105 réponses à ce sujet

[monopoly1888]

I was wondering is there anyway to recruit Loghain but retain Allistair as a companion?

[KnightofPhoenix]

No.

[Ryzaki]

Alas no.



Honestly I wish there was because the banters between them would've had serious potential.

[errant_knight]

For that minute and a half before Alistair killed him or died trying.

[Ryzaki]

errant_knight wrote...

For that minute and a half before Alistair killed him or died trying.

Nah I doubt Alistair would've done that if you managed to convince them to work together for whatever reasons.

For all his flaws Alistair is pretty good at keeping his word.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

No, but looking at the toolset there is some (cut) material at Ostagar which includes Alistair/Loghain banter. Suggests at one point they were going to give us both.

[errant_knight]

Ryzaki wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

For that minute and a half before Alistair killed him or died trying.

Nah I doubt Alistair would've done that if you managed to convince them to work together for whatever reasons.

For all his flaws Alistair is pretty good at keeping his word.

I don't think he'd give his word. I can't imagine him ever agreeing to be in a party with Loghain. He makes his argument for not being able to do so very well at the Landsmeet. I suspect that one of the reasons that was cut was that they couldn't figure out a believable way to have them both in the same party. There's no way the warden could convince him to do so. He hates you at that point. Given the opportunity, someone could probably convince him to fight the blight in another capacity somewhere else, but it wouldn't be the warden.

[Ryzaki]

^I seriously doubt that but our views are probably irreconcilable.

Frankly I think it would've been possible to talk Alistair down had the plot not demanded we choose one or the other.

Also hating the Warden is taking it a bit far and makes Alistair seem like a childish twerp. He hates the warden because the Warden dared make a decision he doesn't like? That's ridculous. It makes more sense that he's disgusted by the Warden's actions than actually hating the Warden for having the audacity to spare a man's life. Man who killed his father figure or no.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:23 .

[errant_knight]

Ryzaki wrote...

^I seriously doubt that but our views are probably irreconcilable.

Frankly I think it would've been possible to talk Alistair down had the plot not demanded we choose one or the other.

Also hating the Warden is taking it a bit far and makes Alistair seem like a childish twerp. He hates the warden because the Warden dared make a decision he doesn't like? That's ridculous. It makes more sense that he's disgusted by the Warden's actions than actually hating the Warden for having the audacity to spare a man's life. Man who killed his father figure or no.

Okay, he really, really, really dislikes the warden--whom he compares to a pit viper.
The audacity to spare a man's life? No. Not from Alistair's POV. The audacity to spare a murderer and regicide, not only letting him go unpunished, but rewarding him with what he considered a great honor. You may not agree with him, but it's not about disliking mercy. It's about the warden tossing what he sees as justice out the window and betraying him personally.

Modifié par errant_knight, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[Ryzaki]

errant_knight wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^I seriously doubt that but our views are probably irreconcilable.

Frankly I think it would've been possible to talk Alistair down had the plot not demanded we choose one or the other.

Also hating the Warden is taking it a bit far and makes Alistair seem like a childish twerp. He hates the warden because the Warden dared make a decision he doesn't like? That's ridculous. It makes more sense that he's disgusted by the Warden's actions than actually hating the Warden for having the audacity to spare a man's life. Man who killed his father figure or no.

Okay, he really, really, really dislikes the warden--whom he compares to a pit viper.

Eh. That makes him look really childish and petty. (Which I suppose was the point). I hope that he would mature enough to realize that while the Warden made a decision he didn't agree with that doesn't mean everything he and the Warden went through together meant nothing (friendship wise or romance wise).

And while that man may be a murderer and ruined thousands of peoples lives hating the person who signed them a different kind of death sentence is just...urgh.

But I already said our points of view are irreconcible so this is a futile effort.

And Alistair isn't being "betrayed" unless you allow him to be executed. Stopping him from killing a man hardly amounts to stabbing him in the back. And yes I'd feel the same way if he stopped my HN from killing Howe.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:40 .

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...
Okay, he really, really, really dislikes the warden--whom he compares to a pit viper.

Eh, if I recall correctly, he only compares you to a pit viper if you allow his execution (and choose the "it's about time" line).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:37 .

[errant_knight]

Right, that's true. Still, I don't think that changes his feelings about this. The warden simply couldn't do something he thinks is worse.

(Kudos to Zjarcal, who really knows her toolset! )

Ryzaki, I see it completely differently, of course. In fact, it would be impossible for me to see it more differently. 

Modifié par errant_knight, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:52 .

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

Right, that's true. Still, I don't think that changes his feelings about this. The warden simply couldn't do something he thinks is worse.

Oh, I agree. Just wanted to clarify. :happy:

EDIT: Lol! I only know how to browse dialogue in the toolset... you're the one who makes awesome screenies!

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:44 .

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Right, that's true. Still, I don't think that changes his feelings about this. The warden simply couldn't do something he thinks is worse.

Oh, I agree. Just wanted to clarify. :happy:

EDIT: Lol! I only know how to browse dialogue in the toolset... you're the one who makes awesome screenies!

Why,  thank you! Say, I haven't made one for you in a while, have I? PM me a request and I'll see what I can come up with tomorrow.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

errant_knight wrote...

I can't imagine him ever agreeing to be in a party with Loghain. He makes his argument for not being able to do so very well at the Landsmeet. I suspect that one of the reasons that was cut was that they couldn't figure out a believable way to have them both in the same party. There's no way the warden could convince him to do so. He hates you at that point. Given the opportunity, someone could probably convince him to fight the blight in another capacity somewhere else, but it wouldn't be the warden.

Actually, I think Riordan *might* have been able to talk sense into Alistair. He knows Duncan (probably better than Alistair), knows the Grey Wardens aren't all about sunshine and sparkles, and...surely the fact Loghain had had him tortured (or knowingly permitted it) would give Riordan some legitimate say in Loghain's fate.

Revealing how Duncan had been recruited (if know) could have been a needed bucket of cold water to the face too.

How about doing something with Loghain that didn't involve killing him OR making him a Grey Warden? It was making him a GW that Alistair protested most strongly. Perhaps they could have endured each other had Loghain not gone through the Joining.

Who knows, though. Only so many possibilities the game could give us, I guess...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 25 janvier 2011 - 09:00 .

[HolyAvenger]

All it needed was 5 minutes alone with Riordan, the Warden, Alistair and Loghain explaining exactly and in great detail WHY every single Grey Warden is necessary.

I doubt Alistair would've put his personal feeling in front of, y'know, killing the Archdemon and ending the freaking Blight.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 25 janvier 2011 - 09:52 .

[nos_astra]

What sense should Riordan talk into Alistair?

The way the Landsmeet is done is so incredilby stupid that Alistair's reaction seems like breaking the fourth wall.

Riordan is a stranger, why trust him?
You've never been actually a part of the order, you've never learned about their (arbitrary and inconsistent) policies.
Why recruit an old man into the order and risk his death if you think he'd be a valuable asset? Use him now, punish him later.

AAAArrrrrghhh!

The Landsmeet is a perfect example of deliberately not discussing important decisions beforehand as a plot twist.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:09 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

klarabella wrote...

The Landsmeet is a perfect example of deliberately not discussing important decisions beforehand as a plot twist.

Quoted for Truth.

[Corker]

And better - at Eamon's, Riordan will ask to talk with you "after the Landsmeet." Yet, Loghain recruit or not, he dashes off to Ostagar first thing, so that you have to have *another* plot twisty reveal just before the DR. Because confirming that the other two Wardens knew what the heck they doing was less important than fifteen extra minutes on the road.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bioware's writers love railroaded drama, it seems.



Actually, I was considering klarabella's "The way the Landsmeet is done is so incredilby stupid that Alistair's reaction seems like breaking the fourth wall." comment, and I have to say that it wasn't just the Landsmeet that made Alistair's reaction feel like a sucker-punch (to me, anyway).



Add to the Landsmeet fiasco the fact that Alistair's dialogue contains precisely TWO angry pre-Landsmeet snarks about Loghain (that I could find), and you only ever see them if you pick less-than-nice dialogue options. For a lot of players Alistair comes across as unhappy about Duncan's death, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest he *hates* Loghain. He doesn't even pipe up when you meet the guy in Denerim.

[HolyAvenger]

Yes that really took me by surprise when I played through the Landsmeet the first time. We'd had no conversations about Loghain, and it was perfectly in my character's leanings to spare him. Alistair's reaction seemed very out of character to me.

[Eber]

Corker wrote...

And better - at Eamon's, Riordan will ask to talk with you "after the Landsmeet." Yet, Loghain recruit or not, he dashes off to Ostagar first thing, so that you have to have *another* plot twisty reveal just before the DR. Because confirming that the other two Wardens knew what the heck they doing was less important than fifteen extra minutes on the road.

That plot twist is absurd. The idea that the Wardens would keep the fact that one of them is needed to kill the archdemon secret is ridiculous. It is excellent propaganda material for them that can be used to motivate their existance and need for support. It would also build on the hero hype and the effect on volounteers would be negligible, if at all negative. No one signs up expecting to be the one to end the next Blight, unless they have a hero complex in which case killing themselves is just icing on the cake.

"We keep it a secret for the same reason the Joining is kept secret. Who would become a Warden if they knew the end that might await them?"

I don't buy it. Not for a second. Keeping the Joining secret makes sense. This is just silly. Not to mention people might start picking up on the pattern if they keep burying the heroes next to each other.

Modifié par Eber, 25 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@HolyAvenger: I don't know about out of character, but *definitely* out of the blue.



@Eber: I also find it hard to justify, particularly since the number of archdemons is (we think) very small, and Blights don't happen every day. It's like being scared to cross the road because a cart might run over you. If they kept it hushed up because they didn't want the fact Grey Wardens are *tainted* to be figured out, that would make more sense to me.

[mousestalker]

"Why is there a sign posted 'Danger: Cart Crossing'? Isn't that what carts do?"



"Because if you go down that path the odds are you will be run over by the Plot Wagon".

[Eber]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Eber: I also find it hard to justify, particularly since the number of archdemons is (we think) very small, and Blights don't happen every day. It's like being scared to cross the road because a cart might run over you. If they kept it hushed up because they didn't want the fact Grey Wardens are *tainted* to be figured out, that would make more sense to me.

That explanation makes more sense. Perhaps it is the real one and Riordan is only confused. Yes that must be it.