105 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

What sense should Riordan talk into Alistair?

The way the Landsmeet is done is so incredilby stupid that Alistair's reaction seems like breaking the fourth wall.

Riordan is a stranger, why trust him?
You've never been actually a part of the order, you've never learned about their (arbitrary and inconsistent) policies.
Why recruit an old man into the order and risk his death if you think he'd be a valuable asset? Use him now, punish him later.

AAAArrrrrghhh!

The Landsmeet is a perfect example of deliberately not discussing important decisions beforehand as a plot twist.

(husband)

Riodan is an expert an authority figure as far as knowing how the Wardens work.   Furthermore he is a peer of Duncans being about the same age and level of experience.    Alistair has more reason to trust him than anyone else except the Warden.

[Addai]

Eber wrote...

Corker wrote...

And better - at Eamon's, Riordan will ask to talk with you "after the Landsmeet." Yet, Loghain recruit or not, he dashes off to Ostagar first thing, so that you have to have *another* plot twisty reveal just before the DR. Because confirming that the other two Wardens knew what the heck they doing was less important than fifteen extra minutes on the road.

That plot twist is absurd. The idea that the Wardens would keep the fact that one of them is needed to kill the archdemon secret is ridiculous. It is excellent propaganda material for them that can be used to motivate their existance and need for support. It would also build on the hero hype and the effect on volounteers would be negligible, if at all negative. No one signs up expecting to be the one to end the next Blight, unless they have a hero complex in which case killing themselves is just icing on the cake.

"We keep it a secret for the same reason the Joining is kept secret. Who would become a Warden if they knew the end that might await them?"

I don't buy it. Not for a second. Keeping the Joining secret makes sense. This is just silly. Not to mention people might start picking up on the pattern if they keep burying the heroes next to each other.

(husband)

Ther reason for the secrecy I believe is for other things, like the fact the persons life will be cut short, they will be transformed into a ghoul or darkspawn if they don't die in the deep roads, they will loose most of their fertility etc.

[UrsulaCousland]

 See, at least how my HNs view it, the second they figure out that Logain is holding Howe's leash, he's a dead man, and it'll be a race to see who can kill him first.  

I too, struggled with the Landsmeet results when my husband spared Logain (he was the first in our house to do so). I just...argh.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...


(husband)

Yes except the game writers were also looking for a forced conflict to add to the drama of the story, and also give different endings for replay purposes.   Allowing the players to have the "Best of both worlds" or work out some kind of compromise takes away from that.

See, I don't like forced conflict very much (especially when it relies heavily on not allowing a PC a choice). And I don't see why allowing the best of both worlds would have reduced the replay value--you just get to add one more option where A&L are in the same party, for instance.

Werewolf/Dalish had several resolutions--Side with Zathrian (and kill him after if you want), side with werewolves, compromise.

Anvil? Side with Caridin/Branka, and if you choose Branka you can even convince her to see what she's become and change her mind about the Anvil.

The A&L thing had plenty of drama, but not allowing PCs to address important issues before, during or even after the Landsmeet (chase Alistair before he gets too far?) made it feel way too staged.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Mezzil wrote...

How can you trust him to know what he is doing? He wants you to recruit Loghain and only Loghain when there's far better options around. He says having more Wardens is important, but he never suggests to make anyone else a Warden.

Then he doesn't care that Alistair leaves which then ruins the point of recruiting Loghain. Even worst, Loghain could die in the Joining. Recruiting Loghain just puts you at risk of having you being left with only two Wardens.

yeah, that part always bugged me, which is one reason I wish they had executed Landsmeet and the whole "Loghain must join" scene. Because in a way, it makes your Warden take it on blind faith that Loghain will survive. If he doesn't, and say the Warden had Alistair executed, instead of gaining a potential warden, you lost two. I just think it could have been handled better, as far as giving reasons why or why not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
yeah, that part always bugged me, which is one reason I wish they had executed Landsmeet and the whole "Loghain must join" scene. Because in a way, it makes your Warden take it on blind faith that Loghain will survive. If he doesn't, and say the Warden had Alistair executed, instead of gaining a potential warden, you lost two. I just think it could have been handled better, as far as giving reasons why or why not.

My suspension of dibselief was ruined anyhow, when they didn't give me the option to emprison Alsitair and see what's to be done with him after Loghain's joining. So I pretended like there was no risk at all. The damage was already done and the whole thing felt artificial. 

That's what happens when you badly force a tough choice.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 janvier 2011 - 02:16 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
My suspension of dibselief was ruined anyhow, when they didn't give me the option to emprison Alsitair and see what's to be done with him after Loghain's joining. So I pretended like there was no risk at all. The damage was already done and the whole thing felt artificial. 

That's what happens when you badly force a tough choice.

Yeah, true. Or, being able to imprison or exile Loghain as opposed to simply executing him or having him join you. Like with the architect, they really didn't give you enough info either way in game or building up to that point. Just pick one based on limited information, and cross your fingers.

I also wished there had been some sort of backlash/mention of whatever choice you made, involving your companions. I mean, having Alistair executed and having Loghain join you should have elicited some sort of response from Wynne, at the very least, as well as Morrigan (who would probably congratulate you), or some conflict between Loghain and Leliana.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I also wished there had been some sort of backlash/mention of whatever choice you made, involving your companions. I mean, having Alistair executed and having Loghain join you should have elicited some sort of response from Wynne, at the very least, as well as Morrigan (who would probably congratulate you), or some conflict between Loghain and Leliana.

Urgh, 100 times *yes*. We get a few Loghain/NPC banters, but no one approaches the PC with any reaction whatsoever, nor can you speak to anyone about it. Not even Eamon mentions it, and Riordan comes across as completely uncaring (he'll speak up to save Loghain's life, but not Alistair's? wtf? Or is it too political for a GW to get involved now? <_<).

[sevalaricgirl]

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

What sense should Riordan talk into Alistair?

The way the Landsmeet is done is so incredilby stupid that Alistair's reaction seems like breaking the fourth wall.

Riordan is a stranger, why trust him?
You've never been actually a part of the order, you've never learned about their (arbitrary and inconsistent) policies.
Why recruit an old man into the order and risk his death if you think he'd be a valuable asset? Use him now, punish him later.

AAAArrrrrghhh!

The Landsmeet is a perfect example of deliberately not discussing important decisions beforehand as a plot twist.

(husband)

Riodan is an expert an authority figure as far as knowing how the Wardens work.   Furthermore he is a peer of Duncans being about the same age and level of experience.    Alistair has more reason to trust him than anyone else except the Warden.

Huh, why would Alistair trust someone he barely knew?  The warden makes the decision, not Alistair and the warden doesn't know Riordan from jack.  My wardens want to tell Riordan to go back to Orlais after what he said.  Not to mention that it was stupid for Riodan to not wait for reinforcements but to rush into hero role and try to kill the archdemon on his own.  My warden calls on the Dalish to help slay the dragon and only when it's disabled does she go in for the kill.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:42 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Urgh, 100 times *yes*. We get a few Loghain/NPC banters, but no one approaches the PC with any reaction whatsoever, nor can you speak to anyone about it. Not even Eamon mentions it, and Riordan comes across as completely uncaring (he'll speak up to save Loghain's life, but not Alistair's? wtf? Or is it too political for a GW to get involved now? <_<).

Yeah. No consequences/support from party members regarding Loghain's recruitment. Not a peep out of Eamon for ruining his meal ticket to power. Or Riordan over not being able to have as many Wardens as he would have liked. Like, all the game makes you really feel like is that you are simply switching tanks, a mechanical issue. But I think it was clear the game was rushed after Landsmeet.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Not to mention that it was stupid for Riodan to not wait for reinforcements but to rush into hero role and try to kill the archdemon on his own.  My warden calls on the Dalish to help slay the dragon and only when it's disabled does she go in for the kill.

Don't forget that the archdemon is already disabled by the time you reach it on the top of Fort Drakon. Riordan was the one who injured its wing severely enough that it crashed to the towertop and couldn't fly far. If he hadn't done that, it could have escaped.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yeah. No consequences/support from party members regarding Loghain's recruitment. Not a peep out of Eamon for ruining his meal ticket to power. Or Riordan over not being able to have as many Wardens as he would have liked. Like, all the game makes you really feel like is that you are simply switching tanks, a mechanical issue. But I think it was clear the game was rushed after Landsmeet.

Definitely agree with the bolded part, that's how it felt to me. I think I mentioned somewhere earlier that there's Toolset content for Ostagar (after the battle) that includes a conversation between Alistair and Loghain as they discuss Cailan's death. So having them in the same party might have been on the table once, but for some reason or other they went for the option we got. Maybe they were just running out of time/overbudget, who knows? :/

[jackkel dragon]

I'd say time/budget. There was a creature file for a Maric Fade dream for Loghain, the Return to Ostagar precursor dialogue, and a side quest based on Loghain. Even if time was available later, the Landsmeet was likely already moved to the end of the game and couldn't be quickly swapped back into the treaties segment.

[sevalaricgirl]

Not to mention that it was stupid for Riodan to not wait for reinforcements but to rush into hero role and try to kill the archdemon on his own.  My warden calls on the Dalish to help slay the dragon and only when it's disabled does she go in for the kill.[/quote]

Don't forget that the archdemon is already disabled by the time you reach it on the top of Fort Drakon. Riordan was the one who injured its wing severely enough that it crashed to the towertop and couldn't fly far. If he hadn't done that, it could have escaped.

I see it differently.  The archdemon is the "general" of his army.  He's not leaving the battlefield.  Alistair says that the wardens can sense the darkspawn and the darkspawn can sense the wardens.  The archdemon can therefore sense that there are more wardens and will want them dead. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I see it differently.  The archdemon is the "general" of his army.  He's not leaving the battlefield.  Alistair says that the wardens can sense the darkspawn and the darkspawn can sense the wardens.  The archdemon can therefore sense that there are more wardens and will want them dead. 

There's a difference to not leaving the battlefield and flying high enough above that no one would be able to attack it. Flight is an *enormous* advantage, and the archdemon isn't meant to be stupid. Only a moronic villain insists on killing the heroes personally when it has legions of lackeys to do the job for it.

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


(husband)

Yes except the game writers were also looking for a forced conflict to add to the drama of the story, and also give different endings for replay purposes.   Allowing the players to have the "Best of both worlds" or work out some kind of compromise takes away from that.

See, I don't like forced conflict very much (especially when it relies heavily on not allowing a PC a choice). And I don't see why allowing the best of both worlds would have reduced the replay value--you just get to add one more option where A&L are in the same party, for instance.

Werewolf/Dalish had several resolutions--Side with Zathrian (and kill him after if you want), side with werewolves, compromise.

Anvil? Side with Caridin/Branka, and if you choose Branka you can even convince her to see what she's become and change her mind about the Anvil.

The A&L thing had plenty of drama, but not allowing PCs to address important issues before, during or even after the Landsmeet (chase Alistair before he gets too far?) made it feel way too staged.

(husband)

Personally I would have allowed a mid ground solutions such imprisonment of Loghain, or busting Loghain down to the rank of knight but allowing him to fight for ferelden in the last battle like Teagan, and Eamon (role playing wise I would have put him in charge of building the defensive barriers, catapults etc.   I also think that recruitng as a personal followerhim should have given some sort of army stat boost (ability based upon him being a general), because as people in past threads pointed out there is no real reason game mechanics wise to recruit him without the respec mod you loose out compared to Allistair.



But on the previous comment, I do see some of what they tried to do is preventing "min/maxing"where a player tries to pick the ultimate "most bang for the buck" solution.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:31 .

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I see it differently.  The archdemon is the "general" of his army.  He's not leaving the battlefield.  Alistair says that the wardens can sense the darkspawn and the darkspawn can sense the wardens.  The archdemon can therefore sense that there are more wardens and will want them dead. 

There's a difference to not leaving the battlefield and flying high enough above that no one would be able to attack it. Flight is an *enormous* advantage, and the archdemon isn't meant to be stupid. Only a moronic villain insists on killing the heroes personally when it has legions of lackeys to do the job for it.

(husband)

Do you think this is a result of

1) The archdemon going crazy when the Architect awakened it with his joining?

2) or simply an idiot ball plot design?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I see it differently.  The archdemon is the "general" of his army.  He's not leaving the battlefield.  Alistair says that the wardens can sense the darkspawn and the darkspawn can sense the wardens.  The archdemon can therefore sense that there are more wardens and will want them dead. 

There's a difference to not leaving the battlefield and flying high enough above that no one would be able to attack it. Flight is an *enormous* advantage, and the archdemon isn't meant to be stupid. Only a moronic villain insists on killing the heroes personally when it has legions of lackeys to do the job for it.

(husband)

Do you think this is a result of

1) The archdemon going crazy when the Architect awakened it with his joining?

2) or simply an idiot ball plot design?

Just to be clear, the argument you're quoting follows on from sevalaricgirl saying Riordan is stupid to have attacked the archdemon single-handed. She said she took down the archdemon easily with Dalish aid, without any heroics.

I responded by saying that if Riordan hadn't crippled the archdemon with his attack, her Dalish reinforcements likely wouldn't be worth crap--the archdemon could have flown away (or out of reach) and wouldn't have been trapped atop Fort Drakon.

So I'm not saying the archdemon is stupid, I'm saying if Riordan hadn't crippled it sufficiently so the PC could engage it more or less on the ground THEN it would have been an idiot ball plot design for it to not simply fly overhead and, say, nuke the good guys from orbit.

[errant_knight]

I have to agree. If Riordan hadn't forced it onto the roof, they wouldn't have been able to get to it. His sacrifice gave them the chance they needed to slay it.

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I see it differently.  The archdemon is the "general" of his army.  He's not leaving the battlefield.  Alistair says that the wardens can sense the darkspawn and the darkspawn can sense the wardens.  The archdemon can therefore sense that there are more wardens and will want them dead. 

There's a difference to not leaving the battlefield and flying high enough above that no one would be able to attack it. Flight is an *enormous* advantage, and the archdemon isn't meant to be stupid. Only a moronic villain insists on killing the heroes personally when it has legions of lackeys to do the job for it.

(husband)

Do you think this is a result of

1) The archdemon going crazy when the Architect awakened it with his joining?

2) or simply an idiot ball plot design?

Just to be clear, the argument you're quoting follows on from sevalaricgirl saying Riordan is stupid to have attacked the archdemon single-handed. She said she took down the archdemon easily with Dalish aid, without any heroics.

I responded by saying that if Riordan hadn't crippled the archdemon with his attack, her Dalish reinforcements likely wouldn't be worth crap--the archdemon could have flown away (or out of reach) and wouldn't have been trapped atop Fort Drakon.

So I'm not saying the archdemon is stupid, I'm saying if Riordan hadn't crippled it sufficiently so the PC could engage it more or less on the ground THEN it would have been an idiot ball plot design for it to not simply fly overhead and, say, nuke the good guys from orbit.

(husband)


That seems like a reasonable explanation for why the plot is the way it is.   However if someone wanted to be nit picky they would say the area he attacked was on its back. not its wing.  If it crippled its stamina why were its hit point bar unaffected? (It starts with full hit points).


Since other arch demons have been killed in battle, (even though it might take a years and years to eventually off them).   I might suspect that like like other dragons and giant monsters that maybe they just like to mix it up once in a while.   Like any warrior chief  they may simply find hiding behind their army too dull to stand....

Modifié par Addai67, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:21 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)


That seems like a reasonable explanation for why the plot is the way it is.   However if someone wanted to be nit picky they would say the area he attacked was on its back. not its wing.  If it crippled its stamina why were its hit point bar unaffected? (It starts with full hit points).

I'd urge you to watch that cinematic again. When the archdemon tries to knock Riordan off by slamming its back against a tower, Riordan throws himself off its back and drives his sword into its wing in an attempt to stay on. His sword then drags a gaping hole all the way through one major membrane (that hole is still visible in the final battle). Riordan falls to his death at that point, and you can see the dragon falling in the background at the same time.

So Riordan not only gets an attack in on its back, he also disables a wing. This is why you see the archdemon only being able to leap small distances on Fort Drakan, where it crash-lands.

Since other arch demons have been killed in battle, (even though it might take a years and years to eventually off them).   I might suspect that like like other dragons and giant monsters that maybe they just like to mix it up once in a while.   Like any warrior chief  they may simply find hiding behind their army too dull to stand....

With the exception of the first, the reason the other Blights take so long may well be because it's so difficult to fight an archdemon (flying, taint-flame spewing dragon) on equal terms. Riordan said at the gates that for them to have a change of killing the archdemon they'd *have* to get to high ground and attempt to draw its attention, which sounds like the creatures aren't in the habit of just landing in any old place where they can be conveniently attacked.

[nos_astra]

It could have been done by someone else. The tactic is a good one, but why does Riordan do it himself? It's not like he had faced an Archdemon before.

[Wereparrot]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

iTofu wrote...


I'm not arguing, but what action are you specifically pointing to as disasterous for Ferelden? The marriage or the alliance in general?

The marriage, mainly. Careful peace with Orlais is fine. Assimilation by Orlais before a single Chevalier even steps foot in Ferelden? Epic fail.

Loghain was correct: Celene's marriage to Cailan would have accomplished for Orlais what invasion and occupation could not.

I'm sceptical of the whole assimilation thing. Rather, I think it more likely that a war of succession would have followed after either Cailin's or Celene's death (whichever outlived the other). Or maybe both would happen.

[LadyDamodred]

Addai67 wrote...
Since other arch demons have been killed in battle, (even though it might take a years and years to eventually off them).   I might suspect that like like other dragons and giant monsters that maybe they just like to mix it up once in a while.   Like any warrior chief  they may simply find hiding behind their army too dull to stand....

You mean coming down personally to kill Wardens?  Unlikely.  Don't forget in past Blights, The Grey Wardens had griffons.  They could take the fight to the archdemon in the air.

The next two Blights are going to definitely need to work on ways to ground the archdemons.  They should do a whole of recruiting in Nevarra.

*wants griffons*

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wereparrot wrote...

I'm sceptical of the whole assimilation thing. Rather, I think it more likely that a war of succession would have followed after either Cailin's or Celene's death (whichever outlived the other). Or maybe both would happen.

I am not. When two nations merge, the most powerful one dominates. Orlais would assimilate Ferelden in such a union. It would not be a union of equals, with ferelden bringing little to the table.