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How canon applies to Mass effect.


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#26
mopotter

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JKoopman wrote...

Why is this something people are even arguing? Why does there need to be a canonical Shepard for some (shall we say, unimaginative) people? Can they just not handle that ZOMG in some people's universes Shepard is a girl and romances dudes and that kinda makes their Shepard gay in some ill-conceived, vaguely homophobic, cross-dimensional sort of way? What exactly is the problem here?

There's a reason why the novels never go into much detail on Shepard.


My take, is he's bored.  Waiting for the next game nothing new to talk about so brings up something like this again.  Or just likes to argue with people which is usually a waste of time.  

#27
InvincibleHero

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didymos1120 wrote...

You don't seem to understand that dictionaries DO NOT define a language. They never have and they never will.  All they can do is define some of the words in a language, and then only approximately and partially.  Ever-changing usage is what truly defines a language and always has and always will, the ceasless lamentatations of prescriptivists about what is "proper" notwithstanding.

Think about it:  established dictionaries are a relatively recent phenomenon.  If we follow your logic, no word in any language was "proper" until it got an entry in an established dictionary (BTW, what criteria qualify any given dictionary as "established"?) and no word in any language which currently lacks an established dictionary is "proper". That is just silly.


So you believe people can make up words and change what they want. Dictionaries are to codify definitions of words so there is uniformity. So when someone says apple another can understand what they said. It does function as a gatekeeper. So for the 40+ years people have repurposed canon the standard dictionaries have not accepted that. There are other words that apply like continuity so seizing another word doesn't automatically mean it will be accepted.

Canon exists and has 8 defintions accepted over time, but the one you want just isn't there.  I have no problems with it per se, but then what is the accepted defintion of canon if it is not standardized? Is it wikipedia's? It seems from your vehemence that yours is the only accpetable one because you said I didn't know what canon was based on your interpretation, is it mine, or anyone can just pick and choose what they want because it is not in an established dictionary?

A dictionary may not have all the words at all times but can you truly believe you know more words than that dictionary? It also has all tenses of verbs and all forms of language structure. In fact you can get a French to English dictionary and converse with some French speaker albeit very awkwardly. If that isn't language i satnd corrected. You have to have some accepted standard for words and definitions and dictionaries have worked quite well for hundreds of years. This in not some area where democratizing it works well.

Recent? Merriam-webster's in 1806 http://www.merriam-w...m/info/noah.htm and wikipedia says another published in 1755. http://en.wikipedia....nglish_Language

#28
JamieCOTC

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BW has stated time and again, there is NO canon Shepard. There is, however, a default (or quickplay) Shepard of both sexes. Default or quickplay Shepard is Earthborn/Sole Survivor.

Sheploo is for marketing purposes, kind of like Mikey Mouse. Marketing can hardly be considered canon either. Haven't you ever seen a trailer for a movie that depicted a scene that was not in the movie? Even if not, trailers are often misleading, including the ones made by BW as they must tell a story and sell the product at the same time.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 25 janvier 2011 - 04:54 .


#29
AdmiralCheez

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Ah, so apparently Shepard's actually a Dutch underwear model. Good to know!

#30
Guest_AwesomeName_*

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One of the devs said this about marketing shep:

"Cannonical" is really a bad word for it. Cannonical implies that "this
is the way it really happened." The way it really happened was the way you
played it - a lot of trouble has gone into making sure the
supplementary stuff (novels, comics, etc) doesn't conflict with any
possible playthrough.

A better term would be "default." Default
Shepard made whatever choices in the first game that make it easiest to
follow the plot if you didn't play ME1. So, essentially, default Shepard
didn't run around meeting a lot of people in the first game whose
previous interactions we'd have to explain in an awkward fashion in ME2
(as in, Shepard should know who they are but the player won't) and
picked a lot of default dialog options.

SOURCE


#31
InvincibleHero

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Mezzil wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Mezzil wrote...

Stop annoying people because you love that ugly Sheploo guy.

And here's a Bioware quote on this topic.

Chris Priestly wrote...

Correct. There is NO canon Shepard. It is up to the individual players to create their own Shepards.



Posted Image


http://social.biowar...index/2507120/1


Heh never use the default look myself. Chris is online marketing in the credits. Not a writer/creator. They are the ones that could set canon or not.

Also the my Shepard is canon is not correct that so many state on the boards.


Ok but writer Patrick Weekes says the same thing-
"We do not have a Canonical Shepard. "
http://meforums.biow...forum=144&sp=30


Cool thanks for digging that up. he should have stopped at the first sentence.

I have to disagree slightly. Lidda is a canon 3rd edition D&D character. She was used in some of the novels and is entirely defined down to skill points and stats. There is no reinterpreting her. You can take her name and stats, but anything you do with the character will not affect her status in the real D&D setting.

He is comparing Shepard with an invalid comparison and creating a tag iconic character. Shepard is simply a game avatar nothing more. They have defined some, but not all attributes. However, like Lidda in D&D the writers have determined the path of the character and what you do has little effect. No matter your path Saren is killed and the collectors beaten. The little choices they allow in your save games still don't affect what they see as the default happening. You don't own your shepard but rent him/her for the length of the game. you cannot even name them and are stuck with the Shepard tag. Once they did that they basically know what the character is and they are going with a cop-out just for "advertising purposes".

Really lots of games sell well without an "iconic" character selling it. Box art rarely shows the main character anyway. Female leads have sold many games as well. They determined male Shep is default , but some people take it too seriously so they come up with a painful tortured way to explain it all.

#32
SithLordExarKun

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Theres no canon in the ME universe, deal with it seriously.

#33
Guest_AwesomeName_*

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SithLordExarKun wrote...

Theres no canon in the ME universe, deal with it seriously.


Well there is in terms of certain backstory* - it's just that there's no canon Shepard (or rather your Shepard is only canon for you) as the devs have said...

*although I don't quite consider Retribution canon, since it conflicts with my playthrough :P

#34
InvincibleHero

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JKoopman wrote...

Why is this something people are even arguing? Why does there need to be a canonical Shepard for some (shall we say, unimaginative) people? Can they just not handle that ZOMG in some people's universes Shepard is a girl and romances dudes and that kinda makes their Shepard gay in some ill-conceived, vaguely homophobic, cross-dimensional sort of way? What exactly is the problem here?

There's a reason why the novels never go into much detail on Shepard.


 Pure marketing gimmick and people buy that iconic Shepard is not canon Shepard. It wouldn't be an issue if they used both fem shep and "iconic" Shep to market. They are having their cake and eating it. It is a lack of imagination to accept that explanation. They can market a game without using the lead if they wanted to preserve no canonicity (probably not a word). Plenty of game have such as Baldur's Gate. Note they let everyone think this male Sheploo as they say here  is Commander Shepard on game boxes and gameplay video. Would anyone viewing that get the idea hey I can be a female Shepard. Highly unlikely. They don't promote the option so they did choose a canon Shep after all.

I play Fem Sheps so your insults lack any teeth. You really should read a few posts before jumping to conclusions. Don't worry I forgive your ignorance. 

The only way the story can make sense is if 10,000 years after humanity was destroyed by the reapers another newly spacefaring race comes upon a pod, alliance beacon, or some such  that tells Shepard's story. This explains the film grain feel to make it like footage with some glitched playback. It however, does not explain how everyone else in the story has gender assigned to them.

It is a problem inherent to them picking name and giving an important rank/role to players straight out of the box. You don't so much write Shepard's story as just play through their canon anyway. They chose alll the back ground and gave you the choice of male/female, class, and a few backgrounds. Not much choice.

#35
InvincibleHero

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JamieCOTC wrote...

BW has stated time and again, there is NO canon Shepard. There is, however, a default (or quickplay) Shepard of both sexes. Default or quickplay Shepard is Earthborn/Sole Survivor.

Sheploo is for marketing purposes, kind of like Mikey Mouse. Marketing can hardly be considered canon either. Haven't you ever seen a trailer for a movie that depicted a scene that was not in the movie? Even if not, trailers are often misleading, including the ones made by BW as they must tell a story and sell the product at the same time.


Yet I bet if I made a game with a male Colonel Sheperd that was a space RPG/FPS they would sue my pants off. So really any game with Commander Shepard is fair game if they didn't define it. Since, it is only advertising there is no real property that is Commander Shepard.

Wrong Sheploo is Commander Shepard that is the IP right there. Doesn't matter how they try to explain it away.

#36
SSV Enterprise

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So, canonically, Saren's head is larger than Shepard himself?

Promotional art is never a source of canon, and that includes game boxes.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:27 .


#37
Guest_Mezzil_*

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Bioware isn't even consistent at depicting Shepard. There are some offical ME1 and ME2 pictures from Bioware with female Shepard in them. There is offical Bioware ME1 PC combat videos with female Shepard.



Often Shepard is shown making choices that can't even happen canonically together such as the trailer showing Ashley dying, but then Shepard has sex with her. Later for an ME2 video, Bioware showed Liara as the one to show up in the ME2 intro.

#38
Chuvvy

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Mezzil wrote...

Stop annoying people because you love that ugly Sheploo guy.

And here's a Bioware quote on this topic.

Chris Priestly wrote...

Correct. There is NO canon Shepard. It is up to the individual players to create their own Shepards.



Posted Image


http://social.biowar...index/2507120/1


*Except when applies to sexual prefference.

#39
AdmiralCheez

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Slidell505 wrote...

*Except when applies to sexual prefference.

**Thanks to loudmouthed homophobes who think lesbians and aliens are okay, but man-on-man is wrong.

*promises not to troll this sort of thing again*

#40
SithLordExarKun

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Wrong Sheploo is Commander Shepard that is the IP right there. Doesn't matter how they try to explain it away.

Gee i wonder, whose word is more credible, some random couch potato like yourself or the devs that built the game and concept?

#41
Joram Talid

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admiral cheez- the official spokesperson for man-on-man action since me1.

#42
Mecha Tengu

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We all KNOW male shep is canon



Woo says otherwise because if not it would be bad publicity to alienate a community's female gamers



then again I don't think there is any justification for trying to establish canon in an open ended, customized RPG

#43
didymos1120

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InvincibleHero wrote...
Wrong Sheploo is Commander Shepard that is the IP right there. Doesn't matter how they try to explain it away.


Oh, so if there's a trailer or commercial with Sheploo in it, it's canon, even if the actual events in the game don't happen that way, or don't happen at all?

So is this is "canon" then, or does the perma-helmet make it magically not count?



I mean, it's clearly marketing material and it's using the "Sheploo" voice and it also includes a shot of the game box, complete with Sheploo cover art, so it must count right?

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:59 .


#44
didymos1120

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Mecha Tengu wrote...

We all KNOW male shep is canon


No we don't. 

Woo says otherwise because if not it would be bad publicity to alienate a community's female gamers


Woo isn't the only Biowarian to say otherwise (in fact, he wasn't even quoted in this thread). You can invent all the reasons you like for why what they've said doesn't really count, but that doesn't change the facts.

Modifié par didymos1120, 26 janvier 2011 - 05:57 .


#45
Mecha Tengu

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didymos1120 wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

We all KNOW male shep is canon


No we don't. 

Woo says otherwise because if not it would be bad publicity to alienate a community's female gamers


Woo isn't the only Biowarian to say otherwise. You can invent all the reasons you like for why what they've said doesn't really count, but that doesn't change the facts.



all marketing done with shepard is male
default everything is male

The first time I ever realized that you could be female in this game was after I bought the game. I didnt really follow dev comments

I'm not really inventing these reasons. It's bloody common sense where this is all going, and why "canonicity" is such an edgy topic. The easiest solution of course is to say there is no canon

#46
InvincibleHero

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AwesomeName wrote...

One of the devs said this about marketing shep:

"Cannonical" is really a bad word for it. Cannonical implies that "this
is the way it really happened." The way it really happened was the way you
played it - a lot of trouble has gone into making sure the
supplementary stuff (novels, comics, etc) doesn't conflict with any
possible playthrough.

A better term would be "default." Default
Shepard made whatever choices in the first game that make it easiest to
follow the plot if you didn't play ME1. So, essentially, default Shepard
didn't run around meeting a lot of people in the first game whose
previous interactions we'd have to explain in an awkward fashion in ME2
(as in, Shepard should know who they are but the player won't) and
picked a lot of default dialog options.

SOURCE


So what is the real difference between canon and default? Two sides of the same coin IMO. The ME Universe has been stamped with the male Shepard marketing. That is the brand.

#47
JKoopman

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Mecha Tengu wrote...

We all KNOW male shep is canon

Woo says otherwise because if not it would be bad publicity to alienate a community's female gamers

then again I don't think there is any justification for trying to establish canon in an open ended, customized RPG


How do we KNOW that male Shepard is "canon"? The only thing we KNOW is that, according to BioWare, there is no canon Shepard. Jebus people, how can you argue with that?

"But male Shepard is used in all the advertising!" I hear you say. It's advertising! They have to use someone. Should they create some androgynous, gender-neutral amalgam Shepard so that neither side feels left out?

BioWare says THERE IS NO CANON SHEPARD. THERE IS ONLY AN ICONIC SHEPARD USED FOR MARKETING PURPOSES. End of story. There's no point arguing it.

#48
Mecha Tengu

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JKoopman wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

We all KNOW male shep is canon

Woo says otherwise because if not it would be bad publicity to alienate a community's female gamers

then again I don't think there is any justification for trying to establish canon in an open ended, customized RPG


How do we KNOW that male Shepard is "canon"? The only thing we KNOW is that, according to BioWare, there is no canon Shepard. Jebus people, how can you argue with that?

"But male Shepard is used in all the advertising!" I hear you say. It's advertising! They have to use someone. Should they create some androgynous, gender-neutral amalgam Shepard so that neither side feels left out?

BioWare says THERE IS NO CANON SHEPARD. THERE IS ONLY AN ICONIC SHEPARD USED FOR MARKETING PURPOSES. End of story. There's no point arguing it.


then why not have some trailers market with femshep in them

#49
InvincibleHero

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SithLordExarKun wrote...

Theres no canon in the ME universe, deal with it seriously.


So there is no codex. There are no turians, asari, or krogans in the mass effect universe. Gotcha. Posted Image

#50
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There's some combat vidoes on the Mass Effect website with FemShep:
http://www.masseffec...lery/index.html

Also watch the Mass Effect Launch trailer. Is it canon that Shepard sleeps with zombie Ashley?