29 réponses à ce sujet

[JJDrakken]

Obviously if you have high enough strength, anyone can wield a 2H Weapon(or if your arcane warrior, Spellpower)

My Question is, can you still use rogue attacks, Heartseeker or Armor piercing one(can't recall it's name atm)


Thanks for responses.


JJ

[JJDrakken]

Surprised no one knows this, Guess I'll go test it out.



JJ

[Elhanan]

Try searching for past threads; some here have played 2H Rogues and posted info. Good luck!

[Doriath]

The only talents that are restricted by which weapon you wield are actual weapon talents. So yes, you should be able to use rogue talents regardless of your weapon choice.

Modifié par chrisnabal, 24 janvier 2011 - 06:18 .

[Dhraiauvessillus]

You would only be able to use your none blade based talents. The others, like the two handed ones you would not be able to use. So you would end up with some talents not using two weapons and the none blade ones. it would not be worth it.

With a Mage you can have  two handed weapons but it does not really work because they keep having to put their sword, axe or maul away to cast some spells.

You are better sticking with duel wielding with rogues.

Modifié par Dhraiauvessillus, 29 janvier 2011 - 11:59 .

[Yrkoon]

JJDrakken wrote...

Obviously if you have high enough strength, anyone can wield a 2H Weapon(or if your arcane warrior, Spellpower)

My Question is, can you still use rogue attacks, Heartseeker or Armor piercing one(can't recall it's name atm)


Thanks for responses.


JJ

Yes.  You can.   But the problem with 2-h rogues  (3 problems, actually) is that:
 
1)  class-defining Rogue abilities  such as backstabbing  are done via auto-attacks.   But anyone  familiar with 2-handers knows that sending your 2-hander out to auto-attack is a very sub-optimal thing to do.  2-handers shine when you spam 2-h talents - which you can't backstab with.

2) Rogue  talents require putting points into things like Dexterity.  And sometimes you have to put A LOT of points into Dexterity  ( Weakpoints requires 46 Dex.  Flicker requires 52 dex!)  If you're doing the math, that's  tons of points that won't be going into  Strength, which is what makes 2-handers good.

3) Redundancy.  Rogues are great  because of their ability to backstab,  while 2-handers are great because   of their  ability to generate  criticals  on command  (Mighty Blow, Critical Strike, Sweeping Strike)  But what is a Backstab?  It's a critical hit.    Why do you need 2 of the same thing, when you could, instead, make your 2-hander a warrior and reap the benefits of all the Awesome Warrior Talents, for example?  Or make your rogue a dual-wielder and benefit from really *fast* backstabs?


In short,  This build  suffers from  what we in the business  call a 'lack of Synergy'.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:36 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I think the real problem is when you get to levels past 20. Eventually you will have to dip into the weapon pools, and many of the choices you make there will give you no real benefit.



Strength isn't that bad an issue. All you really need is enough to meet item requirements. If you have lethality you can substitute cunning for damage.

[shatteredstar56]

I'm kind of confused by the question, but you can't use a Two Handed weapon and use any talents that need Dual Weapons. I think you can use sustained talents, without the weapons your character is based on, as long as you meet requirements (example would be that Leliana uses her Bard talents while handling a sword and shield.)

[Elhanan]

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I'm kind of confused by the question, but you can't use a Two Handed weapon and use any talents that need Dual Weapons. I think you can use sustained talents, without the weapons your character is based on, as long as you meet requirements (example would be that Leliana uses her Bard talents while handling a sword and shield.)

Correct; no weapon talent usage is available. However, some have found that the Rogue skills, backstabs, and auto-attacks are enough.

[Bahlgan]

Just gonna be short on this one. Never thought it orthodox for a rogue to use two handed weapons ever...... Unless they were either katanas or war staves... Alas they do not exist in Ferelden.

[Elhanan]

Bahlgan wrote...

Just gonna be short on this one. Never thought it orthodox for a rogue to use two handed weapons ever...... Unless they were either katanas or war staves... Alas they do not exist in Ferelden.

I understand, except I enjoy playing an unorthodox Rogue myself using high STR to wear heavy or massive armor. While it is the slow auto-attack routines that have kept me from using a 2H weapon thus far, perhaps I should give it a test to see what my usual build can do with a greatsword or axe (still not fond of the mauls).

I guess I just do not simply desire to play the same high DEX and/or Cunning, light armored Rogue as everyone else.

[Stahlbart]

Maybe bringing two mages up for double haste could at least upgrade the auto attacks.



Some time I'll give that a try... but for now I have at least 5 playthroughs planned, so this could take a while

[Elhanan]

I have one PC that would be great for this test: Bronto; my DC thug Warden that was originally built to test the Steal fix.

As Yrkoon indicates, the main problems are slow auto-attack speed, 2H weapons gain reduced benefits from DEX, and no weapon talents.

Weapon speed might be less of a problem with Swift Salve, Haste, and like temp fixes. But for me, this is the key issue.

I am already used to higher STR Rogues, so no surprises there.

Talent loss means I need to explore remaining Rogue Talents to see what will improve 2H usage. My guess is that both Assassin and Duelist specs will helpful, as well as investing more in the non-weapon Talents (already mourning the loss of Momentum).

Helpful tips and suggestions are welcome!

[angry_peon]

What you can do, is using the console to give you acces to all fighter talents. (base, two handed and sword and shield).

Of course cheating stays cheating, but when there is no mod to give a rogue two hand talents...

[Stahlbart]

Yea, but I think that just spoils the fun of having a not-so-perfect build/planning it.

If you don't play solo and have the right tactics the game IS easy most of the time. Even on nightmare. Having a super heavy hitter that benefits from both, rogue and warrior talents would just be too much in my eyes.



BTT: I can only think of picking all the rogue talents and beeing assassin/duellist. Attacking in stealth and backstab as often as possible. And beeing supported by eg. two mages to buff the PC.

[angry_peon]

I think a well skilled 2 weapon rogue would still be far superior (2 hand rogue would need to invest considerable amounts of attribute points in strenght, cunning and dex, instead of only dex and cunning). It has a much better synergy with rogue stats and his other talents. It's just that a rogue would have something to do, and can deal some damage while not back-stabbing, instead just watching auto attack.

[TheBigMatt90]

Yes we *already* know what the best build for rogues is, and of course its not using a two-hander. You dont seem to understand that a) people like a challenge in their games, because they think the game is too easy, or after a playthrough of all races you need to mix it up or the game becomes stale.

I was planning on making a rediculous backstabber bonus rogue in Awakening with Vigilance and 200% backstab damage cap, with 150% Player backstab damage cap. The only problem with the build is that I cant decidehow much cun to get. It will be 48 str for vigilance, but i dont need to put that many points in (10 from Legion Scout spec, gear etc), 52 Dex, and then I dont know whether or not to pump str or get Cun up for more backstab damage. Its only for fun when using Flicker really, will (read:should) give amazing damage though. Any suggestions? Sorry for the derail btw, but its kinda relevant

[Elhanan]

My usual STR Rogue build is STR 38-42, Dex max, Cunning 30, Will 20-30, if that helps.

[Bahlgan]

Elhanan wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

Just gonna be short on this one. Never thought it orthodox for a rogue to use two handed weapons ever...... Unless they were either katanas or war staves... Alas they do not exist in Ferelden.

I understand, except I enjoy playing an unorthodox Rogue myself using high STR to wear heavy or massive armor. While it is the slow auto-attack routines that have kept me from using a 2H weapon thus far, perhaps I should give it a test to see what my usual build can do with a greatsword or axe (still not fond of the mauls).

I guess I just do not simply desire to play the same high DEX and/or Cunning, light armored Rogue as everyone else.

Armor is different however, for it has been sanctioned by Bioware in the means of the Legionnaire Scout class. Of course high strength to wield heavy or massive armor doesn't stop a rogue from donning a two hander either. Suppose there is no impractical use of the style after all really, save that Only rogue skills are available with them. Won't deny using Heartseeker sounds extreme, but it just doesn't fit the Rogue archetype - Rogues are meant to be fast, and wielding something like this to me turns him into a warrior.

Yes we *already* know what the best build for rogues is, and of course its not using a two-hander. You dont seem to understand that a) people like a challenge in their games, because they think the game is too easy, or after a playthrough of all races you need to mix it up or the game becomes stale. 

I respect your taste in something new, but that's all it is- a crave for a different build; I would not be under the impression that the first reason you listed has much to do with their interests.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 01 février 2011 - 05:38 .

[TheBigMatt90]

Thats all well and good, as everyone has their own opinion, but that is all you can add to my entire post?



@Elhanan; kinda, but Dex doesnt help with two hander damage, and as im going for max backstab damage should i get Str to about 42>? (or whatever it is to wield Vigilance) and Dex to about 60/70 then pump Cun? or 30 Cun, More str and 60/70 Dex?

[Yrkoon]

TheBigMatt90 wrote...

Thats all well and good, as everyone has their own opinion, but that is all you can add to my entire post?

@Elhanan; kinda, but Dex doesnt help with two hander damage, and as im going for max backstab damage should i get Str to about 42>? (or whatever it is to wield Vigilance) and Dex to about 60/70 then pump Cun? or 30 Cun, More str and 60/70 Dex?

Max Backstab Damage?   Obviously yes.  You'll want to pump Strength as high as possible  (or Cunning if you're going to rely on lethality),  And you'll probably want to forget about Dexterity  outright.  two-handers don't benefit from dex beyond defense.  And   Dex  points past the minimum needed for talents contribues exactly nothing  to their backstab damage.

See, this is where the discussion eventually forks to:  "should I try to make my character well rounded?  [Elhanan's Build] or should I focus on one thing [backstab damage]?  The answer will always be: to each his own.    But just a note:  'well rounded' rules out 'Max backstab damage' and vice versa.  you can't have both.  There ain't enough points in the game for both.


I've done one Rogue 2-hander playthough.  I buit him  almost exactly how I build a typical   2-hander warrior.  Strength all the way, with just enough dex to get the rogue talents I needed to help in my backstabs.  Then I got Vigillence and filled it with 3 intensifying runes.  I think with gear and all, my  +backstab/critical damage was +140% or some such.  And my backstabs were doing 200-300 damage or more.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 février 2011 - 10:06 .

[Bahlgan]

TheBigMatt90 wrote...

Thats all well and good, as everyone has their own opinion, but that is all you can add to my entire post?
?

Most of your post is feasible as far as I am concerned. If there was perhaps one more thing I would have to ask it would be: How in the world do you backstab with a two hander in the same manner as with a dagger? Does the backstab not discriminate weapon styles as far as the programming is concerned? If it does discriminate, I see no point to equip the two hander due to eliminating flank advantages as a rogue.

[DWSmiley]

Bahlgan wrote...

How in the world do you backstab with a two hander

Well, first you stealth up behind the mark in your massive armor, clankity-clank, and then you, um... 

[Bahlgan]

DWSmiley wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

How in the world do you backstab with a two hander

Well, first you stealth up behind the mark in your massive armor, clankity-clank, and then you, um... 

I appreciate the emoticon by the way, but you know what I am talking about. The practical backstab is done with a one handed weapon. Unless the programming actually allows two handed weapons to backstab. If that's the case, then I am quite shocked... But whatever, more power to the two-handed rogues. 

[Yrkoon]

Conceptually speaking, you shouldn't be able to backstab with a massive 2-handed maul, true. But the Dragon Age origins programming being what it is, you can. The mechanics are exactly the same. simply get behind your target, and hit them in the black-outlined flank zone, just as you would with a dagger, and boom... there's your backstab... complete with the same mathamical damage bonusses that an using any other melee  weapon provides

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 février 2011 - 11:32 .