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[USArmyParatrooper]

So talking to Genitivi's "aid" (and by talk, I mean killing) prior to going to Redcliff still unlocks New Haven?

[Xilizhra]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Absolutely. The dialogue is a little different with Weylon and he has to explain what Genitivi is doing but you can do it.

Awesomesauce. Thanks.

[Sarah1281]

Just want to bring this up because several people challenged me there is no guarantee that Loghain would not know of Arl Howe's trechery.



When the human noble speaks to Loghain outside his tent, Loghain refers to a conversation he and Cailan had about the deed and how Cailan would turn his army north after the battle. This, amongst other reasons, I thinks shows the only way he would not know is if he chose not to see.

For a HN, obviously. For a non-HN Cailan goes to his grave never hearing of it since he only learns about it from Duncan and the HN and if the Warden is not a HN Duncan was not at Highever when Howe attacked.

[Joy Divison]

Sarah1281 wrote...

For a HN, obviously. For a non-HN Cailan goes to his grave never hearing of it since he only learns about it from Duncan and the HN and if the Warden is not a HN Duncan was not at Highever when Howe attacked.

Loghain accepts Howe as his principle advisor in the HN orgin for the same reason he does in all the other origin stories: he does not care about who Howe is or what Howe does.  However much one might like Loghain as a character or his story, defending or minimizing his willing association with Howe requires a long leap of faith in contradiction to the direct evidence provided in the game.

However one might imagine a non HN origin story, it boils down to something like this:

Loghain: "Howe, fancy seeing you here at the Landsmeet."
Howe: "Yes my Lord. But since my takeover of Highever protocal demands I make an appearance."
Loghain: "Cool. While you're here, we need a new Arl of Denerim as Urien died at Ostagar, want the post?"
Howe: "I accept my Lord."

However one might want to change the semantics of that third line, the essence is the same: turning a blind eye to a highly irregular and brutal act as well as rewarding its perpetrator.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 février 2011 - 05:23 .

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...
Loghain accepts Howe as his principle advisor in the HN orgin for the same reason he does in all the other origin stories: he does not care about who Howe is or what Howe does.  However much one might like Loghain as a character or his story, defending or minimizing his willing association with Howe requires a long leap of faith in contradiction to the direct evidence provided in the game.

However one might imagine a non HN origin story, it boils down to something like this:

Loghain: "Howe, fancy seeing you here at the Landsmeet."
Howe: "Yes my Lord. But since my takeover of Highever protocal demands I make an appearance."
Loghain: "Cool. While you're here, we need a new Arl of Denerim as Urien died at Ostagar, want the post?"
Howe: "I accept my Lord."

However one might want to change the semantics of that third line, the essence is the same: turning a blind eye to a highly irregular and brutal act as well as rewarding its perpetrator.

It's a fact that Loghain does accept Howe as ally and confirms him as Teyrn of Highever and Arl of Denerim.  However, as you say you're ascribing motive to him that the game doesn't provide.  The other reality is that by the time Loghain gets back to Denerim, Howe already occupies Highever (as Cailan said, it would take an army to dislodge him), he might very well have already made it to Denerim and is occupying the arl's estate (speculation on my part but there would have been time for Howe to do so), and Loghain needs allies from somewhere.

Someone remind me- does Howe appear with Loghain in the gallery when he's confronting the lords and telling them he needs their armies??  I think it's only Anora but can't remember.  Anyway, after the bannorn refuse to accept Loghain's regency, he has even less maneuvering room with Howe.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Why is so hard to admit Loghain is a tyrant with no scruples?

[Addai]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Why is so hard to admit Loghain is a tyrant with no scruples?

You mean, why is it so hard to see the character exactly the way you do?

Gee I dunno, maybe because I have my own views?  Strange, I know!

[ddv.rsa]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Why is so hard to admit Loghain is a tyrant with no scruples?

I'll agree with you on that point, I've never been able to find anything redeeming about him. 

But on the other hand some people greatly admire him and are satisfied that all his misdeeds were done for the greater good. Different strokes for different folkes.

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Why is so hard to admit Loghain is a tyrant with no scruples?

Because he, like any great character, polarizes. And because you reducing his character to that does not make it true.

Some call Caesar a bloody tyrant who committed genocide. Others call him a genius, a visionary, the greatest of all Romans.

[Giggles_Manically]

Some also compare Loghain to Hitler and Putin.... I wonder who though......

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 08 février 2011 - 07:30 .

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Some also compare Loghain to Hitler and Putin....

Yes. I once was told "Sparing him is like sparing Hitler! I bet you're a Na*i!" And it was followed by the REAL reason "How could you betray Alistair like thaaaaaaaaaat?"

MEH! 

Modifié par Persephone, 08 février 2011 - 07:31 .

[Beerfish]

I 'accidentally' picked Anora last night in my latest play through. I guess I didn't realize how badly Alistair would fall apart if I made Loghain a Grey Warden. I assumed that both he and Anora would stick to their word about getting married. Alistair bailed so I let him hit the road. Though I did prevent him from getting the Axe.

[Persephone]

Beerfish wrote...

I 'accidentally' picked Anora last night in my latest play through. I guess I didn't realize how badly Alistair would fall apart if I made Loghain a Grey Warden. I assumed that both he and Anora would stick to their word about getting married. Alistair bailed so I let him hit the road. Though I did prevent him from getting the Axe.

He should, if he is hardened. Best outcome in the end, IMO.

[Giggles_Manically]

Persephone wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Some also compare Loghain to Hitler and Putin....

Yes. I once was told "Sparing him is like sparing Hitler! I bet you're a Na*i!" And it was followed by the REAL reason "How could you betray Alistair like thaaaaaaaaaat?"

MEH! 

Yep.

I said I liked Loghain on Facebook and was told I was an immoral monster who has mental issues.
Still went back to "HOW COULD YOU BE MEAN TO ALISTAIR!" 

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Some also compare Loghain to Hitler and Putin....

Yes. I once was told "Sparing him is like sparing Hitler! I bet you're a Na*i!" And it was followed by the REAL reason "How could you betray Alistair like thaaaaaaaaaat?"

MEH! 

Yep.

I said I liked Loghain on Facebook and was told I was an immoral monster who has mental issues.
Still went back to "HOW COULD YOU BE MEAN TO ALISTAIR!" 

Amen.

I like Alistair a lot. But not enough to kill someone. Never mind that I think that it's actually bad to to yield to Alistair's bloodlust. (For him psychologically as well as for Ferelden) Beginning one's reign in blood.... a bad omen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Some also compare Loghain to Hitler and Putin.... I wonder who though......

What I find equally weird is comparing Putin to Hitler.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Some also compare Loghain to Hitler and Putin.... I wonder who though......

What I find equally weird is comparing Putin to Hitler.

Oh come on KoP its so easy to see!

Anyone who you do not like and who makes descions must be similar to HITLER!
I mean its obvious eh? 

[Xilizhra]

Some call Caesar a bloody tyrant who committed genocide. Others call him a genius, a visionary, the greatest of all Romans.

I'd say both, assuming that "greatest" means "most influential."

As for Loghain, he's a paranoid fool and a joke of a politician. However, he's still an excellent general and I dislike the idea of killing him out of hand. Hence my saving him.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 février 2011 - 07:48 .

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

Some call Caesar a bloody tyrant who committed genocide. Others call him a genius, a visionary, the greatest of all Romans.

I'd say both, assuming that "greatest" means "most influential."

As for Loghain, he's a paranoid fool and a joke of a politician. However, he's still an excellent general and I dislike the idea of killing him out of hand. Hence my saving him.

Greatest not just meaning the most influential. He was a brilliant orator, strategist, general, writer etc. A genius. And I dunno if casualities of conquest can be called genocide. Was Alexander the Great guilty of genocide too?

Loghain certainly wasn't a paranoid fool, as his suspicions were well founded and once Cailan's plans are revealed, they are proven true.

He was however a heavy handed politician and should have remained a general.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not positive that he was guilty of genocide, since that seems to involve a more systematic attempt at exterminating/relocating one particular group, but he was definitely responsible for a great deal of death. And he may have been a genius, but he does seem to have been evil (not that his contemporaries in similar positions were any better; I'd likely support him by default, though I kind of preferred Mark Antony to Octavian).



As for Loghain... yes, Orlais wants to conquer Ferelden again; this assumption I have no problem with. However, the Grey Wardens were not, I think, acting as agents of Celene; they genuinely knew there was a Blight and wanted to stop it.

[Ferretinabun]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Can't believe I missed that. From the wiki I see there's even a quest about him helping the refugees.

Looks like I've got something new to try on my next run.

When you see Jowan in the Redcliffe cell, you can tell him to leave and not return, then tracking him down appeares as a Chantry board quest in Denerim. Then actually running into Jowan with his refugees is a random world map encounter. But due to a glitch of some sort, that encounter will never actually fire.
If you're on a PC you can get a mod to activate this encounter though...

[Persephone]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not positive that he was guilty of genocide, since that seems to involve a more systematic attempt at exterminating/relocating one particular group, but he was definitely responsible for a great deal of death. And he may have been a genius, but he does seem to have been evil (not that his contemporaries in similar positions were any better; I'd likely support him by default, though I kind of preferred Mark Antony to Octavian).

As for Loghain... yes, Orlais wants to conquer Ferelden again; this assumption I have no problem with. However, the Grey Wardens were not, I think, acting as agents of Celene; they genuinely knew there was a Blight and wanted to stop it.

Caesar evil? Not really. His clemency was legendary. Most of his killers were men he had once pardoned/raised to prominence. Not that he was an angel. But out of all the great generals, he is my favorite.

Agreed about the Wardens wanting to stop the Blight. However, I cannot say much about them, given that the only two we meet are Duncan and Riordan.

[Persephone]

Ferretinabun wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Can't believe I missed that. From the wiki I see there's even a quest about him helping the refugees.

Looks like I've got something new to try on my next run.

When you see Jowan in the Redcliffe cell, you can tell him to leave and not return, then tracking him down appeares as a Chantry board quest in Denerim. Then actually running into Jowan with his refugees is a random world map encounter. But due to a glitch of some sort, that encounter will never actually fire.
If you're on a PC you can get a mod to activate this encounter though...

Or use the console. It offers sweet closure. :happy:

[LobselVith8]

Persephone wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

I 'accidentally' picked Anora last night in my latest play through. I guess I didn't realize how badly Alistair would fall apart if I made Loghain a Grey Warden. I assumed that both he and Anora would stick to their word about getting married. Alistair bailed so I let him hit the road. Though I did prevent him from getting the Axe.

He should, if he is hardened. Best outcome in the end, IMO.

I agree. Loghain is still the Hero of River Dane to a number of people, and becoming a Grey Warden can only be a good thing for their reputation. Although I can understand Alistair's anger over what happened with Duncan, I see no reason not to give Loghain the same chance that Sten and Zevran are given. A personality hardened Alistair and Anora can do great things together - both individually have admirable goals. Given that Eamon also heads to Redcliffe soon after (without Tegan becoming the new Arl) it's clear that neither Alistair nor Anora have things well in hand.

[Xilizhra]

Agreed about the Wardens wanting to stop the Blight. However, I cannot say much about them, given that the only two we meet are Duncan and Riordan.

And that's where I say that Loghain was paranoid. It was reasonable for him to bar the Orlesians from entering the country; maybe even poisoning Eamon was understandable (not that I like it, but understandable). However, his attempt to wipe out the Grey Wardens and claim that they were responsible for Cailan's death was... not.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 février 2011 - 08:14 .