226 réponses à ce sujet

[masterkajo]

Dusty Everman wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I hate how you have to flirt with Kelly in order to get her to feed the fish.

You don't have to flirt with her to have her feed your fish.  You can just be friends with her too.  You just need to have dinner with her.

There are two paths with Yeoman Chambers: flirty and friendly.  When she says she knows you'd catch her, you have three responses:
1. I'd drop you:  Kelly will now be all business.  No friendship there.
2. I'd catch you:  You have started the friendship path with her.
3. I'd embrace you:  You have started the flirty path with her.

If you pick 3, the next time you talk to her she even double checks if you meant to be flirty.  She asks is she was too forward.  At that point you can basically say you didn't mean to give her the wrong impression, and move back to the friend path.

If you talk to her often and aren't rude to her, at some point she will say she'd like to get to know you better.  She has to be comfortable with you before she'd even mention such a thing.  You are her commanding officer after all.  At that point you can have dinner with her, on BOTH the friendly and flirty paths.  What happens during dinner if implied by you.  On the friendly path, obviously it was two friends enjoying conversation.  On the flirty path... well, you tell me.  What happened there is dependant on how your Shepard would approach things.

So if you have a friendship, you won't get flirt options, but she will confide in you her thoughts and feelings about people.  Once you have dinner with her, she now feel comfortable enough to suggest entering your private quarters to feed your fish.

And even if you are on the flirty path and have dinner with her, that doesn't necessarily imply you were physical with her.

Exaclty what I am saying. I have  female friends and am kind of flirty with them though not in a serious way. So when we are going to have dinner, we just have dinner.

Modifié par masterkajo, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .

[bjdbwea]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd love to romance Kelly... if you could have a serious, intellectually mature relationship as opposed to the over-the-top flirtation requirement.

Kelly's romance is the most realistic and mature relationship you can have on the Normandy SR2.

By far.

I agree, and whoever wrote Kelly did a very good job. She'a a great character, and the conversations with her are among my favorite moments in the game.

What do not like is that the romance seems to be only half-finished. The dinner scene should have been playable. But I especially don't like the end result of the romance. And I don't say that because I would have expected a love scene. But I would have even less expected the scene that's there instead. It's not the things that happen per se, but that there's no proper context, no dialogue anymore.

Throughout the game, it feels as if Kelly really cares about Shepard, and (if the player chooses the right answers) Shepard about her. But at the end it almost feels as if she's reduced to being a priiize, a piece of decoration in Shepard's room. I seem to remember that someone of the developers called this just an easter egg, but I then I disagree with that choice, and it contradicts the amount of work that's obviously been put into writing her character up to that point. It certainly wouldn't have been much more work to give this romance a proper ending.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:25 .

[Stengahpolis]

2kgnsiika wrote...

I always felt dirty after "romancing" Kelly Chambers. Not that there's anything wrong with her as a person. Sleeping with your assistant just feels like an out-of-character moment for Shepard. A hero like him just doesn't screw around with random yeomen and act like nothing happened.

Out-of-character for your Shepard maybe.  My Shepard has no problem with banging his secretary.  And honestly, what's the point of being a big goddam hero if you don't screw around with random women?

[2kgnsiika]

Stengahpolis wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

I always felt dirty after "romancing" Kelly Chambers. Not that there's anything wrong with her as a person. Sleeping with your assistant just feels like an out-of-character moment for Shepard. A hero like him just doesn't screw around with random yeomen and act like nothing happened.

Out-of-character for your Shepard maybe.  My Shepard has no problem with banging his secretary.  And honestly, what's the point of being a big goddam hero if you don't screw around with random women?

You're absolutely right. I guess it's just that all but one of my Shepards are strictly monogamous. The other one did bang Kelly, as well as the Consort, Liara, Jack, Miranda and Tali. He even tried to get that threesome with Ash and Liara.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Exaclty what I am saying. I have  female friends and am kind of flirty with them though not in a serious way. So when we are going to have dinner, we just have dinner.

But do you have dinner with them in your bedroom?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd love to romance Kelly... if you could have a serious, intellectually mature relationship as opposed to the over-the-top flirtation requirement.

Kelly's romance is the most realistic and mature relationship you can have on the Normandy SR2.

By far.

While I'd certainly agree to 'realistic' (bar, perhaps, the Jacob romance), as the Kelly path actually has build-up and has Shepard treating her to dinner and a date before anything, it's only a hit-or-miss sense of 'most mature'. Some people flirt, and flirt heavily, in relationships, but other people don't: they might simply be forward, they might dance around it, whatever.

I feel the Kelly romance shares a flaw with the Tali romance in that it is strictly 'paragon' in Shepard's manner and, well, the sort of romanticizing that I find more appropriate in a teenage story than what I prefer. If Tali could fall in love with a total Renegade player, I don't see why a romance should be sugar-sweet, and if anything I'd feel Kelly Chambers is even better suited for understanding/accepting a Renegade.

She's a psychologist, and it's a shame it wasn't used more as it would have played very well in plausible Renegade-themed romance line: someone who could see possible inner motivations and feelings not easily or outwardly expressed, with possibly an inversation of the 'Shepard fixes Jack' theme in 'Kelly helps Renegade Shepard.' Kelly, of all people, should be the least likely to be outright turned away by initial skepticism.

I'm not saying that she should have thrown herself at Shepard no matter what, but it's more than a little emersion-breaking when my general view of Renegade is 'professional/cold first, bond later,' (which is generally how it could work with all your ME1, and most the ME2, sqaudies), but that your first contact with Kelly includes a 'be professional, end romance option now' point.


Kelly may be a realistic romance, but as it is she's more of a realistic Paragon romance. Which is a shame, because I think she could have been a great Renegade foil.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I don't see how your Shepard's "morality" should affect the romance, and I'm quite certain you don't gain very many paragon/renegade points from talking to Kelly at all. You get 5 points of each for having dinner with her and that's pretty much it.



That said, since you aren't really making any moral decisions the dialogue is not strictly labeled as such despite its position on the dialogue wheel. Flirting with someone, complimenting them, having open discussions with them, etc, are all things that most would describe as more paragon actions. And on the flip-side, telling someone to pipe down and keep things professional is a more renegade attitude.



But even with that in mind, just because you're playing a renegade Shepard does not mean you're obligated to pick the "renegade bottom right option" in every conversation, My renegade alt is almost purely renegade, and she still romances Kelly and it's still an awesome romance. Just because she's "renegade" with major decisions doesn't mean it's out of character for her to tell Kelly that she's pretty or that she wants a hug or any of the other flirtation options. It's a very mature relationship regardless of your Shepard's political/tactical morality; you just need to be playing a character who is willing to flirt, and that's a big part of most realistic relationships.



In short, I guess I don't see your issue. You want the romance to be completely different if you're a renegade Shepard?

[sth128]

I'm just going to assume that Shepard and Kelly never slept together, and the psychology of the future proved lap dances as the best way to relief stress when you're on a quest to stop an invincible army of robot squids.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's a shame,, Kelteel. My issue, such that it is, is that I want variety and not to be forced on one primary track of dialogue that can easily not fit any Shepard.



Cases like the Miranda, the Jacob, and even the ME1 human romance demonstrate how the tone of the romance can change when it incorporates 'morality' paths: a number of Miranda fans put off by her paragon dialogue have loudly rejoiced at the 'renegade' dialogue compliment, you could only get Jacob to say 'I love you' with a 'renegade' choice in your cabin itself, and both human LI's in ME1 could be Paragoned or Renegaded depending on your choices. While all these romances also held stop/go choices, they also allowed for variety in how one



I have long noted, and criticized, the change of function of the dialogue wheel when it changes from genuine 'paragon/renegade tone' format to 'yes/no'. As a set-up it's poor and even confusing, because the indicators between 'yes/no' and 'tone' are not clear and many players are so hesitant to avoid an accidental 'no' that it limits their willingness to explore Mass Effect's generally superb dialogue variation. But that's not the point here: there is no belief on this end that 'Renegades must always choose the lower right option.' Anyone who knows me would laugh to hear that position given to me.



The matter is variation of tone. Mass Effect isn't a Japanese light-novel game, with singular dialogue branches after a few choices. The biggest selling point of Mass Effect as an RPG is the ability to choose the tone of how you progress (Paragon or Renegade), while still being able to progress. One of the strong points of the series is the overall ability to reflect a far wider range of characters because of the capability of nuance.



The Kelly romance largely lacks this. That you don't mind the lack doesn't mean it isn't lacking in a quality far more present in a number of other romances. It has nothing to do with whether it's in character for your Shepard, regardless of alignment, to flirt with and pursue Kelly in that way. Regardless of alignment, it's still in-character for your Shepard.



It has everything to do with everyone else, who's Shepard's would not be in character in choosing such options, being forced to choose an immersion-breaking out-of-character necessity or being unable to pursue a Kelly relationship of any sort.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It has everything to do with everyone else, who's Shepard's would not be in character in choosing such options, being forced to choose an immersion-breaking out-of-character necessity or being unable to pursue a Kelly relationship of any sort.

Well, I find that if a romance forces me to act "out of character" in its pursuit that I don't pursue that romance with said character. 
Perhaps Kelly simply doesn't like the renegade responses and won't be romantic with one.  Just because Miranda allows Shepard to say he just wants to get in her pants doesn't mean all the romances should.

So, again, I don't see an issue.  If flirting is not part of your Shep's personality then you kinda have to accept that oyu won't be able ot seduce someone who values it, or accept that in doing so you're acting out of character.

*And I certainly don't see how this has anything to do with Kelly's romance being mature, which was the original point.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:16 .

[PauseforEffect]

It's kind of confusing the way they treat the relationship. If you romance a teammate, you hear about it through Mordin, Kasumi, Liara and you get the merit badge for it. But with Kelly, though Kasumi will mention it, the rest of the crew say nary a word. Is it that the rest of the team pays more attention if Shepard has a falling out with the teammate that can wield a gun? Kelly could arguably be considered a teammate as she's contributing towards the same goal, however indirectly

[Dean_the_Young]

Or perhaps the Kelly romance had a lot less effort put into it. Which, by any measure of comparison to the dedicated scenes with all the other romance paths, is a pretty safe conclusion.

We can retroactively justify everything from a basis that the characters were written perfectly as intended, or we can look at comparisons to the majority of other romances in the same game, and spot a structural difference. Since nothing in the Kelly romance gives any real indication of a personality conflict with Renegades or general Renegade options (unlike, say, Samara's rejection of Renegades), and nearly every other romance in the game offers more role playing leeway in advancing a relationship, I lean towards a structural explanation of the difference.

I'm hardly going to reject or deny anyone else's enjoyment of what was provided. Since you do apparently enjoy what you were given, it's natural you don't seen it as an issue: someone's else's problem, someone else's concern and all that. Smaller people don't see needs for larger cars, meat-eaters don't see the validity of a vegetarian perspective, and so on.

My simple point was that the Kelly romance could have been easily expanded from what it was, without any radical redesign or re-conception of the character, and made more role-player friendly. As Mass Effect is at it's heart a role-playing game, this is a virtue I maintain should be present throughout as much of the game as possible, and there was never a particular character-specific reason why it shouldn't have been present for Kelly, while Kelly's character could easily have been used as a basis for such an expansion.

The lack of it is a pity and missed opportunity, not an evaluation that Kelly sucks as a romance option.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:29 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The lack of it is a pity and missed opportunity, not an evaluation that Kelly sucks as a romance option.

You originally listed your problem with it as a reason why the romance is not "mature".  I don't see that.

I can see how someone might be disappointed that they have to be flirty with someone to romance them (though I also admit that kind of disappointment seems rather silly to me).

Just because you think the romance could have been more elaborate to account for a bunch of different variables does not mean that what is there is not "mature" or that it's somehow less mature than the others.  Maybe you simply have a different interpretation of what "mature" means.

[PauseforEffect]

Didn't the Devs say that Kelly's relationship was a test run and will be built further in ME3? Would be curious to see, and a good chance to ask for more to be built upon what was started.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

PrimalEden wrote...

Didn't the Devs say that Kelly's relationship was a test run and will be built further in ME3? Would be curious to see, and a good chance to ask for more to be built upon what was started.

Last I heard they had no specific plans to have Kelly return, but that didn't mean she wouldn't.  But that was a long time ago when I heard it.

Would be shame if she didn't, but C-Hud did claim she wasn't really a romance, and romancing Kelly doesn't make your ME1 LI's photo fall down, so who knows?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The lack of it is a pity and missed opportunity, not an evaluation that Kelly sucks as a romance option.

You originally listed your problem with it as a reason why the romance is not "mature".  I don't see that.
I can see how someone might be disappointed that they have to be flirty with someone to romance them (though I also admit that kind of disappointment seems rather silly to me).

Just because you think the romance could have been more elaborate to account for a bunch of different variables does not mean that what is there is not "mature" or that it's somehow less mature than the others.  Maybe you simply have a different interpretation of what "mature" means.

Or maybe I read what I wrote: "intellectually mature."


Whatever you might think of the Kelly romance and the maturity of that sort of flirting, an intellectual attraction/romance it ain't. Which is a shame, because she could qualify as an honest-to-got intellectual.

'Bunch of different variables' is in large part mitigated by the unique format of the Kelly dialogue setup. Even in pursuing a romance, the options open up after certain missions, while one of Kelly's better game traits is a variety of unique post-recruitment dialogues, where she ways in on the character of the moment. Kelly's character draw, like Joker, is her frequent up-to-date dialogue bits.

This could have reasonably and effectively been expanded to post-Loyalty dialogues as well, the main missions where Shepard actually gets to make Big Choices, similar to the Udina/Anderson post-story mission scenes in ME1. In such a setup, Kelly could briefly give Shepard a 'companion X is relieved/grateful/focused' bit, but also give Shepard a foil for justifying the actions or perspectives regardless, with Kelly playing a subtle role as understanding counselor. Not only would this give Kelly more input and leeway in a Paragon/Renegade manner for Shepard, but it would also have been an excellent choice for Shepard to show personal thoughts and character.

An example: Jacob's loyalty mission, where Shepard's choice amounts to Captain Talor's suicide, death by retribution, or arrest. Kelly would comment on what did occur, but give Shepard a chance to justify or explain if he wanted ('I let him be mauled to death because he deserved to answer for his crimes', only with paragon/renegade explanations). Or on Tali's loyalty mission: even if Shepard reveals the data, he can make a case to Kelly why his doing so was the right course, and while it won't win back Tali's loyalty, Kelly provides the 'understanding shoulder' that fits her character as a confidant/aid/mental health advisor. Kelly is an optimist, and her seeing (and allowing for an expression of) the morality of any particular course would have been an excellent cornerstone in her characterization and romance, regardless of paragon or renegade.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I agree with what you're saying. There are plenty of ways to improve Kelly's romance path, but what is there I found to be far more mature and realistic than the other romances.

[darknoon5]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I agree with what you're saying. There are plenty of ways to improve Kelly's romance path, but what is there I found to be far more mature and realistic than the other romances.

Lol

...you are joking, right?


I like Kelly, but there is no romance with her. She's not even a one night stand. She just dances. Also, she doesn't seem very mature at all to me, neither does her "romance". Her views on Cerberus are appalingly naive.

To me, the Kelly relationship just seems to be friendship with certain benefits (fish feeding, for one)

Modifié par darknoon5, 26 janvier 2011 - 04:32 .

[darknoon5]

Brodyaha wrote...

So a romance path is meaningless if there's no sex involved?

If you were referring to me, no, but there's next to no romantic dialog, at least not in my interpretation, which is why she isn't a romance.

I think you misinterpreted my post. I meant to say as well as not being a romance, she isn't even really cheating in some senses, seeing as she just dances.

Also, she's not registered as an LI, and does not give the paramour achievement. That is not coincidence.

Modifié par darknoon5, 26 janvier 2011 - 04:30 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

darknoon5 wrote...
Lol
...you are joking, right?
I like Kelly, but there is no romance with her. She's not even a one night stand. She just dances. Also, she doesn't seem very mature at all to me, neither does her romance. Her views on Cerberus are appalingly naive.
To me, the Kelly relationship just seems to be friendship with certain benefits (fish feeding, for one)

You're joking, right?
I said romance, not sex.  Consistent flirting, caring for your well-being, having a date, and general romantic attraction all culminating in what happens at your cabin is more of a romance than any of the other characters got.

There's no specific "take my clothes off and jump you as the camera fades to black" sex scene, but there was a lot of romance.

Her views on Cerberus honestly don't make any sense to me.  Her personality is not suited for a group like that, but I take that just like I take Liara's super revenge obsession.  It's mostly a plot device, and that same fault is found almost every time when it comes to Cerberus.  Everyone has the same boilerplate reason for being there that really doesn't make sense.

[darknoon5]

I already addressed that I meant romance, not sex, read my other post. I recall no "I love you" or any major romance scene, obviously difficult to implement due to the suicide mission, but if she had a romance, there would be one.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

darknoon5 wrote...
I think you misinterpreted my post. I meant to say as well as not being a romance, she isn't even really cheating in some senses, seeing as she just dances.
Also, she's not registered as an LI, and does not give the paramour achievement. That is not coincidence.

She dances, snuggles with you in bed, and sits on your lap on the couch.  That's more than the other romances get, and you can call the dancing her substitute for the sex scene.

The Paramour achievement is specifically for romancing a squadmate, which Kelly is not.  Regardless of what C-Hud might say about the officialness of Kelly's romance, it is still present and it is still a canon part of the game, hence it is a romance.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 26 janvier 2011 - 04:37 .