64 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

It apparently was supposed to allow for two things:

• It would allow the Normandy to safely traverse the Omega-4 Relay, whereas it was postulated that ships attempting to travel through the relay without an IFF would be deposited outside of a "safe zone" where they would be destroyed by the exploding stars and blackholes that riddle the galactic core.
• Like the name suggests, it would designate the Normandy as a friendly vessel and therefor any Collector defenses that lay in wait on the other side would let them pass unmolested, as it had also been speculated that the reason no ship ever returned through the Omega-4 Relay was because the Collectors either detained or destroyed them as soon as they arrived.

However, neither of those is true from what the game shows us. We emerge through the Omega-4 Relay inside the massive debris field that marks the remains of every other ship that's attempted to traverse the relay, meaning that the IFF doesn't change where the relay sends you as all those other ships were dumped in the exact same spot, and upon exiting the relay the Normandy is immediately attacked by the Collector's automated Oculi, so neither does the IFF allow the Normandy to bypass the Collector defenses.

So what good was it? Why did we even NEED the Reaper IFF? It seems like acompletely useless plot device, as we could've jumped through the Omega-4 Relay without it and presumably ended up with the exact same outcome.

Modifié par JKoopman, 24 janvier 2011 - 07:02 .

[sth128]

For that matter, what good was the Illusive Man? He just sent Shepard blindly through the relay without so much as sending a probe first.



The first time Normandy saw the Collector we realized they have better weapons and better ships. So what does TIM do? He tells Shepard to collect a bunch of pokemons. What's Grunt gonna do if they go through the relay and 5 collector battle cruisers are sitting there, yell at them?



And why didn't TIM upgrade Normandy 2 before handing it to Shepard? Obviously he's got the $$$ and the intel for these upgrades. Hell, he didn't even buy some good food or plasma coils for them.



Even the Shadow Broker sent probes. TIM sucks.

[LorDC]

Remark on the debris field is right. But most probably someone just screwed up at cinematic department. I can pull up an excuse out of my ass that ships without IFF were just sent into some kind of mine field nearby and debris just floated around from there.
Oculus? Well they may not be as automatic as they seem. Or Collectors can add two and two and understand that their Cruiser is at home and they don't expect any visitors so ship that just passed through the relay is hostile despite the fact that it produces friendly signature.

PS It just amazes me how people when encountering conflicts like this tend to start ranting(maybe a little harsh word but I can't think of any other) "the whole plot doesn't make sense" when it is so much easier to just dismiss that little detail.

Modifié par LorDC, 24 janvier 2011 - 07:36 .

[Silmane]

JK, this has always bugged me, too. Instead of getting the IFF from the Reaper, Legion could've compromised the mission by being swarmed by Husks and destroying the core out of desperation. Shepard is almost to the core and Legion comes through a door, walking backwards, guns blazing and tells Shepard they have to escape immediately. Wearing a N7 plate and being able to speak as a Geth startles the Commander and you have the option of taking him down or agreeing and running to the Normandy.



The Illusive Man gets a report of a Collector Ship hitting another colony, but it's a trap and while saving the colony, the Collectors board the Normandy and take your crew. Shepard can either save them immediately or risk losing them with more missions. Shepard puts it all on the line and enters the Omega-4 Relay and you enter the cinematic just like in the game.



...but that's just me.

[JrayM16]

1. The Normandy only really went into the debris fields after those probe things started chasing it.



2. Collectors could've run a check on the Normandy itself. A simple scan would clearly indicate that it wasn't a Reaper or Collector ship, not to mention the fact that the IFF was for a REAPER and not a Collector ship. SInce Harbinger was in charge, that would've told him something was up.

[JKoopman]

JrayM16 wrote...

1. The Normandy only really went into the debris fields after those probe things started chasing it.

2. Collectors could've run a check on the Normandy itself. A simple scan would clearly indicate that it wasn't a Reaper or Collector ship, not to mention the fact that the IFF was for a REAPER and not a Collector ship. SInce Harbinger was in charge, that would've told him something was up.

1. Incorrect. Immediately upon exiting the relay, Joker has to make an emergency maneuver to avoid a large piece of debris directly ahead of the Normandy. The Normandy then flies above the debris field until the Occuli, hiding in the debris field, engage them and they're forced to flee into the field for cover. You can view the whole scene here.

2. Which again begs the question of why exactly the Reaper IFF was necessary to safely navigate the relay?

Modifié par JKoopman, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:22 .

[Spartas Husky]

JKoopman wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

2. Which again begs the question of why exactly the Reaper IFF was necessary to safely navigate the relay?

EDI explains it, others explain, I explain and you still ask.

The Galaxy's core is full of overly big suns and black holes. Normal mass relay transit protocols have drift. We saw it in ME1 and in ME2 of several thousands of kilometers... could be dozens of thousands, could be just 1 klick.

Since most relays are situated outside systems, it doesn't matter.

In prespective. YOu have a football field and your on the benches. Your goal is to hit the "green" zone. Very easy to do even with winds or w/e

In the galactic core, a small miscalculation means you end up in a black hole's gravitational pull, or near a giant sun.

All the IFF did is found a "safe zone" not affected by either suns or black holes, a zone where your ship can arrive safely outside natural forces that may harm it. Doubt is design to keep track of floating debree.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .

[volus4life]

maybe the humans didn't quite optimize or know full usage of the IFF, and missed some variables where it could help designate a safer destination. it is technology way higher level than what cerberus was used to.



but most likely, bioware just wanted to show off joker's piloting skills and add a little suspense.

[JrayM16]

JKoopman wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

1. The Normandy only really went into the debris fields after those probe things started chasing it.

2. Collectors could've run a check on the Normandy itself. A simple scan would clearly indicate that it wasn't a Reaper or Collector ship, not to mention the fact that the IFF was for a REAPER and not a Collector ship. SInce Harbinger was in charge, that would've told him something was up.

1. Incorrect. Immediately upon exiting the relay, Joker has to make an emergency maneuver to avoid a large piece of debris directly ahead of the Normandy. The Normandy then flies above the debris field until the Occuli, hiding in the debris field, engage them and they're forced to flee into the field for cover. You can view the whole scene here.

2. Which again begs the question of why exactly the Reaper IFF was necessary to safely navigate the relay?

1. OK, forgot about that part, but it was preferable to almost hitting a black hole, where no maneuver would've helped.

2. I believe the relay might have been locked from use entirely without the IFF, and even if it wasn't use without an IFF would probably rtigger a trap of some sort on the other end.  By using the IFF, the Collectors didn't realize the NOrmandy was there till they were through the Relay.

[vanslyke85]

It makes sense. If not for the IFF we would have stood no chance of surviving once we got through the relay. It says it in the name...Identify Friend Foe, it's how the Reapers are able to safely travel through them and it's how they know about any enemy ship thats on it's way through the relay.

[Torhagen]

JKoopman wrote...

It apparently was supposed to allow for two things:

• It would allow the Normandy to safely traverse the Omega-4 Relay, whereas it was postulated that ships attempting to travel through the relay without an IFF would be deposited outside of a "safe zone" where they would be destroyed by the exploding stars and blackholes that riddle the galactic core.
• Like the name suggests, it would designate the Normandy as a friendly vessel and therefor any Collector defenses that lay in wait on the other side would let them pass unmolested, as it had also been speculated that the reason no ship ever returned through the Omega-4 Relay was because the Collectors either detained or destroyed them as soon as they arrived.

However, neither of those is true from what the game shows us. We emerge through the Omega-4 Relay inside the massive debris field that marks the remains of every other ship that's attempted to traverse the relay, meaning that the IFF doesn't change where the relay sends you as all those other ships were dumped in the exact same spot, and upon exiting the relay the Normandy is immediately attacked by the Collector's automated Oculi, so neither does the IFF allow the Normandy to bypass the Collector defenses.

So what good was it? Why did we even NEED the Reaper IFF? It seems like acompletely useless plot device, as we could've jumped through the Omega-4 Relay without it and presumably ended up with the exact same outcome.

You mention one of the many plotholes of ME2

[volus4life]

i thought reaper IFF only kept you safe from reaper tech. i thought the oculi was collector tech, because tbh, it got peaced out too easily to be really reaper tech.

[Spartas Husky]

volus4life wrote...

i thought reaper IFF only kept you safe from reaper tech. i thought the oculi was collector tech, because tbh, it got peaced out too easily to be really reaper tech.

No It just makes your travel more prescise. rather than drifting thousans or dozens of kilometers the IFF makes the travel more point to point, as to avoid running into a black hole or a sun.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:52 .

[volus4life]

Spartas Husky wrote...

volus4life wrote...

i thought reaper IFF only kept you safe from reaper tech. i thought the oculi was collector tech, because tbh, it got peaced out too easily to be really reaper tech.

No It just makes your travel more prescise. rather than drifting thousans or dozens of kilometers the IFF makes the travel more point to point, as to avoid running into a black hole or a sun.

yeah, i know that, i meant to reply to the point that even with the IFF, the oculi were still recognizing the Normandy as foe.

[Spartas Husky]

volus4life wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

volus4life wrote...

i thought reaper IFF only kept you safe from reaper tech. i thought the oculi was collector tech, because tbh, it got peaced out too easily to be really reaper tech.

No It just makes your travel more prescise. rather than drifting thousans or dozens of kilometers the IFF makes the travel more point to point, as to avoid running into a black hole or a sun.

yeah, i know that, i meant to reply to the point that even with the IFF, the oculi were still recognizing the Normandy as foe.

??? the IFF was only ment to be recognize by the Relays from what EDI states after the Collector Ship mission.

I think of it as a keycard to a door. its recognize by the door, but not by the guards at the other side

[Sidac]

JKoopman wrote...


[*]
So what good was it? Why did we even NEED the Reaper IFF? It seems like acompletely useless plot device, as we could've jumped through the Omega-4 Relay without it and presumably ended up with the exact same outcome.

[*]Im guessing you didnt listen to all the doilouge. He does state that without the IFF drift of several thousand meters (or KM) is common. while you come out of FTL and have to manuver quickly, think of all the ships that were there. Its kind of like a junkyard now. you may have overshot, you may have landed in the black hole which is nearby.

[*]As for oculus attacking, a visual scan will clearly tell you, normandy is not a reaper or collector ship. 1 layer of defence is just sheer stupidity.

Modifié par Sidac, 24 janvier 2011 - 09:22 .

[JKoopman]

Spartas Husky wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

2. Which again begs the question of why exactly the Reaper IFF was necessary to safely navigate the relay?

EDI explains it, others explain, I explain and you still ask.

The Galaxy's core is full of overly big suns and black holes. Normal mass relay transit protocols have drift. We saw it in ME1 and in ME2 of several thousands of kilometers... could be dozens of thousands, could be just 1 klick.

Since most relays are situated outside systems, it doesn't matter.

In prespective. YOu have a football field and your on the benches. Your goal is to hit the "green" zone. Very easy to do even with winds or w/e

In the galactic core, a small miscalculation means you end up in a black hole's gravitational pull, or near a giant sun.

All the IFF did is found a "safe zone" not affected by either suns or black holes, a zone where your ship can arrive safely outside natural forces that may harm it. Doubt is design to keep track of floating debree.

As has been pointed out several times, the Tartarus Debris Field, which is composed of the wreckage of every prior ship that's attempted to jump through the Omega-4 Relay, surrounds and orbits the Collector Base. Logically, any ship that jumps through the Omega-4 Relay must therefor emerge somewhere inside that ring. There is no miscalculation there. The relay isn't sending those ships into any stars or black holes. They're right there, in your face. Those ships are being dropped out in very close to the same place the Normandy was, so unless the Collectors are going out and moving the debris, the Reaper IFF doesn't seem to effect where the relay deposits you.

vanslyke85 wrote...

It makes sense. If not for the IFF we would have stood no chance of surviving once we got through the relay. It says it in the name...Identify Friend Foe, it's how the Reapers are able to safely travel through them and it's how they know about any enemy ship thats on it's way through the relay.

Yes. Identify Friend Foe. And yet the Collector Oculi are still able to Identify the Normandy as a Foe immediately upon exiting the relay. So, again, what use was it? In what way did the Reaper IFF benefit the Normandy?

The only way it remotely makes sense is if entering the Omega-4 Relay without the proper IFF simply results in your ship being immediately destroyed somehow by the relay. But how? That explanation flies in the face of how the mass relays are stated to work.

"Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free 'corridor' of space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL speeds."

Mass relays are basically slingshots that propel ships at incredible speeds along a beam or corridor of warped space-time. There is no deconstruction or reconstitution on the other side. The ship isn't being affected in any way. It's no different than dropping a boat into a fast-moving stream. The only way a mass relay could destroy a ship is by launching it into the aforementioned star or black hole which, as has been pointed out previously, the Omega-4 Relay clearly doesn't do.

So it can only be assumed that those ships that pass through the Omega-4 Relay without the proper IFF are simply destroyed by the Collectors. That would also make sense, and an IFF that tricks the Collector defenses into letting you pass unharmed would certainly come in handy. Except that, again, the Reaper IFF you acquire doesn't do that as the Collector's automated defenses still recognize you as a threat and engage you immediately on the other side.

So what exactly does it do?

Modifié par JKoopman, 24 janvier 2011 - 09:30 .

[Getorex]

Uh...how about you needed it to be able to go through the Omega Relay at all? It was your subway pass that you needed to collect so that the game would let you actually use the relay...otherwise Joker could have maneuvered his way around the sh*t on the far end just as well without the IFF.



Plus, you needed to go get the IFF in order to pick up your extra weapon (Widow or that AR rifle thing that sprayed all over the place but did high damage). Are those reasons good enough fer ya?

[JKoopman]

Getorex wrote...

Uh...how about you needed it to be able to go through the Omega Relay at all? It was your subway pass that you needed to collect so that the game would let you actually use the relay...otherwise Joker could have maneuvered his way around the sh*t on the far end just as well without the IFF.

Plus, you needed to go get the IFF in order to pick up your extra weapon (Widow or that AR rifle thing that sprayed all over the place but did high damage). Are those reasons good enough fer ya?

From a gameplay standpoint, yes. But Mass Effect has this bothersome little thing called a 'story' that keeps getting in the way.

[volus4life]

JKoopman wrote...

So it can only be assumed that those ships that pass through the Omega-4 Relay without the proper IFF are simply destroyed by the Collectors. That would also make sense, and an IFF that tricks the Collector defenses into letting you pass unharmed would certainly come in handy. Except that, again, the Reaper IFF you acquire doesn't do that as the Collector's automated defenses still recognize you as a threat and engage you immediately on the other side.

So what exactly does it do?

ok i see what you mean now. if the previous ships went through without an IFF and got dropped into a black hole, there would be no debris left behind. but when the normandy went through, there was all this debris, which means they didn't get dropped into a black hole like TIM theorized.

so either TIM was wrong, or all those previous ships also stole an IFF from reapers, and then got messed up by the collectors.

hmmmmmmm.

[LorDC]

JKoopman wrote...
Yes. Identify Friend Foe. And yet the Collector Oculi are still able to Identify the Normandy as a Foe immediately upon exiting the relay. So, again, what use was it? In what way did the Reaper IFF benefit the Normandy?

I don't know where you from so I'll use example from my point of view. Soldier uniform is sort of IFF too. But if saw black guy in Russian army uniform I'd instantly realize that he is infiltrator. And that black gut wouldn't probably be that stupid to hope that changing uniforms will make him look like Russian soldier. Or if S-400 air defense system detect an F-22 fighter that projects Russian IFF it will at least raise a lot of questions.
To put it short: IFF != magic invisibility cloak that makes everyone think that you are on his side.
As for why did we need it answer is simple: to get through O4 without harm.
Why all the debris? We are not given all details about what is beyond relay so piece of junk very well may have been the least danger there.

[Suron]

sth128 wrote...

For that matter, what good was the Illusive Man? He just sent Shepard blindly through the relay without so much as sending a probe first.

The first time Normandy saw the Collector we realized they have better weapons and better ships. So what does TIM do? He tells Shepard to collect a bunch of pokemons. What's Grunt gonna do if they go through the relay and 5 collector battle cruisers are sitting there, yell at them?

And why didn't TIM upgrade Normandy 2 before handing it to Shepard? Obviously he's got the $$$ and the intel for these upgrades. Hell, he didn't even buy some good food or plasma coils for them.

Even the Shadow Broker sent probes. TIM sucks.

I was gonna post..but read this....there's no point in me saying anything...cause....

exactly this.

[Wildecker]

These wrecks have been on the Omega Relay's far side for quite some time, drifting into each other, bouncing off, eventually getting closer to the relay's exit zone.

Now without the IFF you wouldn't even have time enough to yell "Oh shi..." before you run head-on into something big. While with the IFF you have time enough to yell and start some evasive action ... and I could imagine that the size of a ship has some influence on the speed it has when exiting the relay connection. Remember the big battle for the Citadel? The Alliance cruisers appeared to move pretty slow when they appeared, so my guess is the Collector Cruiser would have entered the debris field with a lot less speed - and therefore a lot more time to plot a safe course.

[JKoopman]

LorDC wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
Yes. Identify Friend Foe. And yet the Collector Oculi are still able to Identify the Normandy as a Foe immediately upon exiting the relay. So, again, what use was it? In what way did the Reaper IFF benefit the Normandy?

I don't know where you from so I'll use example from my point of view. Soldier uniform is sort of IFF too. But if saw black guy in Russian army uniform I'd instantly realize that he is infiltrator. And that black gut wouldn't probably be that stupid to hope that changing uniforms will make him look like Russian soldier. Or if S-400 air defense system detect an F-22 fighter that projects Russian IFF it will at least raise a lot of questions.
To put it short: IFF != magic invisibility cloak that makes everyone think that you are on his side.
As for why did we need it answer is simple: to get through O4 without harm.
Why all the debris? We are not given all details about what is beyond relay so piece of junk very well may have been the least danger there.

I think you're missing the point.

The Reaper IFF must do at least one of two things to be of any use. It must either program the Omega-4 Relay to deposit you inside a "safe zone" and send anyone traversing the relay without an IFF into a star or black hole OR it must broadcast a friendly signature so that any automated defenses on the other side don't recognize you as a thread.

It does neither of those things.

It can't be sending the Normandy into a "safe zone" and sending all other ships into a star or black hole because it drops the Normandy right in the middle of the debris of every other ship that's passed through the relay, which makes up a field that surrounds the Collector Base. So, logically, those other ships must also have been dropped out in roughly the same location as the Normandy.

And neither can the IFF be masking the Normandy from detection by the Collector defenses as the automated Oculi drones immediately engage them.

Of course an IFF alone isn't going to fool anyone if they can look out a porthole and see that you're not a Collector or a Reaper. But in space, where effective ranges are measured far greater than here on Earth, LADAR and an IFF signature is often your only means of identifying a vessel that's +25km away. And to an automated drone, an IFF alone may be all that's required. And it begs the question of, again, if the IFF doesn't reprogram the relay and it isn't enough to bypass the Collector defenses, then what good is it and why do you need it?