105 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

ROFL@mouse XD

[sevalaricgirl]

Loghaine is a traitor, sold elves into slavery, pulled his troops and let the king die, took over the regency, allowed Howe to kidnap his daughter, and put a hit on Eamon and the wardens. That is plenty reason for Alistair to be upset. I kill Loghain every time because I see it as justice. Loghain wants you dead even til the end of his life. He called everyone in the landsmeet a traitor when in fact he was the traitor and if you don't duel him, more people will lose their lives because he won't step down and do what the nobility wants. He even wanted to end the bannorn leadership. For Rhiodan to even suggest it is lunacy considering that he's a stranger to Fereldon having lived in Orlais. Alistair barely knows him and the warden who makes the decision ultimately didn't know him at all. My wardens all sentence Loghain to death and allow Alistair to do it.

[nos_astra]

That's what I thought, too. Keeping the taint as secret as possible, yes, this I can see. People are afraid of magic, especially blood magic. And the taint is still known as a horrible sickness that spreads. People would never dare to come close to a Warden if they knew for sure.

But the rest? Why would they keep it a secret what sacrifice has to be made? Shortened life span, no children, go down fighting - but it's your chance to redeem yourself. And you get to be part of an order of heroes.

Why would they allow you to recruit a convicted murderer off the gallows if they don't know anything?

Guy 1: Hey, this guy over there says he's looking for new recruits. He wants us to release this one *gestures to a mean looking prisoner* into his custody.
Guy 2: Why should we? I don't even-
Guy 1: He says, they'll make him fight darkspawn.
Guy 2: Darkspawn? Are there even any darkspawn left?
Guy 1: Dunno. *shrugs*
Guy 2: And what if the guy refuses to fight darkspawn?
Guy 1: Dunno. *shrugs*
Guy 2: Will they lock him up if he doesn't fight? Or kill him?
Guy 1: Dunno. *shrugs*
Guy 2: Any other reason why we should spare him his punishment? The deathsman could use a new pair of shoes, you know?
Guy 1: *shrugs* Darkspawn?
Guy 2: Well, I suppose, it's cool then.

^^

Modifié par klarabella, 25 janvier 2011 - 01:21 .

[HolyAvenger]

Yes exactly Klarabella. I think we had this discussion about the City Elf origin. Otherwise becoming a Grey Warden isn't much of a punishment (or its an open invitation to break as many laws as you like).

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Why would they allow you to recruit a convicted murderer off the gallows if they don't know anything?

Guy 1: Hey, this guy over there says he's looking for new recruits. He wants us to release this one *gestures to a mean looking prisoner* into his custody.
Guy 2: Why should we? I don't even-
Guy 1: He says, they'll make him fight darkspawn.
Guy 2: Darkspawn? Are there even any darkspawn left?
Guy 1: Dunno. *shrugs*
Guy 2: And what if the guy refuses to fight darkspawn?
Guy 1: Dunno. *shrugs*
Guy 2: Will they lock him up if he doesn't fight? Or kill him?
Guy 1: Dunno. *shrugs*
Guy 2: Any other reason why we should spare him his punishment? The deathsman could use a new pair of shoes, you know?
Guy 1: *shrugs* Darkspawn?
Guy 2: Well, I suppose, it's cool then.

^^

All this is irrelevent, Wardens have the right of conscription that trumps any law, they have to abide by it.
They have the force of law with them.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
All this is irrelevent, Wardens have the right of conscription that trumps any law, they have to abide by it.
They have the force of law with them.

By what law? International law? It's more like a tradition, I'd say.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 janvier 2011 - 03:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
All this is irrelevent, Wardens have the right of conscription that trumps any law, they have to abide by it.
They have the force of law with them.

By what law? International law? It's more like a tradition, I'd say.

The law of every single country. That's the Right of Conscription.
The Warden just needs to speak with the authorities, conscript and they have to let the criminal go.

That's what Duncan did with Daveth. And Alistair.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2011 - 03:34 .

[_Aine_]

Alistair viewed being a Grey Warden as an honour, it was his salvation after all, so to him this made sense. The more harsh truth was that the Grey Wardens recruited people for their skills, not their noble hearts. No matter what you personally think of Loghain, he had brass ones, willing to make the tough (and sometimes of course, wrong) decision and had years of experience. I regretted immensely that you couldn't take Alistair aside with Rhiordan for a nice little chat and a dose of reality. Alistair was too inflamed with personal hate ( understandably though, I may add) to see the potential benefits of having someone skilled you don't like as a Grey Warden.

As a personal decision, yes, be pissed right off. As a Grey Warden wanting to save the world: think more tactically and deal with personal vendetta's when the threat has subsided. 

Modifié par shantisands, 25 janvier 2011 - 03:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

shantisands wrote...

Alistair viewed being a Grey Warden as an honour, it was his salvation after all, so to him this made sense. The more harsh truth was that the Grey Wardens recruited people for their skills, not their noble hearts. No matter what you personally think of Loghain, he had brass ones, willing to make the tough (and sometimes of course, wrong) decision and had years of experience. I regretted immensely that you couldn't take Alistair aside with Rhiordan for a nice little chat and a dose of reality. Alistair was too inflamed with personal hate ( understandably though, I may add) to see the potential benefits of having someone skilled you don't like as a Grey Warden.

Yep.
What I wanted to do is throw Alistair in a prison cell. Bring Riordan with me and tell him what he meant. If that is still not enough to convince Alistair, then I'd start beating some sense into him.
If that is still not enough, then either we leave him there or execution.

But forcing me to choose between executing him or letting him go without giving me a chance to even try to reason with him is meh.

[DWSmiley]

There is a way to get both Alistair and Loghain in the party. Qwinn's fixpack does a lot of good things but it's quite buggy at the Landsmeet. When you get back to Eamon's estate you may have both of them or neither of them. It may depend on your choices at the Landsmeet; I haven't tried to figure it out. Once when I had them both I took them for a stroll around the market place just to see if I could. It worked but I reloaded anyway as I figured the game was bound to blow up at some point.

[errant_knight]

Perhaps I'm just more savage than you guys, but when Alistair talked about bringing Loghain to justice, and my PC could say the same to him, I had no doubt that we were talking about killing him.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The law of every single country. That's the Right of Conscription.
The Warden just needs to speak with the authorities, conscript and they have to let the criminal go.

That's what Duncan did with Daveth. And Alistair.

Whatever convinced them to establish such a law? And what kind of law is it if a country an simply throw this order out?

Modifié par klarabella, 25 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The law of every single country. That's the Right of Conscription.
The Warden just needs to speak with the authorities, conscript and they have to let the criminal go.

That's what Duncan did with Daveth. And Alistair.

Whatever convinced them to establish such a law.? And what kind of law is it if a country an simply throw this order out?

It was a response to the Blights.

I'd say if an order tries to overthrow a country's ruler, then it all gets tossed out the window.  But it still took a great deal of Ferelden's army to dislodge them.  I wonder how different Ferelden would look if Sophia had succeeded- more like Anderfels maybe.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The law of every single country. That's the Right of Conscription.
The Warden just needs to speak with the authorities, conscript and they have to let the criminal go.

That's what Duncan did with Daveth. And Alistair.

Whatever convinced them to establish such a law? And what kind of law is it if a country an simply throw this order out?

The Blight.

And the law comes from the crown / Landsmeet (in Ferelden's case). If the crown decides to kick the order out, that's the new law. 
Laws can and do change you know.

Doesn't change the fact that the Right of Conscription is part of the law, unless revoked by the host country.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[Giggles_Manically]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Loghaine is a traitor, sold elves into slavery, pulled his troops and let the king die, took over the regency, allowed Howe to kidnap his daughter, and put a hit on Eamon and the wardens. That is plenty reason for Alistair to be upset. I kill Loghain every time because I see it as justice. Loghain wants you dead even til the end of his life. He called everyone in the landsmeet a traitor when in fact he was the traitor and if you don't duel him, more people will lose their lives because he won't step down and do what the nobility wants. He even wanted to end the bannorn leadership. For Rhiodan to even suggest it is lunacy considering that he's a stranger to Fereldon having lived in Orlais. Alistair barely knows him and the warden who makes the decision ultimately didn't know him at all. My wardens all sentence Loghain to death and allow Alistair to do it.

<Shale voice>Good for it!</shale voice>

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
It was a response to the Blights.

Why? They don't know anything about the Wardens.

How did they manage to be given such freedom, to recruit criminals, to commit crimes in the name of fighting the darkspawn? No one knows about the Joining or why Grey Wardens are needed to stop a Blight.

Why does the right of Conscription exist if no one knows what makes the Wardens different from other skilled warriors?

It makes no sense.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 janvier 2011 - 06:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
It was a response to the Blights.

Why? They don't know anything about the Wardens.

How did they manage to be given such freedom, to recruit criminals, to commit crimes in the name of fighting the darkspawn? No one knows about the Joining or why Grey Wardens are needed to stop a Blight.

Why does the right of Conscription exist if no one knows what makes the Wardens different from other skilled warriors?

It makes no sense.

That's what most of those who argue in favor of Loghain say.

I don't know. They saw a Warden killing an archdemon and they didn't bother to ask how, so they can be prepared the next time. They thought they shoudl instead rely on a sect like order to do it.

Wardens are supposed to be the super-heroes of Thedas, do you question heroes?

[LadyDamodred]

Well, look back at the first Blight, which went on for almost 200 years before the Grey Wardens were created and ended it. I imagine all of Thedas was really super grateful for that, and in return, the Wardens were granted boons because of it, ie, Right of Conscription, etc....



When the second, third and fourth Blights arose, the same thing happened. Except this time, they were much shorter. I'm going to assume because now the Grey Wardens knew what they were doing and were better able to get a handle on the situation. Again, the boons they got would have been repeated and/or affirmed.



When you're facing the end of the world, you tend to give the people who can stop it whatever they want. And if they want criminals t recruit, eh, really, is that so high a cost? Obviously, it hasn't always held true, but for the most part it works.



And Riordan really does need a swift kick in the nuts for not taking five freaking minutes to pull the Warden and Alistair off to the side for a quick hushed discussion. I still don't think it would be a good idea to have Alistair and Loghain together, but you could keep them separated.

[Giggles_Manically]

The French used the French Foreign Legion at one time recruited any body into their ranks and used them to defend the nation.



Criminals, Drunks, run aways, etc were all allowed into the Legion to serve.

They were not facing a blight, so there is a historical precedent of military units that allowed anyone in. Its not about having a good heart, its about having the skills to fight.



As Riordian puts it:

"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."



That even describes a few of the origins right there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea but I don't think the French foreign legion can go into any prison and shout "Right of conscription". They are not an independent military unit, they are part of the French military and are supervised by the government.

It really makes little sense for no one to try and question the Warden on how and why they can do what they do. You'd think this is very pertinent and vital info, that I wouldn't want to be a secret, at least on the level of governments. It makes more sense for every nation to have its own Warden like unit.

[Corker]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

As Riordian puts it:
"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

That even describes a few of the origins right there.

At a guess, it's meant to describe *all* the origins, including... *squints* the cut Human Commoner ("common bandit").  I'd peg the Cousland as the traitor (that's what they get painted as, post mortem) and the city elf as the rebel.

[_Aine_]

Conscription: I am sure there weren't a ton of people jumping in line to be a Grey Warden with you know, death and shorter life, being lunch etc. It didn't get past them that the hero always died... to get the numbers they would need for a blight ( or to prepare for one) they probably HAD to conscript a decent number just to make numbers. Most people skilled at battle would be knights, or even more likely: criminals.

I have no problem with even *loving* bloody Alistair, and yet still seeing Loghain, warts and all as useful. Perhaps I am cold. Perhaps I am simply practical, I don't know. But if there was this *enormous* threat to my world, and in front of me is yet another yokel I could conscript to help?? Take the person! Let your purpose fuel your rage. Kill him later if you must, but in the end: Do you want to save the world or elevate your own opinion to the point of weakening your side? Do you love your hate (even righteous) enough to turn down skilled help? Yeah, it sucks, but the fact is: ass or not, he could be useful. Besides, the hissy fit was terribly unbecoming. I like Alistair, and he was my first romance but you can't whine the Archdemon to death. At least LISTEN to reason before you decide you would rather kill Loghain and possibly die yourself (or kill other Grey Wardens *cough*). A tactical decision shouldn't be made by feelings, rather by logic and strategy, in my opinion anyway.

(I do understand why people kill Loghain for what it is worth. I did several times for the very same reasons. I even enjoyed it.  I am just sharing the reasons I stopped doing so. As anything YMMV, but it does not *have* to be about your feelings for Alistair OR for Loghain. It *could* simply be a cold calculating way to survive the Blight. )

Modifié par shantisands, 25 janvier 2011 - 06:54 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Corker wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

As Riordian puts it:
"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

That even describes a few of the origins right there.

At a guess, it's meant to describe *all* the origins, including... *squints* the cut Human Commoner ("common bandit").  I'd peg the Cousland as the traitor (that's what they get painted as, post mortem) and the city elf as the rebel.

Yep.

Kinslayer= DN.
Carta Thug= DC (duh)
Blood Mage= Possibly the mage warden.
Rebels = HN or CE.
Traitors= HN. or any origin really from the POV of the populace and Loghain pre-landsmeet.

Kind of interesting really because no matter what you do in the origin you are one of those things to some people.

[iTofu]

It seems like some people already know that joining the Wardens could kill you. They don't know why, but they know.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

(snip) Revealing how Duncan had been recruited (if know) could have been a needed bucket of cold water to the face too. (snip)

How I wish they would've added that. Riordan telling Alistair about Duncan's recruitment as reasoning for Loghain's recruitment would've been fun to see, even if it didn't sway him.

sevalaricgirl wrote...

(snip) I kill Loghain every time because I see it as justice. (snip)

The irony is that would've been Loghain's view if he was in the Warden's shoes. In The Stolen Throne, Loghain was all about justice being done at any expense.

Sometimes I kill him, sometimes I don't, just depends on the relationships and role play of that particular playthrough. Emotions aside, the more logical choice for both the Wardens and Ferelden is to conscript Loghain with hardened Alistair and Anora on the throne. On the other hand, there is definitely a parallel between Alistair and Maric finding vengence and it's fun to play on that.

Modifié par iTofu, 25 janvier 2011 - 09:03 .

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
It was a response to the Blights.

Why? They don't know anything about the Wardens.

How did they manage to be given such freedom, to recruit criminals, to commit crimes in the name of fighting the darkspawn? No one knows about the Joining or why Grey Wardens are needed to stop a Blight.

Why does the right of Conscription exist if no one knows what makes the Wardens different from other skilled warriors?

It makes no sense.

People do know that no Blight has ever been defeated without Grey Wardens.  They don't know exactly why, but they know that much.  Loghain doubts this but he has his own reasons to not want to believe it.  They're given freedom because they only recruit the best, and because Blights represent existential threats to multiple nations, and obviously it is considered imperative to have a transnational elite force specialized in combatting them.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 janvier 2011 - 07:38 .