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[HolyAvenger]

Ryzaki wrote...


Or you know you could just use common sense. Like how Anora was the one ruling the country before the blight and Alistair constantly tells you he's a bad leader.

But like that doesn't matter right? 

The whole character arc of Alistair's development ends in him being a better leader. Anora's past is cancelled out by the fact she didn't have enough backbone to stop being usurped by her own father. Pathetic.

[Sarah1281]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Oh and for the people citing the thing about Alistair not wanting the throne- some of my PCs believe that the people who should be entrusted with power and the trust not to abuse it are the ones who don't want it in the first place.

I really don't get that. I mean, yeah maybe those who are forced to have power are less likely to go mad with power but what indication is there that they'd automatically be good at their job or even put any effort into it since they hate it so much? 

The whole character arc of Alistair's development ends in him being a better leader. Anora's past is cancelled out by the fact she didn't have enough backbone to stop being usurped by her own father. Pathetic. 

You mean when her army was killed with Cailan at Ostagar, Loghain's army was completely fine, and Eamon had the next biggest army and he not only opposed her but was in a coma? Yes, it was truly pathetic how she didn't manage to singlehandedly take down an entire army. Alistair could have done it.

[Augustei]

Sarah1281 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Oh and for the people citing the thing about Alistair not wanting the throne- some of my PCs believe that the people who should be entrusted with power and the trust not to abuse it are the ones who don't want it in the first place.

I really don't get that. I mean, yeah maybe those who are forced to have power are less likely to go mad with power but what indication is there that they'd automatically be good at their job or even put any effort into it since they hate it so much? 

The whole character arc of Alistair's development ends in him being a better leader. Anora's past is cancelled out by the fact she didn't have enough backbone to stop being usurped by her own father. Pathetic. 

You mean when her army was killed with Cailan at Ostagar, Loghain's army was completely fine, and Eamon had the next biggest army and he not only opposed her but was in a coma? Yes, it was truly pathetic how she didn't manage to singlehandedly take down an entire army. Alistair could have done it.

The army at ostagar was not hers it was the army of a bunch of unified nobles. Loghains army is only Gwaren yet for some reason he was commanding the army of Denerim which the queen should have been doing

[Giggles_Manically]

Because he was in charge of the armies and Anora was not the recognized King.

Loghain called himself the regent and the soldiers followed him.



Who exactly is she going to ask for help?

[Sarah1281]

The army at ostagar was not hers it was the army of a bunch of unified nobles. Loghains army is only Gwaren yet for some reason he was commanding the army of Denerim which the queen should have been doing

What army of Denerim? The city guards? According to Kylon those were mostly bastard sons of nobles and Howe's men. The game tells you that Eamon has the second-largest army post-Ostagar. Loghain has the largest. The king did have soldiers himself. His soldiers died at Ostagar. The army that Anora SHOULD have been able to call on is dead. What's not to understand about Loghain having the biggest army and thus getting to call the shots? Gwaren soldiers don't answer to the monarch, they answer to the Teyrn. If that Teyrn isn't answering to the monarch then there are problems.

[HolyAvenger]

So she stood by doing nothing (not even leaving/escaping Denerim/any-freaking-thing) while her entire country and especially the city she lived in went to hell in a handbasket? You people are seriously trying to tell me that as a so-called beloved-of-her-people, genius queen she had no power whatsoever?



Yeah, she's definitely the iron-willed, decisive and all-action type I want on the throne...

[a1021]

i never make alistair king. grey wardens just aren't supposed to be kings. last time the wardens meddled in such affairs they were slaughtered and exiled. that's the best reason to let the queen be the queen.

[Ferretinabun]

HolyAvenger wrote...

So she stood by doing nothing (not even leaving/escaping Denerim/any-freaking-thing) while her entire country and especially the city she lived in went to hell in a handbasket? You people are seriously trying to tell me that as a so-called beloved-of-her-people, genius queen she had no power whatsoever?

Yeah, she's definitely the iron-willed, decisive and all-action type I want on the throne...

There's a difference between being a good leader and being omnipotent. However good you are, there are always going to be circumstances outside your control.
It's quite plausible that the combined armies of Cailan, Loghain and Eamon would have been enough to win at Ostagar, which is probably what Anora anticipated before the battle. I don't blame her for not forseeing her father's betrayal, which pretty much sent the country to Hell in a handbasket. Okay, her objective opinion of her father may be coloured by her love for him, but show me a sensible, sane person who doesn't do the same.
From there, what was she to do? Leave? That's political suicide. The only way for herself and her country to come through the crisis is to ride it out from the top, and try to steer things as best she could. That's a sign of a good leader. But then she's put on ice by Howe, who knows what a powerful figure she is.
Just because she's losing the current political game before you turn up in Denerim doesn't mean she's incompetant. She's just the victim of a treacherous coup.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

People have to make sacrifices. Personal happiness is quite low down on my things-that-are-important list when making decisions like that which affect the whole nation/society.

Well considering Anora is better for the country it ends up being a worthless sacrifice.

The elves might disagree with that assessment. Alistair's the only one who actually goes against tradition to place the elder of the Alienage on the royal court despite the scandal it causes. Anora has brilliant ideas, true, but what Alistair is willing to do will likely improve the lives of elves for generations by giving them a voice when even his father (who had two elven lovers) did nothing in comparison. That being said, I think Anora is a very brilliant leader, and I see no reason why a personality hardened Alistair with Anora couldn't accomplish all of their goals together.

[ejoslin]

while the elves probably would disagree, over all, Anora is better for the country. She strengthens the economy, improves education, makes trade agreements with neighboring countries... This stability actually is better for the elves as well. Alistair seems to deal with individuals, settling disputes, sneaking out and hanging out in taverns, while Anora is focused on the country as a whole.

[FellowerOfOdin]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I mean seriously she kills all the epic stuff leading up to the final battle.. Her speech most likely killed morale something fierce. The speech right before the final battle made me and most likely the other soldiers go from "We might win this" to "F#*k we are all gonna die"

If a Monarch cant give epic speeches why would people fight by their side. Even her very brief adressing to the landsmeet when she becomes queen would make me doubt my descision to suport her. Alistair's speech on the other hand before the final battle is awesome and a good morale booster. Making you think "Damn this is epic, We can do this! Hell yeah!"

Plus if she was truly a great queen and would be better then Alistair.. Then why the hell am I needed to get her on her own damn throne. Why am I needed to unify the nobility to fight the blight? If she is really a good queen then why the hell is half the country devistated by the blight?

Why Is there acts of Slavery being commited in the alienage which she doesn't even know about? Shes a terrible queen.

Are you seriously saying that all a good monarch should do is...holding good speeches? Oh gods :/

[Augustei]

In a game hells yes, I want an epic experience and an epic speech.. Not the Morale killing one she gives it's damn terrible.

Also a good Monarch has to initally have rights to the throne.. Which she doesn't as long as Alistair is alive

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 27 janvier 2011 - 02:45 .

[Sarah1281]

XxDeonxX wrote...

In a game hells yes, I want an epic experience and an epic speech.. Not the Morale killing one she gives it's damn terrible.

Also a good Monarch has to initally have rights to the throne.. Which she doesn't as long as Alistair is alive

Did you miss the part where Alistair doesn't have a legal right either because he is an unrecognized bastard and therefore since there is no actual heir it's just politics to establish who the new ruler is? Because it really seems that if it were so obvious that since Alistair is a Theirin he's the heir or because Anora was married to Cailan and Alistair's a bastard she's the heir that we wouldn't be called upon to make the decision in the first place. The heir would just automatically inherit once Loghain's out of the way.

[Sarah1281]

HolyAvenger wrote...



So she stood by doing nothing (not even leaving/escaping Denerim/any-freaking-thing) while her entire country and especially the city she lived in went to hell in a handbasket? You people are seriously trying to tell me that as a so-called beloved-of-her-people, genius queen she had no power whatsoever?

Since you seem to feel so strongly about this, perhaps you could explain to us what you feel Anora should have done? Fleeing the capital? I suppose she might have been able to sneak out but there's no guarantee and if she were caught she'd be kept under even closer watch and might not have been able to use Erlina to send messages or been imprisoned earlier. Say she did manage to get out. What should she have done and where should she have gone? Redcliffe. Eamon was the leader of the opposition movement once he woke up but what are the odds that anything short of Alistiar's sudden death that could in no way be linked to Anora would have convinced him to support her? Should she have tried to fracture the opposition by seeing who would support her and not Eamon and thus weakening the rebellion and making it not strong enough to take Loghain on?

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

while the elves probably would disagree, over all, Anora is better for the country. She strengthens the economy, improves education, makes trade agreements with neighboring countries... This stability actually is better for the elves as well. Alistair seems to deal with individuals, settling disputes, sneaking out and hanging out in taverns, while Anora is focused on the country as a whole.

Isn't that a reason to choose both? I don't see why Anora couldn't go through with her grand plans to restore the royal coffers and build a university simply because she's married to Alistair; it's not like the marriage to Anora ever stops him from placing the elven Elder on the royal court, after all. Anora is getting the royal coffers filled and has great plans to provide education, while Alistair wants to give the elves equality. I honestly don't see the problem here; two good people who can do more good together than they can apart.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

while the elves probably would disagree, over all, Anora is better for the country. She strengthens the economy, improves education, makes trade agreements with neighboring countries... This stability actually is better for the elves as well. Alistair seems to deal with individuals, settling disputes, sneaking out and hanging out in taverns, while Anora is focused on the country as a whole.

Isn't that a reason to choose both? I don't see why Anora couldn't go through with her grand plans to restore the royal coffers and build a university simply because she's married to Alistair; it's not like the marriage to Anora ever stops him from placing the elven Elder on the royal court, after all. Anora is getting the royal coffers filled and has great plans to provide education, while Alistair wants to give the elves equality. I honestly don't see the problem here; two good people who can do more good together than they can apart.

So who would you pick though if you could not marry them?

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

while the elves probably would disagree, over all, Anora is better for the country. She strengthens the economy, improves education, makes trade agreements with neighboring countries... This stability actually is better for the elves as well. Alistair seems to deal with individuals, settling disputes, sneaking out and hanging out in taverns, while Anora is focused on the country as a whole.

Isn't that a reason to choose both? I don't see why Anora couldn't go through with her grand plans to restore the royal coffers and build a university simply because she's married to Alistair; it's not like the marriage to Anora ever stops him from placing the elven Elder on the royal court, after all. Anora is getting the royal coffers filled and has great plans to provide education, while Alistair wants to give the elves equality. I honestly don't see the problem here; two good people who can do more good together than they can apart.

I often have them marry.  I think they balance each other out quite nicely.  

[mousestalker]

ejoslin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

while the elves probably would disagree, over all, Anora is better for the country. She strengthens the economy, improves education, makes trade agreements with neighboring countries... This stability actually is better for the elves as well. Alistair seems to deal with individuals, settling disputes, sneaking out and hanging out in taverns, while Anora is focused on the country as a whole.

Isn't that a reason to choose both? I don't see why Anora couldn't go through with her grand plans to restore the royal coffers and build a university simply because she's married to Alistair; it's not like the marriage to Anora ever stops him from placing the elven Elder on the royal court, after all. Anora is getting the royal coffers filled and has great plans to provide education, while Alistair wants to give the elves equality. I honestly don't see the problem here; two good people who can do more good together than they can apart.

I often have them marry.  I think they balance each other out quite nicely.  

That's my preferred choice. Since I rarely play Couslands, neither are very good romance/marital options. If Alistair is available, then him marrying Anora is an excellent way to reunite Ferelden and avert a civil war. It freezes out Arl Eamon as well, so win! 

Yes, Zevran is my preferred romance option. 

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

So who would you pick though if you could not marry them?

People tend to make choices based on who would benefit (Ferelden society vs. the plight of the elves tend to be the usual) so it varies from person to person. I actually asked Anora about being how well she would do to have a strong King besides her, but evidently being an elven mage would be frowned upon by the Landsmeet.

[Wereparrot]

HolyAvenger wrote...

So she stood by doing nothing (not even leaving/escaping Denerim/any-freaking-thing) while her entire country and especially the city she lived in went to hell in a handbasket? You people are seriously trying to tell me that as a so-called beloved-of-her-people, genius queen she had no power whatsoever?

Yeah, she's definitely the iron-willed, decisive and all-action type I want on the throne...

Can people stop criticising Anora for not standing up to Loghain? Oh, of course she could resist a domineering and manipulative man with his own agenda just by shouting 'I'm the Queen!' Like that matters. Anora needed you to take him down because she wasn't able to, a situation like that of Edward III and Roger Mortimer. I have given this example before; the point being that a monarch is not always in a position to control their subjects, through no fault of their own. Show her some more respect.  

[shatteredstar56]

Anora was good and bad. She did act like a child before her father, and then went to Howe, who is not at all subtle. She got herself locked up, and then we had to rescue her. She couldn't rally the nobles because we gave them someone else to rally around. In the end, she was a good queen for the human population. For the elf population, Alister and Anora are a good mix, since Alister deals well with people who are more like him. It's also good to have the Human Noble and Alister marry.

I respect Anora, but only slightly. She's too iron handed with her subjects, when all the elves want is a better life for themselves. She did get better things, again for the human subjects. I respect Alister as a king much more, because he's kind to all subjects and doesn't care where they come from. He also visits the Warden if he loves her, no matter the background.

[Sarah1281]

I respect Anora, but only slightly. She's too iron handed with her subjects, when all the elves want is a better life for themselves. She did get better things, again for the human subjects. I respect Alister as a king much more, because he's kind to all subjects and doesn't care where they come from. He also visits the Warden if he loves her, no matter the background.

Because she crushes the elves' riot or because they riot in the first place? By the point they get to rioting I think she did the only thing she could have although perhaps Alistair had some policies Anora didn't to cause a food shortage.

[KnightofPhoenix]

More likely due to different priorities and thus different ways to allocate resources, rather than administrative brilliance from Alistair.

Riots are still going to happen as long as the population is growing in a small space. Feeding them is only dealing with the symptoms, not the cause of the problem (ie Denerim overpopulation). So a large chunk of them should be relocated.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That b*ch lied and told the landsmeet I kidnapped her by force after I put myself and three others in grave danger rescuing her. EDIT: And on that note, she attempted to criminalize the Grey Wardens - the very people that stand between Ferelden and complete anialation from the darkspawn horde.... all because of her quest for power.

Okay, was this after you told her you were supporting Alistair or after you told her that even if every single other person in the room was perfectly fine with sparing Loghain's life that you would still insist on having his head? I really can't blame her for either. She's not delusional here. She has heard all about unhardened Alistair and doesn't know him personally but knows that on paper he has little to recommend him except his blood and, well, Cailan had that same blood but still rather failed as a king. She doesn't demand that her father live no matter what but just wants to know that, should everyone else decide to exile him, you would be willing to go along with an alternative that did not involve killing him. Even an ambiguous 'It's up to the Landsmeet' won't get her to support her father.

And it is SO not fair to blame her for the fact that no one actually knows that the GWs are literally necessary to end the Blight. If it weren't for that little tidbit that not even you know yet about how the GWs have to die while slaying the Archdemon then Ferelden could probably end the Blight just fine on their own without you, Alistair, or Riordan.

This was after ending the discussion with her about backing her for the thrown, sending a message that I'm supporting Alistair. In the landsmeet after she enters the room, "I believe I can speak for myself" she lies and says she was kidnapped.

So after I risked my life and the lives of my team rescueing her, she then tries to declare us criminals simply because I chose to support someone else.

It's true that she doesn't know that a grey warden is literally necessary to defeat the blight, but she has to know the grey wardens are the best shot they have. History has proven such, it's the only job of the grey wardens and your player character (and Alistair) had already become legendary darkspawn slayers. She's not dumb. Sne knows full well that, at the very least, defeating the blight would be much, much more difficult without you and your crew.

Not defeating the blight means mass slaughter and genicide of epic proportion across all of Ferelden. But hey, as long as she gets to keep her power that's no matter. She did earn it afterall.