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[Corker]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I was merely addressing the debate about who gave a better rally speech following the landsmeet. A football team isn't going to be emboldened by a "We're going to win and here's how!" speech from someone who isn't on the team and never picked up a football.

My loving people,

We have been persuaded by some that are careful of our safety, to take heed how we commit our selves to armed multitudes, for fear of treachery; but I assure you I do not desire to live to distrust my faithful and loving people. Let tyrants fear. I have always so behaved myself that, under God, I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and good-will of my subjects; and therefore I am come amongst you, as you see, at this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved, in the midst and heat of the battle, to live and die amongst you all; to lay down for my God, and for my kingdom, and my people, my honour and my blood even, in the dust.

I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too, and think foul scorn that Parma or Spain, or any prince of Europe, should dare to invade the borders of my realm; to which rather than any dishonour shall grow by me, I myself will take up arms, I myself will be your general, judge, and rewarder of every one of your virtues in the field.

I know already, for your forwardness you have deserved rewards and crowns; and We do assure you in the word of a prince, they shall be duly paid you. In the mean time, my lieutenant general shall be in my stead, than whom never prince commanded a more noble or worthy subject; not doubting but by your obedience to my general, by your concord in the camp, and your valour in the field, we shall shortly have a famous victory over those enemies of my God, of my kingdom, and of my people.

-- Elizabeth I, address to her troops at Tilbury, in anticipation of the  landing of the Spanish Armada

Yeah.  That was a total waste of her time.  She should have stayed in London, because nobody wanted to hear that noise from a pampered royal.

Modifié par Corker, 25 janvier 2011 - 04:48 .

[Cutlass Jack]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

And while Anora does have some qualities redeming qualities for a leader, the fact that she's an immoral scoundrel who will lie, cheat and steal to satisfy her lust for power kind of ruins it for me.

That makes her sound more like Bhelen. I think she operates from a different point of view than 'lust for power.' She operates from the belief that she's truly the best person for the job. This is pretty a pretty accurate, if not terribly modest assessment. Even Alistair agrees with her.

She ultimately wants to better Ferlden. She only really plays dirty when forced. By her father, by you, or anyone else. Attempting to push her aside rubs her the wrong way. But if you actually listen to the words coming out of her mouth and take her opinions into account she plays fair.

She never once betrayed me because I did that. I even convinced her that killing her father was the right way to go, and she still backed me. And she really loves her father.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
And while Anora does have some qualities redeming qualities for a leader, the fact that she's an immoral scoundrel who will lie, cheat and steal to satisfy her lust for power kind of ruins it for me.

You mean like what most great leaders did and do?
Sign me up.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Lenimph wrote...

Anora is a two sided b*tch.  
That being said she's absolutely perfect to sit on the throne. 

She may be a B*tch and yes she does look for her interest first, but seeing that her sole purpose is to remain Queen for a nation not getting rich from the throne, or getting more influence as a politician, she wants to keep the throne to govern the nation and look for the people.

She may be a manipulator...but then again, all of us can be manipulators, I doubt any one waits to get what we want by time or just by life's good graces sitting idly. No, we do, manipulate and say things to get what we want, work harder, study harder, to be bettet than the other person to present an advantage that shows each of us is better than the one looking for the same thing we want. In that point of view I consider her far better ruler than alistair, since she really wants to keep the throne and do something about it instead of just waiting what others say.

For those and other reasons I prefer to leave Anora in the throne, yes...a flawed human but a natural leader non the less and let her decides alistair's fate. Prefer her than someone who even whines at the responsability of leading a nation and look after a country. Hardened or not hardened, an heir should not go around and say "NO" after he didn't even said a word to convince the landsmeet of his heritage, since it was the Warden. 

I respect her also for her determination, clevernes, her already leadership, her already acceptance from foreign nations like Orlais, and for the same trait as my L.I Morrigan, her survival skills in a politica arena.

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 25 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
And while Anora does have some qualities redeming qualities for a leader, the fact that she's an immoral scoundrel who will lie, cheat and steal to satisfy her lust for power kind of ruins it for me.

You mean like what most great leaders did and do?
Sign me up.

This is gonna start turing into my other topic by the sounds of it. Lol

[Zjarcal]

mousestalker wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Except if you think honesty and loyalty make for good values in a ruler rather than ruthless ambition.

I definitely don't.

I used to agree with this. But then I got to thinking. Who is th Paragon of honesty and loyalty? Dogs. And who is the bestest dog ever? Lassie

Lassie would have made an incredible World Dictator.

"Woof!"

"What's that, Lassie? North Korea has nukes! What should we do?"

"Bark!"

"Of course! Jimmy's Dad has a barn we could use and Susie is a wiz with sewing. She can make costumes. We can put on a show condemning them and they'll be all ashamed and stop what they're doing! That's brilliant!"

"Bow wow!"

"You saved the world again, Lassie!"

I'm quoting this because it was too awesome! 

[USArmyParatrooper]

Corker, you make a fair point and perhaps I was a bit hyperbolic. I'm just saying that, in the context of their speeches about defeating the blight, Alistair is at a huge advantage since he is already a renowned darkspawn slayer at the tip of the spear.

Cutless Jack, I think most of what you said is a reasonable impression to have. And that's one thing that makes the writing so good. They're like real people in that others can have differing opinions about them and their motives. The only part of what you said that I take issue with is her playing fair. She plays fair as long as you support a path that takes her to the thrown. That b*ch lied and told the landsmeet I kidnapped her by force after I put myself and three others in grave danger rescuing her. EDIT: And on that note, she attempted to criminalize the Grey Wardens - the very people that stand between Ferelden and complete anialation from the darkspawn horde.... all because of her quest for power.

KnightofPhoenix, I reject the notion that lack of scruples and lust for power are prerequisites for being a great leader. Ther are many, many horrible leaders who fit that description, and there are also great leaders who don't fit that bill. Nelson Mandela is one example.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 25 janvier 2011 - 09:50 .

[mousestalker]

@Zjarcal, Thank you!

As for the original point of the thread, how could a guy not pick Anora? She totally rocks the whole Hitchcosk 'cool blonde' vibe.

As for women, well you kind of have to go with Alistair. Even if you're romancing Zevran, he's not the sort who would be jealous of a blond Theirin.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
KnightofPhoenix, I reject the notion that lack of scruples and lust for power are prerequisites for being a great leader. Ther are many, many horrible leaders who fit that description, and there are also great leaders who don't fit that bill. Nelson Mandela is one example.

And for the sake of argument (something I see little evidence for, but I'll play along), let's assume that the number of great leaders / rulers who weren't rutheless are the same as those who were (I do not see Mandela as a great leader or ruler. A powerful figurehead for sure, but that's different). In which case one should look at something else to determine whether a leader is qualified or not.

What qualification Alistair has over Anora other than blood? And darkspawn slaying that shouldn't determine leadership anyways?

But this is another debate I am bored with and I don't really care anyways. Most likely it won't matter who we pick.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

mousestalker wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Except if you think honesty and loyalty make for good values in a ruler rather than ruthless ambition.

I definitely don't.

I used to agree with this. But then I got to thinking. Who is th Paragon of honesty and loyalty? Dogs. And who is the bestest dog ever? Lassie

Lassie would have made an incredible World Dictator.

"Woof!"

"What's that, Lassie? North Korea has nukes! What should we do?"

"Bark!"

"Of course! Jimmy's Dad has a barn we could use and Susie is a wiz with sewing. She can make costumes. We can put on a show condemning them and they'll be all ashamed and stop what they're doing! That's brilliant!"

"Bow wow!"

"You saved the world again, Lassie!"

That's just........too awesome for words.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Uuuhh...since when is giving an epic speech the sign of fitness to rule?

It may not be a sign of good leadership, but we both know that the cattle just love epic speeches, even if they don't make a whole lot of sense.

Oh yeah, silly me. Forgot about that. Maybe is Anora gave the same speech while wearing a string bikini and pumps, with a laser light show behind her, would have made the speech more acceptable, then.

[Cutlass Jack]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Cutless Jack, I think most of what you said is a reasonable impression to have. And that's one thing that makes the writing so good. They're like real people in that others can have differing opinions about them and their motives. The only part of what you said that I take issue with is her playing fair. She plays fair as long as you support a path that takes her to the thrown. That b*ch lied and told the landsmeet I kidnapped her by force after I put myself and three others in grave danger rescuing her. EDIT: And on that note, she attempted to criminalize the Grey Wardens - the very people that stand between Ferelden and complete anialation from the darkspawn horde.... all because of her quest for power. 

This goes back to what I said about listening to her. At the rescue, She's in disguise. She specifically tells you its because she can't risk going back to her father again. So if you blow the disguise two seconds later, she decides, (rather rightfully so) that you're an idiot, and has to think on her feet and create enough chaos to escape. On the other hand if you turn yourself in, she and your friends escape with no problem.

As for the Landsmeet, if you said you weren't going to support her, or you were going to kill her father, of course she wouldn't support you in return. Why would she? On the other hand if you say you will support her (or will do so if she marries you or Alistair) she'll back you 100% at the Meet. Further, if you say 'Justice must be served' she'll agree her father must be held accountable for his crimes.

That's why I find Anora so interesting. She can either be this great person who backs you fully, or appear to be a lying backstabbing ****. Completely depending on the choices you make.

[Sarah1281]

That b*ch lied and told the landsmeet I kidnapped her by force after I put myself and three others in grave danger rescuing her. EDIT: And on that note, she attempted to criminalize the Grey Wardens - the very people that stand between Ferelden and complete anialation from the darkspawn horde.... all because of her quest for power.

Okay, was this after you told her you were supporting Alistair or after you told her that even if every single other person in the room was perfectly fine with sparing Loghain's life that you would still insist on having his head? I really can't blame her for either. She's not delusional here. She has heard all about unhardened Alistair and doesn't know him personally but knows that on paper he has little to recommend him except his blood and, well, Cailan had that same blood but still rather failed as a king. She doesn't demand that her father live no matter what but just wants to know that, should everyone else decide to exile him, you would be willing to go along with an alternative that did not involve killing him. Even an ambiguous 'It's up to the Landsmeet' won't get her to support her father.



And it is SO not fair to blame her for the fact that no one actually knows that the GWs are literally necessary to end the Blight. If it weren't for that little tidbit that not even you know yet about how the GWs have to die while slaying the Archdemon then Ferelden could probably end the Blight just fine on their own without you, Alistair, or Riordan.

[Augustei]

She seems to know a bit about The Grey Wardens, Like how the Joining is fatal. How the hell did she know that? I thought that was meant to be a secret.. and so I made her take it to her early grave.. Even though she doesn't die but gets send to Fort Drakon. But since that was filled with darkspawn when I next went there I can only assume she is dead.



And like Alistair says, Its annoying that she is so much like her father as is one of those people who think they are the only ones who can get the job done

[Sarah1281]

XxDeonxX wrote...

She seems to know a bit about The Grey Wardens, Like how the Joining is fatal. How the hell did she know that? I thought that was meant to be a secret.. and so I made her take it to her early grave.. Even though she doesn't die but gets send to Fort Drakon. But since that was filled with darkspawn when I next went there I can only assume she is dead.

There is a theory that monarchs are told a little about the GWs and even if that's not a Warden policy, remember how much time Maric spent with GWs in the Calling and whenever Duncan came to visit. I can see him finding out, telling Cailan, and Cailan telling Anora. Besides, the concept of the Joining being fatal really doesn't seem like it would be a secret. Everyone at Ostagar, for instance, seems to know about Jory and Daveth as they've been around for a few weeks and many have heard of you. The three of you go off with Duncan and Alistair and then only you come back. Even if Anora and them don't know you had to drink darkspawn blood, it doesn't take a genius to look at the facts and realize that trying to become a GW could kill you.

Oh, and don't be ridiculous. Anora obviously survives the Blight or else she couldn't be queen when Alistair does the US.

And like Alistair says, Its annoying that she is so much like her father as is one of those people who think they are the only ones who can get the job done

Well...look who she's surrounded by. The banns have and will start a war over an apple tree. They are fighting a civil war during a Blight. And as for Eamon putting Alistair up to oppose her....well, would you trust the unhardened Alistiar that Anora's heard about from Cailan to rule the country? And given his lack of training with her years of it, on paper she appears the much better choice. On paper is really all Anora has to judge Alistair by.

[Giggles_Manically]

Can someone post Anora's solo slide?



I cant find it in my screenshot folders.

[Augustei]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Can someone post Anora's solo slide?

I cant find it in my screenshot folders.

Solo Slide? Say what now?

[Augustei]

Sarah1281 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

She seems to know a bit about The Grey Wardens, Like how the Joining is fatal. How the hell did she know that? I thought that was meant to be a secret.. and so I made her take it to her early grave.. Even though she doesn't die but gets send to Fort Drakon. But since that was filled with darkspawn when I next went there I can only assume she is dead.

There is a theory that monarchs are told a little about the GWs and even if that's not a Warden policy, remember how much time Maric spent with GWs in the Calling and whenever Duncan came to visit. I can see him finding out, telling Cailan, and Cailan telling Anora. Besides, the concept of the Joining being fatal really doesn't seem like it would be a secret. Everyone at Ostagar, for instance, seems to know about Jory and Daveth as they've been around for a few weeks and many have heard of you. The three of you go off with Duncan and Alistair and then only you come back. Even if Anora and them don't know you had to drink darkspawn blood, it doesn't take a genius to look at the facts and realize that trying to become a GW could kill you.

Oh, and don't be ridiculous. Anora obviously survives the Blight or else she couldn't be queen when Alistair does the US.

And like Alistair says, Its annoying that she is so much like her father as is one of those people who think they are the only ones who can get the job done

Well...look who she's surrounded by. The banns have and will start a war over an apple tree. They are fighting a civil war during a Blight. And as for Eamon putting Alistair up to oppose her....well, would you trust the unhardened Alistiar that Anora's heard about from Cailan to rule the country? And given his lack of training with her years of it, on paper she appears the much better choice. On paper is really all Anora has to judge Alistair by.

Her dying is just wishful thinking on my part I guess =P

Not all the Nobles are idiots though, Bryce Cousland and the Arl of South Reach aren't.

[Giggles_Manically]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Can someone post Anora's solo slide?

I cant find it in my screenshot folders.

Solo Slide? Say what now?

The epilouge slide for when she is on the throne.

[Augustei]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Can someone post Anora's solo slide?

I cant find it in my screenshot folders.

Solo Slide? Say what now?

The epilouge slide for when she is on the throne.

Ohh yeah she builds a University or something not noteworthy like that.
Certainly doesn't name an elven bann thats for sure. Which is another reason why she is bad

When you said Solo slide i pictured a slide show of Han Solo =D

[Sarah1281]

Ohh yeah she builds a University or something not noteworthy like that. Certainly doesn't name an elven bann thats for sure. Which is another reason why she is bad

Alistiar and Anora will both do that if and only if you are a CE and request your people get treated fairly for once. And the bugged epilogue slides reveal that to be an utter disaster ending in the murder of Shianni if she's chosen. Anora doesn't put an elf on her council, true, but I can't believe that you don't think Anora creating Ferelden's first university and trying to drag Ferelden into the modern era isn't noteworthy! That's significant for a lot more people than the elves who happen to live in Denerim.

[Lord_Anthonior]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The epilouge slide for when she is on the throne.

XxDeonxX wrote...
Ohh yeah she builds a University or something not noteworthy like that.
Certainly doesn't name an elven bann thats for sure. Which is another reason why she is bad

When you said Solo slide i pictured a slide show of Han Solo =D

The slide says: 

"If Anora is sole monarch then she builds a university and helps improve Ferelden's finances, but refuses
to marry as no man can live up to the standard set by her father."

I don't know how well the Queen of England did for their country regarding finances nor will I ever judge it, but Anora keeping the throne for herself doesn't sounds like a bad idea nor a far fetched in relation of the analogy of Ferelden-England.

Modifié par Lord_Anthonior, 26 janvier 2011 - 03:36 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ohh yeah she builds a University or something not noteworthy like that. Certainly doesn't name an elven bann thats for sure. Which is another reason why she is bad

Alistiar and Anora will both do that if and only if you are a CE and request your people get treated fairly for once. And the bugged epilogue slides reveal that to be an utter disaster ending in the murder of Shianni if she's chosen. Anora doesn't put an elf on her council, true, but I can't believe that you don't think Anora creating Ferelden's first university and trying to drag Ferelden into the modern era isn't noteworthy! That's significant for a lot more people than the elves who happen to live in Denerim.

But Sarah!

Alistair does not want the job or even know how to do it!

THAT MAKES HIM PERFECT FOR IT!
:pinched::pinched:

[LobselVith8]

No reason Anora and hardened Alistair can't accomplish it all (elves on royal court, the first university) together.

[Cutlass Jack]

XxDeonxX wrote...

She seems to know a bit about The Grey Wardens, Like how the Joining is fatal. How the hell did she know that? I thought that was meant to be a secret.. and so I made her take it to her early grave.

Its not like Loghain wasn't standing about 50ft away from where your joining was. It would have been hard for him not to know about the bodies being dragged off following the ritual and that you were the only survivor.

Its a poorly kept secret anyway.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 26 janvier 2011 - 04:24 .