2 would be fine as a stand-alone title.


This

#103
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Pointless or not, it all depends on ME3.

#104
DarthSliver

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Capeo wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.


ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.


Well in Dragon Age Awakening if you started a new character there it was lvl 18. They could do something similar to that effect for Mass Effect 3, so we can in essences keep our main sheperd and his/her lvl.  

#105
Wulfram

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DarthSliver wrote...

Well in Dragon Age Awakening if you started a new character there it was lvl 18. They could do something similar to that effect for Mass Effect 3, so we can in essences keep our main sheperd and his/her lvl.  


It's tough on newbies to expect them to handle a high level character with a variety of powers, and have to work out where to spend their points and stuff

#106
Capeo

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.


ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.


Nonsense. Christina Norman tweeted that there would be significant consquences for letting your team die in ME2 so there are definately plans for continuity there. We just don't know the form of that continuity.

ME2 was a reboot absolutely, that they always intended to release on a new platform. However, there is no reason to imagine that they would reboot the game again, especially with such a short development timeframe.


BW thinks consequences equal cameos.  If there was any intent to use the squad members of ME2 as your squad in ME3 there would have been some mention of the next step to combat the Reapers in ME2 of which there is none.  Honestly?  What do expect a dev to say?  They've been talking consequences since day one but not one single decision in ME1 changes the outcome of ME2.

I'm sure there will be continuity but it won't greatly effect the core plot.  No choice has yet and none will.  BW is not going to make five games in one to deal with every eventuality.  They have to get from A to B and the rest will be mostly window dressing. 

Also, who ever said they intended to release it on PS3 from day one?  Please point me to someone who said that.  Not that that makes a difference.  No major release will ever come out that can't stand on its own.  They won't do it.  Not to mention, just from a mechanics standpoint, they have to come up with a plot reason as to why you get to remake your Shepard and why their powers are starting from scratch.  Every sequel does.

#107
Capeo

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DarthSliver wrote...

Capeo wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.


ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.


Well in Dragon Age Awakening if you started a new character there it was lvl 18. They could do something similar to that effect for Mass Effect 3, so we can in essences keep our main sheperd and his/her lvl.  


Awakening was an expansion of an existing game.  It's called Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening.  It essentially existed to raise the level cap like Broken Steel did for Fallout 3.  Nobody who hasn't played Dragon Age: Origins is playing Awakening.  Such is not so for the transition from ME2 to 3.

There are also so few powers in ME that importing your character as is leaves no place to go.  They can't add a bunch more because then someone starting from scratch will never get to utilize them.  I can, though, see them giving you some kind of bonus for importing a save.  A bump in experience, a bonus power, bonus armor/weapons/resources or something to that effect.

#108
Wulfram

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Capeo wrote...
I can, though, see them giving you some kind of bonus for importing a save.  A bump in experience, a bonus power, bonus armor/weapons/resources or something to that effect.


As long as I keep my Widow sniper rifle...

#109
Whatever42

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Oh, I don't care about starting my level advancement from scratch. That's totally unimportant to me.



As far as porting it to the PS3 from day 1, given project ramp up times and development time, I guarantee that was in the works well before the release of ME2 on the X-Box/PC. Bioware/EA likely had a year exclusivity agreement on ME2 for the X-Box and they were ready with the PS3 version immediately following that.



Yes, Bioware could be jerking us around with terms like "significant consquences". We have seem them do it with terms like "deep customization". I would never expect a decision in ME1 or ME2 affect the ability to satisfactorily complete ME3. Bioware decisions are like picking the wallpaper for the kitchen, not like remodeling it to your taste. But I'm still hopeful that several party members will have significant roles in ME3. If not as party member, from Wrex to Liara level intereaction.

#110
Capeo

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, I don't care about starting my level advancement from scratch. That's totally unimportant to me.

As far as porting it to the PS3 from day 1, given project ramp up times and development time, I guarantee that was in the works well before the release of ME2 on the X-Box/PC. Bioware/EA likely had a year exclusivity agreement on ME2 for the X-Box and they were ready with the PS3 version immediately following that.


I'm sorry, but that's all speculation.  I'd have to hear it from the horse's mouth to even consider that to be true.  That notwithstanding, the platform switch is not the reason for the reboot.  What do possibly think would be different if, taking your assumption to be true, they knew from the beginning that it wouldn't be released on the PS3?  Do you somehow think the plot would have been different?
 

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Yes, Bioware could be jerking us around with terms like "significant consquences". We have seem them do it with terms like "deep customization". I would never expect a decision in ME1 or ME2 affect the ability to satisfactorily complete ME3. Bioware decisions are like picking the wallpaper for the kitchen, not like remodeling it to your taste. But I'm still hopeful that several party members will have significant roles in ME3. If not as party member, from Wrex to Liara level intereaction.


If that's the level of impact you're talking about then I'm sure you won't be disappointed.  I think you'll get cameos from most all of the squad.

#111
JamieCOTC

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Capeo wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.


ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.


I totally agree w/ you on the reboot, but the team will return in some capacity in ME3. All but confirmed.  Having Tali in your good graces will most likely help fordge alliances w/ the Quarians in ME3.  Just one example of gaining outside aid through the ME2 team. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 02 février 2011 - 06:49 .


#112
CroGamer002

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This thread again.



We will find out in ME3 did ME1 and ME2 had any point in trilogy.

End of discussion.

#113
Whatever42

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Capeo wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Oh, I don't care about starting my level advancement from scratch. That's totally unimportant to me.

As far as porting it to the PS3 from day 1, given project ramp up times and development time, I guarantee that was in the works well before the release of ME2 on the X-Box/PC. Bioware/EA likely had a year exclusivity agreement on ME2 for the X-Box and they were ready with the PS3 version immediately following that.


I'm sorry, but that's all speculation.  I'd have to hear it from the horse's mouth to even consider that to be true.  That notwithstanding, the platform switch is not the reason for the reboot.  What do possibly think would be different if, taking your assumption to be true, they knew from the beginning that it wouldn't be released on the PS3?  Do you somehow think the plot would have been different?
 

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Yes, Bioware could be jerking us around with terms like "significant consquences". We have seem them do it with terms like "deep customization". I would never expect a decision in ME1 or ME2 affect the ability to satisfactorily complete ME3. Bioware decisions are like picking the wallpaper for the kitchen, not like remodeling it to your taste. But I'm still hopeful that several party members will have significant roles in ME3. If not as party member, from Wrex to Liara level intereaction.


If that's the level of impact you're talking about then I'm sure you won't be disappointed.  I think you'll get cameos from most all of the squad.


Well, I want something deeper than Conrad Verner cameos. Liara level cameos would be great, maybe even deeper. I do think some will certainly return as teammates but that's merely wishful thinking.

That the PS3 port was a motivation for the reboot is speculation, absolutely. Still, when you're trying to rope in a million new players who will have never played ME1 (and will never) has to affect how much continuity you put in the game. If you created a paragon version and a renegade version of Garrus in ME2 but you're hoping to double your fans, then half would never see anything but the default renegade Garrus.

However, in ME2, all the fans will have the ability to play ME2. And the vast majority will have played ME2. Heck, ME2 didn't really sell more copies than ME1 and I'm betting they were 90% the same people (more speculation but it makes sense). There is a much stronger case for branching options because all your players will be able to play them.

But, again, both you and I are simply guessing. I'm giving you my logic for my optimism. Your pessimism is well grounded in past Bioware doubletalk. All we can do is see how things work out.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 02 février 2011 - 06:58 .


#114
Capeo

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JamieCOTC wrote...

Capeo wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ME2 was the story of Shepard building up the team who will then help him/her fordge alliances to fight the Reapers in ME3. The only other thing I can add to this discussion is that 1) I hope the game is not rebooted a third time and 2) ME3 will focus primarily on one character - Commander Shepard.


ME2 was the story of Shepard building a team to go after the Collectors.  That is all.  No alliances were forged and there was no indication that this team would be with you beyond the SM.

There also has to be some sort of reboot because BW will not make a game that can't stand alone.


I totally agree w/ you on the reboot, but the team will return in some capacity in ME3. All but confirmed.  Having Tali in your good graces will most likely help fordge alliances w/ the Quarians in ME3.  Just one example of gaining outside aid through the ME2 team. 


Your twitter link didn't work for me.  What was it? 

And I agree totally that living squad members will pop-up here and there as from ME1 to ME2 but, since any of them can die, they can't be integral to moving the plot forward.  So we'll see cameos and such.  For instance, getting the Quarians on your side, if that turns out to be a plot point, would happen whether Tali is alive or not.  Though, if she's alive, she'd likely be in that scene.

#115
CroGamer002

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^You can kill of some companions in DAO before you can talk with them and get to know them at all.

Why not same with ME3?

#116
rft

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Bassically if all the charricters in me2 die in the begining of the game then ME2 would have no point

#117
Whatever42

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Capeo wrote...

Your twitter link didn't work for me.  What was it? 

And I agree totally that living squad members will pop-up here and there as from ME1 to ME2 but, since any of them can die, they can't be integral to moving the plot forward.  So we'll see cameos and such.  For instance, getting the Quarians on your side, if that turns out to be a plot point, would happen whether Tali is alive or not.  Though, if she's alive, she'd likely be in that scene.


http://twitter.com/t...144357865066496

Yes. RT @SirUlrichVL @truffle so I take it if I only have zaeed, kasumi and joker alive. That shep is in for a rough ride in ME3? :)

So if Norman is answering yes to that question, it hints pretty heavily that ME2 crewmates are important in ME3. Cameos aren't important. Although, I do believe she commented in a follow up tweet (I'm not looking for it) that they wouldn't make it game breaking or anything.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 02 février 2011 - 07:10 .


#118
Capeo

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

If that's the level of impact you're talking about then I'm sure you won't be disappointed.  I think you'll get cameos from most all of the squad.


Well, I want something deeper than Conrad Verner cameos. Liara level cameos would be great, maybe even deeper. I do think some will certainly return as teammates but that's merely wishful thinking.

That the PS3 port was a motivation for the reboot is speculation, absolutely. Still, when you're trying to rope in a million new players who will have never played ME1 (and will never) has to affect how much continuity you put in the game. If you created a paragon version and a renegade version of Garrus in ME2 but you're hoping to double your fans, then half would never see anything but the default renegade Garrus.

However, in ME2, all the fans will have the ability to play ME2. And the vast majority will have played ME2. Heck, ME2 didn't really sell more copies than ME1 and I'm betting they were 90% the same people (more speculation but it makes sense). There is a much stronger case for branching options because all your players will be able to play them.

But, again, both you and I are simply guessing. I'm giving you my logic for my optimism. Your pessimism is well grounded in past Bioware doubletalk. All we can do is see how things work out.


I wouldn't say I'm being pessimistic, just realistic.  Liara is a good example.  They never would have made LotSB if Liara was a member of your squad and could die in ME2.  You simply cannot invest that amount of money in development for something that people may not ever see.  You also can't write important plot points around someone who can die in 2.  Luckily Liara can't so I hope that means we see a lot of her in ME3 (as a squadmate would be awsome).  ME3 has to be self contained in the sense of the main plot and your past decisions are only going to able to effect them so much. 

#119
Chewin

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ME1: Introduction

ME2: Building up your relationship with your crew

ME3: Conclusion

#120
JamieCOTC

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Your twitter link didn't work for me.  What was it? 

And I agree totally that living squad members will pop-up here and there as from ME1 to ME2 but, since any of them can die, they can't be integral to moving the plot forward.  So we'll see cameos and such.  For instance, getting the Quarians on your side, if that turns out to be a plot point, would happen whether Tali is alive or not.  Though, if she's alive, she'd likely be in that scene.


http://twitter.com/t...144357865066496

Yes. RT @SirUlrichVL @truffle so I take it if I only have zaeed, kasumi and joker alive. That shep is in for a rough ride in ME3? :)

So if Norman is answering yes to that question, it hints pretty heavily that ME2 crewmates are important in ME3. Cameos aren't important. Although, I do believe she commented in a follow up tweet (I'm not looking for it) that they wouldn't make it game breaking or anything.


Sorry about that, Capeo. My bad. 

Norman basically said you didn't have to have EVERY member alive to make it through ME3.  She wasn't any more specific though. 

#121
Whatever42

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Capeo wrote...

I wouldn't say I'm being pessimistic, just realistic.  Liara is a good example.  They never would have made LotSB if Liara was a member of your squad and could die in ME2.  You simply cannot invest that amount of money in development for something that people may not ever see.  You also can't write important plot points around someone who can die in 2.  Luckily Liara can't so I hope that means we see a lot of her in ME3 (as a squadmate would be awsome).  ME3 has to be self contained in the sense of the main plot and your past decisions are only going to able to effect them so much. 


Totally agree that they can only go so far. If there is a 50/50 choice then you're not going to put extraordinary development into both choices. Hence, we will get more emails.

The crew is a little different.

First, for most players, most crew will live. I bet 80-90% of player will have any one crewmate alive.

Second, default settings will probably have certain crew members alive, allowing more players to see them, raising that percentage.

Third, in both ME1 and ME2, they developed crew that you never had to recruit. They developed dialogue trees that many people never followed. Most players played maleshep but ladyshep still had 3 LIs.  Once the engine and models are done, I don't think scripting the dialogue and recording some extra lines is all that expensive. Still, much of what Bioware develops is for replay value or to offer something to people that wouldn't otherwise play. They will certainly develop content that 20% of their fans might not see in a playthrough.

Actually, you make an excellent point about LotSB. Developing a squadmate with the dialogue tree and some banter is likely cheaper than buidling a cameo around a surrounding character. If I have a crewmate in ME1 dead and he/she would return in ME3 then I'm not missing out on any missions. If that character returns in the center of a cameo mision then there is either a placeholder (Wreave) or I miss out on the mission. Since building so many placeholders would be unrealistic, it would mean most of the cameos are trivial, which Bioware KNOWS would outrage their fans for most characters. They said as much with LotSB.

So maybe its a combo. Potential LIs come back as squadies (we would want significant time with them), others have a cameo with a placeholder, and maybe some are dead/trivial (Mordin might be too old to venture out anymore).

Yeah, more speculation. My rambling is only meant to highlight that there is as much of an argument to supposing they will return in a significant fashion than to assume they won't.

#122
MajesticJazz

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Chewin3 wrote...

ME1: Introduction
ME2: Building up your relationship with your crew
ME3: Conclusion


I see your point but the whole concept of ME2 being about building your relationship with your crew is really irrelevant. If ME2's crew was the EXACT same as ME1's crew, then your point would hold valid. In that situation, we would be able to continue our relationships and learning of Ashley/Kaiden, Wrex, Liara, Tali, Garrus, Navigator Pressly, Engineer Adams etc....

HOWEVER, ME2 gives us an entirely new crew minus Joker, Chakwas, Tali, and Garrus. In a lot of ways, ME2 kinda brings things back to step 1 all over again.

I think this has a lot to do with Bioware so content on making ME2 a great stand alone game and entry point for those who didn't play ME1 and the results show. ME2 is a GREAT stand a lone game and a GREAT entry point to the series heading into ME2. But is is POOR in terms of the continuity from ME1.

#123
Capeo

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I wouldn't say I'm being pessimistic, just realistic.  Liara is a good example.  They never would have made LotSB if Liara was a member of your squad and could die in ME2.  You simply cannot invest that amount of money in development for something that people may not ever see.  You also can't write important plot points around someone who can die in 2.  Luckily Liara can't so I hope that means we see a lot of her in ME3 (as a squadmate would be awsome).  ME3 has to be self contained in the sense of the main plot and your past decisions are only going to able to effect them so much. 


Totally agree that they can only go so far. If there is a 50/50 choice then you're not going to put extraordinary development into both choices. Hence, we will get more emails.

The crew is a little different.

First, for most players, most crew will live. I bet 80-90% of player will have any one crewmate alive.

Second, default settings will probably have certain crew members alive, allowing more players to see them, raising that percentage.

Third, in both ME1 and ME2, they developed crew that you never had to recruit. They developed dialogue trees that many people never followed. Most players played maleshep but ladyshep still had 3 LIs.  Once the engine and models are done, I don't think scripting the dialogue and recording some extra lines is all that expensive. Still, much of what Bioware develops is for replay value or to offer something to people that wouldn't otherwise play. They will certainly develop content that 20% of their fans might not see in a playthrough.

Actually, you make an excellent point about LotSB. Developing a squadmate with the dialogue tree and some banter is likely cheaper than buidling a cameo around a surrounding character. If I have a crewmate in ME1 dead and he/she would return in ME3 then I'm not missing out on any missions. If that character returns in the center of a cameo mision then there is either a placeholder (Wreave) or I miss out on the mission. Since building so many placeholders would be unrealistic, it would mean most of the cameos are trivial, which Bioware KNOWS would outrage their fans for most characters. They said as much with LotSB.

So maybe its a combo. Potential LIs come back as squadies (we would want significant time with them), others have a cameo with a placeholder, and maybe some are dead/trivial (Mordin might be too old to venture out anymore).

Yeah, more speculation. My rambling is only meant to highlight that there is as much of an argument to supposing they will return in a significant fashion than to assume they won't.


I think the only difference in what we're saying is what we each think "significant" means in terms of the plot.  By significant I mean that character has to be there to move the plot forward.  Take the Tali/Quarnarian Fleet example from earlier.  This all assumes getting the Quarnarian Fleet on your side as a plot point BTW.  I don't see keeping Tali on your squad from ME2 as significant.  Significant would be that, if she died in ME2, then you are unable to get the Quarnarian Fleet to join your cause.  Significant means the plot couldn't advance without that character.  Since that can't happen (that would be gamebreaking) there has to be a stand-in or alternate way to get the plot moving which, by extension, really makes Tali's living or dying insignificant in the scope of the plot.  To borrow your wording, it would be trivial.

Granted, that whole plot thread is just an example.  I'm just clarifying what I mean when I say they can't make anything huge revolve around a character that could have died in ME2.  Hence the significance of who lived or died in ME2 is muted.  Will there be side missions galore?  I'm sure there will be.  Could they hinge on who lived or died in ME2?  Sure could.  Can the main plot?  No.  Hence questioning the reasoning of all the squad gathering, at the expense of moving the plot forward in ME2, as pointless.

My ideal scenerio for ME3 would be I start with who I had left and get right to the plot.  The game has to stand alone though.  Hence, her saying being left with almost nobody from your squad wouldn't be gamebreaking.  That means there's some recruiting to be done.  Hopefully it's optional. 

EDITED: for horrific grammar.    

Modifié par Capeo, 02 février 2011 - 07:58 .


#124
Capeo

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Mesina2 wrote...

^You can kill of some companions in DAO before you can talk with them and get to know them at all.
Why not same with ME3?


I'm not saying you can't.  But let's look at DAO.  Kill Wynne during the Mage's Circle quest?  You still get the Mage's Circle on your side by the end of it.  And that follows for the entire main quest.  I'm referring specifically to characters' effect on the main plot.

#125
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MajesticJazz wrote...
I think this has a lot to do with Bioware so content on making ME2 a great stand alone game and entry point for those who didn't play ME1 and the results show. ME2 is a GREAT stand a lone game and a GREAT entry point to the series heading into ME2. But is is POOR in terms of the continuity from ME1.

This has been said many times. And I still agree.