In cases like those, however, you don't need to have your PC know this (though they could always wonder at why Loghain chose such a slow-acting poison that Connor had time to realize what was happening and get possessed so that the demon could claim to save him if you want) but they are important for discussions on Loghain outside of the game.
How could you pick Anora?
Débuté par
Augustei
, janv. 25 2011 06:06
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#277
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:06
USArmyParatrooper
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Addai67 wrote...
The two are not related. Here's the link. The game was originally meant to revolve around a plot line where Cailan was going to ditch Anora for Empress Celene and Loghain found out about it. They cut that out, but some vestiges of the story line remain. One is that Loghain wanted to give Eamon a "time out" so that Cailan would be cut off from a supporter.
That's a link to another poster defending Loghain, which proves nothing. I asked for a link backing the claim that Loghain only intended to "lightly" poison Eamon and that he kept a cure on hand in case he got too bad. That was the claim that was made.
#278
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:07
Addai
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You didn't scroll down, I take it. The Gaider quote I pulled is from the same page. Here... try this one. You still have to scroll a bit. Here is a link to the specific post about Eamon.USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
The two are not related. Here's the link. The game was originally meant to revolve around a plot line where Cailan was going to ditch Anora for Empress Celene and Loghain found out about it. They cut that out, but some vestiges of the story line remain. One is that Loghain wanted to give Eamon a "time out" so that Cailan would be cut off from a supporter.
That's a link to another poster defending Loghain, which proves nothing. I asked for a link backing the claim that Loghain only intended to "lightly" poison Eamon and that he kept a cure on hand in case he got too bad. That was the claim that was made.
Modifié par Addai67, 07 février 2011 - 05:17 .
#279
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:12
USArmyParatrooper
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Sarah1281 wrote...
In cases like those, however, you don't need to have your PC know this (though they could always wonder at why Loghain chose such a slow-acting poison that Connor had time to realize what was happening and get possessed so that the demon could claim to save him if you want) but they are important for discussions on Loghain outside of the game.
Kind of like you gotta wonder why Vladimir Putin chose to poison Alexander Litvenko with such a slow acting poison like polonium.
#280
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:15
Sarah1281
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For the love of God, do you have to be condescending any time I say anything?!?! I wasn't even talking to you that time!USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In cases like those, however, you don't need to have your PC know this (though they could always wonder at why Loghain chose such a slow-acting poison that Connor had time to realize what was happening and get possessed so that the demon could claim to save him if you want) but they are important for discussions on Loghain outside of the game.
Kind of like you gotta wonder why Vladimir Putin chose to poison Alexander Litvenko with such a slow acting poison like polonium.
I don't give a damn about real-life poisons. What I said was that if you want your character to be able to make use of the Word of God information like the fact that Loghain wasn't planning on killing Eamon with the poison, then that was an example of how your character might come to that conclusion. Of course, your character could just as well consider the possiblity then reject it based on some precedent of the Orlesians slowly poisoning someone.
#281
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:18
Persephone
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Sarah1281 wrote...
For the love of God, do you have to be condescending any time I say anything?!?! I wasn't even talking to you that time!USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
In cases like those, however, you don't need to have your PC know this (though they could always wonder at why Loghain chose such a slow-acting poison that Connor had time to realize what was happening and get possessed so that the demon could claim to save him if you want) but they are important for discussions on Loghain outside of the game.
Kind of like you gotta wonder why Vladimir Putin chose to poison Alexander Litvenko with such a slow acting poison like polonium.
I don't give a damn about real-life poisons. What I said was that if you want your character to be able to make use of the Word of God information like the fact that Loghain wasn't planning on killing Eamon with the poison, then that was an example of how your character might come to that conclusion. Of course, your character could just as well consider the possiblity then reject it based on some precedent of the Orlesians slowly poisoning someone.
Even in my first playthrough, when I knew little to nothing of the lore, I wondered: That's not how you poison a man if you want him dead. There are fast acting poisons (As there were in Medieval times) that will kill their victims ASAP. Why keep the man alive like that? What's the use?
#282
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:24
HolyAvenger
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Incompetent poisoner? Wrong dose? Healing half-worked? Could be any number of reasons. It depends upon your interpretation of course, but there are any number of plausible conclusions that don't reflect well on Loghain (to say nothing of the fact my PCs don't think poisoning anyone for any reason for any effect doesn't reflect well on Loghain. Didn't stop my canon Warden recruiting him).
But yeah, the extra fluff is important for overarching Loghain discussion. Sorry for the temp thread hijack.
But yeah, the extra fluff is important for overarching Loghain discussion. Sorry for the temp thread hijack.
#283
Posté 07 février 2011 - 05:50
Napalm Jim
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I actually like Anora a lot and I never really gathered why so many folks dislike her with the passion that they do. I always surrendered to Cauthrien so I guess I never got the betrayal blues that some other folks wound up with. I'd say that, aside from the Alienage business, she makes for a great queen.
But as for the other topic dominating this thread, talking with Berwick (the elf spy guy) in the Redcliffe tavern reveals that he was hired to report about the arl prior to him getting sick...
Warden: So you know how this happened? Tell me now.
Berwick: I don't know anything about these creatures! When the arl got sick, I got scared that people would think that I was involved.
Berwick: But I swear I don't know anything about it! They sent me to watch. Maybe they knew the arl would get sick, I don't know.
So that means that the only thing that Berwick would've been able to report aside from "The arl is ill", considering that Berwick doesn't know squat about medicine, isn't even in the castle to see the arl at all, and is pretty antisocial in general, would have been:
"The arl has recovered."
OR
"The arl is dead."
If Loghain's intent was to just keep Eamon out of the picture for a while and then slip him a cure later (which is only ever mentioned in the Gaider post, never in the game), then he was going about it in a really sloppy manner. And really, meeting Jowan face-to-face before sending him to poison Eamon? Not the best strategy...
But as for the other topic dominating this thread, talking with Berwick (the elf spy guy) in the Redcliffe tavern reveals that he was hired to report about the arl prior to him getting sick...
Warden: So you know how this happened? Tell me now.
Berwick: I don't know anything about these creatures! When the arl got sick, I got scared that people would think that I was involved.
Berwick: But I swear I don't know anything about it! They sent me to watch. Maybe they knew the arl would get sick, I don't know.
So that means that the only thing that Berwick would've been able to report aside from "The arl is ill", considering that Berwick doesn't know squat about medicine, isn't even in the castle to see the arl at all, and is pretty antisocial in general, would have been:
"The arl has recovered."
OR
"The arl is dead."
If Loghain's intent was to just keep Eamon out of the picture for a while and then slip him a cure later (which is only ever mentioned in the Gaider post, never in the game), then he was going about it in a really sloppy manner. And really, meeting Jowan face-to-face before sending him to poison Eamon? Not the best strategy...
#284
Posté 07 février 2011 - 03:19
Augustei
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For my Import save I will have Anora and Alistair marry and spare loghain so he can die killing the archdemon, Redeeming himself and being remembered as the hero he originally was.
In the stolen throne, I got to like Loghain, he was my favourite charecter.. In The calling though he has a much more Minor role and seems alot more like the Loghain in the game, in The Stolen Throne he seems to be quite a different person.. Still recognisable traits though.
But yeah I didn't really like him in The Calling but he was awesome in The Stolen Throne
In the stolen throne, I got to like Loghain, he was my favourite charecter.. In The calling though he has a much more Minor role and seems alot more like the Loghain in the game, in The Stolen Throne he seems to be quite a different person.. Still recognisable traits though.
But yeah I didn't really like him in The Calling but he was awesome in The Stolen Throne
#285
Posté 07 février 2011 - 03:34
USArmyParatrooper
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Persephone wrote...
Even in my first playthrough, when I knew little to nothing of the lore, I wondered: That's not how you poison a man if you want him dead. There are fast acting poisons (As there were in Medieval times) that will kill their victims ASAP. Why keep the man alive like that? What's the use?
I'm just guessing here since I've never poisoned anyone, but it seems to me slower acting poisons would be much more difficult to pinpoint the source. In the case real life case I mentioned, I don't think anyone knows for sure where and how he was poisoned, though many suspect (as I do) Putin had his hand in it.
#286
Posté 07 février 2011 - 03:35
Xilizhra
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Canonically, Loghain never intended for Eamon to die. He was just supposed to be put out of the way.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least, however, if Jowan screwed up the dosage and did put Eamon in mortal danger. Because that's how Jowan rolls.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least, however, if Jowan screwed up the dosage and did put Eamon in mortal danger. Because that's how Jowan rolls.
#287
Posté 07 février 2011 - 03:36
USArmyParatrooper
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Sarah1281 wrote...
For the love of God, do you have to be condescending any time I say anything?!?! I wasn't even talking to you that time!
You're right, there was no need for my sarcasm. I apologize.
#288
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:10
HolyAvenger
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Xilizhra wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me in the least, however, if Jowan screwed up the dosage and did put Eamon in mortal danger. Because that's how Jowan rolls.
Its true. Poor, incompetent woobie. Enjoy Aeonar.
#289
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:14
ddv.rsa
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HolyAvenger wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
It wouldn't surprise me in the least, however, if Jowan screwed up the dosage and did put Eamon in mortal danger. Because that's how Jowan rolls.
Doesn't he always end up being executed?
#290
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:16
HolyAvenger
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I thought if you gave him back to the Circle they'd pack him off to the mage's prison?
#291
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:22
ddv.rsa
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Until now I didn't know you could. I thought you could either execute him or leave his fate to Arl Eamon. Who I assumed executes him.
#292
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:28
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You can talk Eamon into handing him over to the Circle but given that Jowan's a known blood mage Greagoir already wanted killed they'll probably kill him. Maybe make him a Tranquil because he didn't pass his Harrowing but that would be worse for him. If you tell Jowan to leave and never come back, he ends up helping refugees get out of the country.
#293
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:35
HolyAvenger
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Actually yeah, he'll probably be made Tranquil on reflection at the very least. I hadn't played the Magi Origin before my first playthrough.
#294
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:41
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Can't believe I missed that. From the wiki I see there's even a quest about him helping the refugees.
Looks like I've got something new to try on my next run.
Looks like I've got something new to try on my next run.
#295
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:42
Xilizhra
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This has made me realize that I really don't want to keep Jowan around, because I'd rather not have his mind be raped for the crime of an uncany ability to fail. Which means that I'll never be able to sacrifice Isolde, which means if I want to meet the desire demon, I'll need the mages' lyrium, which means that I can't have a blood mage playthrough who defiles the Ashes and keep Wynne at the same time. Drat.
#296
Posté 08 février 2011 - 12:45
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Xilizhra wrote...
This has made me realize that I really don't want to keep Jowan around, because I'd rather not have his mind be raped for the crime of an uncany ability to fail. Which means that I'll never be able to sacrifice Isolde, which means if I want to meet the desire demon, I'll need the mages' lyrium, which means that I can't have a blood mage playthrough who defiles the Ashes and keep Wynne at the same time. Drat.
Choices, choices...
#297
Posté 08 février 2011 - 01:14
Sarah1281
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Actually, you can seek out the Ashes before you're asked to. It doesn't really make much RP-ing sense (though you could probably find some reason) but seeing how awed Teagan and Isolde are that you just happen to be carrying around the answer to their prayers is pretty nice.
#298
Posté 08 février 2011 - 01:31
Xilizhra
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I was wondering if you could do that. So I could go to Haven right after the skeleton siege, do the ashes thing, then do Broken Circle and bring the mages back, then go to Redcliffe and save Connor/Eamon all at once?
#299
Posté 08 février 2011 - 01:52
Sarah1281
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Absolutely. The dialogue is a little different with Weylon and he has to explain what Genitivi is doing but you can do it.
#300
Posté 08 février 2011 - 02:11
Joy Divison
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Just want to bring this up because several people challenged me there is no guarantee that Loghain would not know of Arl Howe's trechery.
When the human noble speaks to Loghain outside his tent, Loghain refers to a conversation he and Cailan had about the deed and how Cailan would turn his army north after the battle. This, amongst other reasons, I thinks shows the only way he would not know is if he chose not to see.
KoP - I will say you give a good rationale behind Loghain's political thinking and I do not think the "betrayal" argument of Loghain at Ostagar is accurate. As it is my job to understand people's motivations, I can appreciate your perspective. I have to admit I don't quite see Loghain as the villain I did when first playing the game.
Nevertheless, if his reasons for not trusting the Wardens had foundation and his withdrawal was militarily defensible, I still believe his actions while serving as regent are damning and it for those reasons I find it difficult to empathize with him and why I usually kill him (which are different from Alistair's).
If the Bannorn were idiotic, it was because Loghain's regency prompted them to be myopic about their traditional rights. Most military men make miserable politicians - in the Loghain thread there was a good discussion how rare gifted soldier-politicians are - and I also hold Loghain responsible for venturing into a political position that was beyond his capabilities. He should have knew his daughter was a strong queen in her own right and just led Ferelden's armies. But I suspect the dictates of a sellable game made it preferable that Loghain assume the throne.
When the human noble speaks to Loghain outside his tent, Loghain refers to a conversation he and Cailan had about the deed and how Cailan would turn his army north after the battle. This, amongst other reasons, I thinks shows the only way he would not know is if he chose not to see.
KoP - I will say you give a good rationale behind Loghain's political thinking and I do not think the "betrayal" argument of Loghain at Ostagar is accurate. As it is my job to understand people's motivations, I can appreciate your perspective. I have to admit I don't quite see Loghain as the villain I did when first playing the game.
Nevertheless, if his reasons for not trusting the Wardens had foundation and his withdrawal was militarily defensible, I still believe his actions while serving as regent are damning and it for those reasons I find it difficult to empathize with him and why I usually kill him (which are different from Alistair's).
If the Bannorn were idiotic, it was because Loghain's regency prompted them to be myopic about their traditional rights. Most military men make miserable politicians - in the Loghain thread there was a good discussion how rare gifted soldier-politicians are - and I also hold Loghain responsible for venturing into a political position that was beyond his capabilities. He should have knew his daughter was a strong queen in her own right and just led Ferelden's armies. But I suspect the dictates of a sellable game made it preferable that Loghain assume the throne.
