105 réponses à ce sujet

[testing123]

iTofu wrote...
On the other hand, there is definitely a paralel between Alistair and Maric finding vengence and it's fun to play on that. 

Yes, it's quite interesting to me that you can essentially play through the game as Alistair's very own 'Loghain' if you so choose, ultimately culminating in Loghain's own execution.  In this sense, the Landsmeet serves as the quite literal realization of your usurpation of Loghain's role in Ferelden.  To become him, you kill him.  It all plays out like one huge, vicious cycle. 

[Wereparrot]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Loghaine is a traitor, sold elves into slavery, pulled his troops and let the king die, took over the regency, allowed Howe to kidnap his daughter, and put a hit on Eamon and the wardens. That is plenty reason for Alistair to be upset. I kill Loghain every time because I see it as justice. Loghain wants you dead even til the end of his life. He called everyone in the landsmeet a traitor when in fact he was the traitor and if you don't duel him, more people will lose their lives because he won't step down and do what the nobility wants. He even wanted to end the bannorn leadership. For Rhiodan to even suggest it is lunacy considering that he's a stranger to Fereldon having lived in Orlais. Alistair barely knows him and the warden who makes the decision ultimately didn't know him at all. My wardens all sentence Loghain to death and allow Alistair to do it.

If Loghain intended Cailin's death then yes, he is a traitor. However, I see precious little evidence to suggest that this is the case. Despite Loghain's desertion, the battle was theoretically still winnable, and Cailin would still be alive.

Loghain only tried to take Eamon out because he was a threat. This much is only common sense.

The reason he calls you and Eamon traitors at the Landsmeet is because you are. Plotting to take down a reigning monarch is treason, no matter how you dress it. That I may not personally be planning to replace Anora is unbeknown to Loghain, but this would untimately render his accusations meaningless.

Also on a personal note: if I 'spare' Loghain only to have him die at Denerim (thereby not really sparing him at all), I still hold the blood price paid.

[mousestalker]

Two points about law and the Grey Wardens.

1. The right of conscription was only recently reaffirmed in Ferelden. Maric did that. Before Maric did it, the Right of Conscription hadn't existed in Ferelden since the days of Sophia Dryden.

2. Just because something is the law, doesn't mean it will be obeyed. Even in modern times the number of nations that obey their own laws is a very distinct minority. No nation complies completely with International Law. What gives the right of conscription teeth is each individual ruler's willingness to enforce it. If the Grey Wardens started recruiting a king's mistresses, odds are that right would be rescinded lickety-split.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...
2. Just because something is the law, doesn't mean it will be obeyed. Even in modern times the number of nations that obey their own laws is a very distinct minority. No nation complies completely with International Law. What gives the right of conscription teeth is each individual ruler's willingness to enforce it. If the Grey Wardens started recruiting a king's mistresses, odds are that right would be rescinded lickety-split.

That's why Duncan is reluctant to push it with the Couslands... until they have no other choice. 

I figure he only pushed it with Alistair because he was keeping his promise to Maric and/or he had Cailan's blessing to take on the Grand Cleric on behalf of the spare.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...
2. Just because something is the law, doesn't mean it will be obeyed. Even in modern times the number of nations that obey their own laws is a very distinct minority. No nation complies completely with International Law. What gives the right of conscription teeth is each individual ruler's willingness to enforce it. If the Grey Wardens started recruiting a king's mistresses, odds are that right would be rescinded lickety-split.

Obviously, that's the practical side of every law.
In theory however, the Wardens can recruit whoever they want and they, theoritically, have the force of law behind them.

And while kings and nobles might object, I do not see guards, sergeants, cell holders, small public officials...etc objecting. Duncan was able to force the issue on the Chantry vis a vis Alsitair, and on law enforcers in Denerim vs a vis Daveth.

[Giggles_Manically]

The guards also let Duncan take the CE and the DC away.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........



Anyhow, even if Loghain had directly killed Cailan, or meant to have him killed, I would not consider this treason, because I hold loyalty to the health and wellbeing of the nation over that to a single ruler or regime. And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.



So Loghain, had he intended to kill Cailan, would have done so out of duty to the country as paramont to duty to the king.

[Zjarcal]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........

Perhaps involving the tranny dwarf from the Pearl? :innocent:

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 janvier 2011 - 09:16 .

[Wereparrot]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.

Ah, the marriage. Yet more ammunition in the quest to besmirch Eamon's name.

[errant_knight]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........

Anyhow, even if Loghain had directly killed Cailan, or meant to have him killed, I would not consider this treason, because I hold loyalty to the health and wellbeing of the nation over that to a single ruler or regime. And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.

So Loghain, had he intended to kill Cailan, would have done so out of duty to the country as paramont to duty to the king.

Thing is, Alistair's reaction is about his perception, not another person's and especially not Loghain's.

[iTofu]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........

Anyhow, even if Loghain had directly killed Cailan, or meant to have him killed, I would not consider this treason, because I hold loyalty to the health and wellbeing of the nation over that to a single ruler or regime. And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.

So Loghain, had he intended to kill Cailan, would have done so out of duty to the country as paramont to duty to the king.

Regardless if Loghain's actions are forgivable or not, if he meant to kill the king then, by definition, he committed treason against the king.

I'm not arguing, but what action are you specifically pointing to as disasterous for Ferelden? The marriage or the alliance in general?

Modifié par iTofu, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:25 .

[Wereparrot]

iTofu wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........

Anyhow, even if Loghain had directly killed Cailan, or meant to have him killed, I would not consider this treason, because I hold loyalty to the health and wellbeing of the nation over that to a single ruler or regime. And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.

So Loghain, had he intended to kill Cailan, would have done so out of duty to the country as paramont to duty to the king.

Regardless if Loghain's actions are forgivable or not, if he meant to kill the king then, by definition, he committed treason against the king.

I'm not arguing, but what action are you specifically pointing to as disasterous for Ferelden?

*** MINOR SPOILER WARNING ***
Divorcing Anora for Orlesian Empress Celene? Or the Orlesian alliance in general?

Divorcing Anora for Celene. A move that would have ended in war. And you are right about treason.

[mousestalker]

Zjarcal wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........

Perhaps involving the tranny dwarf from the Pearl? :innocent:

I had a similar reaction. Who else is up for continuing to wallow in our own little pit of depravity?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Damn. Saw thread title and thought of something completely different..........

Perhaps involving the tranny dwarf from the Pearl? :innocent:

Amongst other things....

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

iTofu wrote...


I'm not arguing, but what action are you specifically pointing to as disasterous for Ferelden? The marriage or the alliance in general?

The marriage, mainly. Careful peace with Orlais is fine. Assimilation by Orlais before a single Chevalier even steps foot in Ferelden? Epic fail.

Loghain was correct: Celene's marriage to Cailan would have accomplished for Orlais what invasion and occupation could not.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.

Ah, the marriage. Yet more ammunition in the quest to besmirch Eamon's name.

??  There's no evidence that Eamon even knew about Cailan's plans.

[Elencia]

I got logain for the achieve, then went back and killed him

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

And Cailan, had the idiot lived, was on the brink of doing something VERY disasterous for Ferelden.

Ah, the marriage. Yet more ammunition in the quest to besmirch Eamon's name.

??  There's no evidence that Eamon even knew about Cailan's plans.

There is in Return to Ostagar. I don't think it explicitly links Eamon to Celene but if it was Eamon's advice that Cailin ditch Anora then it may also be Eamon's advice to marry Celene. It follows, because I find it hard to believe that any king, however naiive, woud endanger their realm so spectacularly without advice from a treacherous noble.

[iTofu]

Wereparrot wrote...

There is in Return to Ostagar. I don't think it explicitly links Eamon to Celene but if it was Eamon's advice that Cailin ditch Anora then it may also be Eamon's advice to marry Celene. It follows, because I find it hard to believe that any king, however naiive, woud endanger their realm so spectacularly without advice from a treacherous noble.

Honestly, when I read the letters I didn't see it that way. I saw it as Cailan taking Eamon's advice to find a solution to the problem of an heir and being seduced by the idea of marrying Celene. Given the nature of Orlesian politics and nobility, I don't think this would be a difficult task for Celene. Definitely not arguing, I just saw it differently...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The marriage, mainly. Careful peace with Orlais is fine. Assimilation by Orlais before a single Chevalier even steps foot in Ferelden? Epic fail.

Loghain was correct: Celene's marriage to Cailan would have accomplished for Orlais what invasion and occupation could not.

I know Gaider (or another dev?) said they originally were going to show Loghain learning of Cailan's plan at the beginning of the game, but then decided not to. Was the plot changed or just what we saw? Did Loghain already know that Cailan planned the marriage or did he learn when he returned to Ostagar?

Modifié par iTofu, 25 janvier 2011 - 10:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

He learned it in RtO.



You dont yell: TTTHHHHAAAAAAATTTT BBBAAASSSSSSTTTTTAAAAAAARRRDDD!!



Months after the fact.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

iTofu wrote...

. I know Gaider (or another dev?) said they originally were going to show Loghain learning of Cailan's plan, but then decided not to. Did Loghain already know that Cailan planned the marriage or did he learn when he returned to Ostagar?

 

That's debatable. Originally, Cailan's plans to marry Celene were supposed to be a big sub-plot originally, but got cut. As far as Loghain's knowledge, I think he was supposed to know about it in the original game.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...
There is in Return to Ostagar. I don't think it explicitly links Eamon to Celene but if it was Eamon's advice that Cailin ditch Anora then it may also be Eamon's advice to marry Celene. It follows, because I find it hard to believe that any king, however naiive, woud endanger their realm so spectacularly without advice from a treacherous noble.

The key word being may.  That's your interpretation, not actual evidence.  Not sure that it follows, either, since it would entail Eamon suggesting that Cailan make an extraordinarily unpopular marriage to a woman even older than Anora.

[errant_knight]

We don't know exactly who had what planned for what reason. If the intrigues and plot twists were intended to be anything like the rest of DA:O, we may not really have a handle on what was going on at all.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

For that minute and a half before Alistair killed him or died trying.

Nah I doubt Alistair would've done that if you managed to convince them to work together for whatever reasons.

For all his flaws Alistair is pretty good at keeping his word.

I don't think he'd give his word. I can't imagine him ever agreeing to be in a party with Loghain. He makes his argument for not being able to do so very well at the Landsmeet. I suspect that one of the reasons that was cut was that they couldn't figure out a believable way to have them both in the same party. There's no way the warden could convince him to do so. He hates you at that point. Given the opportunity, someone could probably convince him to fight the blight in another capacity somewhere else, but it wouldn't be the warden.

(husband)


But that is only because they put the Landsmeet off till the late game.   It was originally suppose to happen much earlier.   The longer you wait to resolve that, the more baggage Loghain accumulates.   If it was just a matter of Ostagar and Duncan I think it would be possible.   But when you throw in hiring Crow assasins, blaming the Wardens publically for what happened, supporting Howe when he's running wild, the alienage etc.   that ends up being too much a tipping point.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 janvier 2011 - 12:45 .

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I can't imagine him ever agreeing to be in a party with Loghain. He makes his argument for not being able to do so very well at the Landsmeet. I suspect that one of the reasons that was cut was that they couldn't figure out a believable way to have them both in the same party. There's no way the warden could convince him to do so. He hates you at that point. Given the opportunity, someone could probably convince him to fight the blight in another capacity somewhere else, but it wouldn't be the warden.

Actually, I think Riordan *might* have been able to talk sense into Alistair. He knows Duncan (probably better than Alistair), knows the Grey Wardens aren't all about sunshine and sparkles, and...surely the fact Loghain had had him tortured (or knowingly permitted it) would give Riordan some legitimate say in Loghain's fate.

Revealing how Duncan had been recruited (if know) could have been a needed bucket of cold water to the face too.

How about doing something with Loghain that didn't involve killing him OR making him a Grey Warden? It was making him a GW that Alistair protested most strongly. Perhaps they could have endured each other had Loghain not gone through the Joining.

Who knows, though. Only so many possibilities the game could give us, I guess...

(husband)

Yes except the game writers were also looking for a forced conflict to add to the drama of the story, and also give different endings for replay purposes.   Allowing the players to have the "Best of both worlds" or work out some kind of compromise takes away from that.