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How could you pick Anora?


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#126
Wereparrot

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...


Let's put some of this in perspective. Arnora is Queen-Consort. I really need to stress this: Queen-Consort. Kings and Queens are not joint-rulers (though it can and did happen). The -consort half of the pair did not share their spouces power. In theory, at least. In practice, it may not have always been true.


Anora is Queen-Regnant at the time of the Landsmeet. You have the opportunity to put the illegitimate son of Maric on the throne as a userper.

It is your opinion that she is the legal ruler. If she is the illegal queen-regnant who isn't even ruling but has a regent then I really don't see how it matters. Unless the Landsmeet approves of her rule - and we know from the lack of a Landsmeet being called that that didn't - then it doesn't matter if she's the one technically sitting on the throne. It makes her the usurper that Alistair is apparently trying to usurp the throne from.


A queen having a regent does not stand for her not ruling. And I don't remember anyone objecting to Anora being the queen after Cailan dies. :unsure:

They may not have objected to her and they may have been willing to confirm her as a legal ruler but since a Landsmeet was not called, she was not the legal ruler. 


I thought the heir-apparent began their reign as soon as the old monarch died??

I don't know enough about how that works in England but this is Ferelden. A Landsmeet has to confirm a new ruler. A Landsmeet was called to confirm Cailan as ruler once Maric died and that's when people tried to put Bryce on the throne instead. And there wasn't actually an heir-apparent, remember? That's why there can be a succession crisis. Maybe Cailan should have named Anora his heir but he didn't.


It is how it works in England. But I would've thought that Anora was by default to be considered heir if Cailin died with no issue or other blood relative surviving.

Edit: I suspect the reason why Cailin never acknowledged Anora as heir was because he though he might still have kids with her (Celene situation notwithstanding).

Modifié par Wereparrot, 29 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .


#127
Sarah1281

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It is how it works in England. But I would've thought that Anora was by default to be considered heir if Cailin died with no issue or other blood relative surviving.

And yet if that were the case then wouldn't someone have mentioned something like that in the game? All Anora's side ever says is that she's proven herself competent as a queen and that Alistair came out of nowhere and wouldn't know what he was doing. Actually BEING Cailan's heir would be a much stronger claim and pretty much blow Alistair's claim out of the water.



And I know you already don't think he even has a claim in the first place, but the nobles seem to feel that he has a strong enough claim to challenge Anora's which if his claim is weak must mean hers is pretty weak as well. There's just no one there with a solid "I'm Cailan's legal heir!" type claim.

#128
Wereparrot

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Sarah1281 wrote...


It is how it works in England. But I would've thought that Anora was by default to be considered heir if Cailin died with no issue or other blood relative surviving.

And yet if that were the case then wouldn't someone have mentioned something like that in the game? All Anora's side ever says is that she's proven herself competent as a queen and that Alistair came out of nowhere and wouldn't know what he was doing. Actually BEING Cailan's heir would be a much stronger claim and pretty much blow Alistair's claim out of the water.

And I know you already don't think he even has a claim in the first place, but the nobles seem to feel that he has a strong enough claim to challenge Anora's which if his claim is weak must mean hers is pretty weak as well. There's just no one there with a solid "I'm Cailan's legal heir!" type claim.


See edit.

And yeah, neither of the two have a perfect claim. I think Bioware should've maybe enabled the HN to run as monarch, but there you go.

#129
Sarah1281

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Edit: I suspect the reason why Cailin never acknowledged Anora as heir was because he though he might still have kids with her (Celene situation notwithstanding).

If Cailan made Anora his heir while they were childless, would that prevent him from making his child his heir if they did have kids? I don't see why it would.



And yeah, neither of the two have a perfect claim. I think Bioware should've maybe enabled the HN to run as monarch, but there you go.

If the HN did throw his hat in the ring, he wouldn't have been called upon to choose himself as monarch and he'd need political backing. Who would have supported him? Anora's faction that wants her record of competence or Eamon's faction that wants a Theirin for as long as humanly possible?



I think the people who wanted Bryce as monarch (and we don't even know how many of them) were probably the same people who are supporting Anora now because the pro-Alistair people would see Cailan as a Theirin, too, and support him. They saw Bryce's proven competence over Cailan's inexperience and wanted him to rule. You would be seen as being the same as Alistair or Cailan: the son of a king with no experience ruling. Sure, collecting on those treaties is very impressive but Anora's the one who has been ruling for five years. I think they would stand with proven competence rather than the child of someone provably competent and who just has a lot of untested potential. Your military work won't mandate that you be a good ruler any more than Loghain's did for him.

#130
ArawnNox

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Sarah1281 wrote...

 Your military work won't mandate that you be a good ruler any more than Loghain's did for him.


It worked for Napoleon. ;)
Okay, I'll shut up now.

Modifié par ArawnNox, 29 janvier 2011 - 01:58 .


#131
Wereparrot

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Sarah1281 wrote...


Edit: I suspect the reason why Cailin never acknowledged Anora as heir was because he though he might still have kids with her (Celene situation notwithstanding).

If Cailan made Anora his heir while they were childless, would that prevent him from making his child his heir if they did have kids? I don't see why it would.


And yeah, neither of the two have a perfect claim. I think Bioware should've maybe enabled the HN to run as monarch, but there you go.

If the HN did throw his hat in the ring, he wouldn't have been called upon to choose himself as monarch and he'd need political backing. Who would have supported him? Anora's faction that wants her record of competence or Eamon's faction that wants a Theirin for as long as humanly possible?

I think the people who wanted Bryce as monarch (and we don't even know how many of them) were probably the same people who are supporting Anora now because the pro-Alistair people would see Cailan as a Theirin, too, and support him. They saw Bryce's proven competence over Cailan's inexperience and wanted him to rule. You would be seen as being the same as Alistair or Cailan: the son of a king with no experience ruling. Sure, collecting on those treaties is very impressive but Anora's the one who has been ruling for five years. I think they would stand with proven competence rather than the child of someone provably competent and who just has a lot of untested potential. Your military work won't mandate that you be a good ruler any more than Loghain's did for him.


Making Anora his heir would not have been in place of any child, but as a surety in case they didn't have any. Scondary heir if you will.

I'm pretty sure the HN would get some support-from Bann Alfstanna and South Reach, maybe Waking Sea if you choose the right words at the landsmeet.

#132
Sarah1281

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Alfstanna is from Waking Sea. Do you mean Dragon's Peak? South Reach always stands by the Wardens but Alistair would be representing them, too, so he could go either way.

#133
Eber

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Sarah1281 wrote...


And yeah, neither of the two have a perfect claim. I think Bioware should've maybe enabled the HN to run as monarch, but there you go.


If the HN did throw his hat in the ring, he wouldn't have been called upon to choose himself as monarch and he'd need political backing. Who would have supported him? Anora's faction that wants her record of competence or Eamon's faction that wants a Theirin for as long as humanly possible?

I think the people who wanted Bryce as monarch (and we don't even know how many of them) were probably the same people who are supporting Anora now because the pro-Alistair people would see Cailan as a Theirin, too, and support him. They saw Bryce's proven competence over Cailan's inexperience and wanted him to rule. You would be seen as being the same as Alistair or Cailan: the son of a king with no experience ruling. Sure, collecting on those treaties is very impressive but Anora's the one who has been ruling for five years. I think they would stand with proven competence rather than the child of someone provably competent and who just has a lot of untested potential. Your military work won't mandate that you be a good ruler any more than Loghain's did for him.


Is that all Eamon's faction want? A Theirin? I got the feeling Eamon represents the faction that wants a weak state and strong local lords given his talk about not giving up "our freedoms", "our [feudal] traditions" etc. A strong queen like Anora, who wants to collect funds to build state universities and what not, is an obvious threat to that agenda. Power is shifting from the Arl's and to the monarch and Eamon and his friends do not like it. Obviously a competent and powerhungry Cousland would be of no interest to this group but if the HN was dimwitted, willless and prepared to have Eamon fill the position as chancellor I could see an alliance in the making.

Modifié par Eber, 29 janvier 2011 - 02:16 .


#134
Wereparrot

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Alfstanna is from Waking Sea. Do you mean Dragon's Peak? South Reach always stands by the Wardens but Alistair would be representing them, too, so he could go either way.


I think the HN could convince all the nobles in the tavern. Is Dragon's Peak the one immediately to the left as you enter? If so, yeah I do mean him. It's late.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 29 janvier 2011 - 02:13 .


#135
Sarah1281

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Dragon's Peak is the one whose son you rescue from Howe's rack. Arl Wulff is from West Hill. But I think you may be setting yourself up for failure with that goal. Remember: Ceorlic is in that tavern. Image IPB

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 janvier 2011 - 02:15 .


#136
Wereparrot

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Dragon's Peak is the one whose son you rescue from Howe's rack. Arl Wulff is from West Hill. But I think you may be setting yourself up for failure with that goal. Remember: Ceorlic is in that tavern. Image IPB


How could I forget Ceorlic? Well, I did say it was late. Good night/good day. 

#137
PrinceLionheart

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Uuuhh...since when is giving an epic speech the sign of fitness to rule?


You have to be able to instill morale in your subjects. 

#138
Sarah1281

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Uuuhh...since when is giving an epic speech the sign of fitness to rule?


You have to be able to instill morale in your subjects. 

Anora's speaking voice sounds just fine. She just shouldn't shout at her subjects like she did in the speech. Maybe in the future she can leave the shouting-at-the-army to the generals who will be leading the army.

#139
Augustei

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Anora's Speaking voice is fine? "Be..FORE us stands the MIGHT of the DARKspawn HORDE!!

Its like she was tonedeaf

#140
Sarah1281

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Anora's Speaking voice is fine? "Be..FORE us stands the MIGHT of the DARKspawn HORDE!!
Its like she was tonedeaf

That is Anora's shouting voice. Her speaking voice is the one she uses when she's talking to the Warden and even when she gives a speech to a smaller crowd of people at the Landsmeet. And that is fine.

#141
Augustei

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Then she should never ever ever shout, ever

#142
Wereparrot

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Sarah1281 wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Uuuhh...since when is giving an epic speech the sign of fitness to rule?


You have to be able to instill morale in your subjects. 

Anora's speaking voice sounds just fine. She just shouldn't shout at her subjects like she did in the speech. Maybe in the future she can leave the shouting-at-the-army to the generals who will be leading the army.


I agree with this. Anora is not a military person and appears to have little interest in this area of monarchy. Considering this, I don't think we can criticise her based on one speech at Denerim.

Anyway, back to the potential Cousland claim on the throne. Now I think about it properly, I think it is a fairly huge plothole not to involve a Cousland claim. Anora seems to be the only one who recognises that her new husband might have a claim, because she limits his power and influence more so than Alistair limits the HNF's. I think that the HN would've had the support of most of the nobles, were the claim actually present in-game, possibly including Eamon himself, due to Bryce's reputation and that the HN would be known of if not known personally by many of them. Loghain would also presumably support it once he loses the Landsmeet. The status of Highever is irrelevant, because it cannot erase blood ties or reputation with the Landsmeet.

All this begs an interesting question. If the HNM marries Anora and speaks to Fergus at the coronation, one of the dialogue choices result in Fergus saying that he could only think of what Eleanor would say. But what would she say? Would she be exasperated at her son's lust for power, angry that the Theirin line is broken or pleased that the Cousland destiny might eventually be fulfilled?

#143
Augustei

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People seem to be taking my post a bit to seriously, All im really saying was I wanted an epic experience for my final battle and she took it away from me.



I dont care about anything else that she is qualified and not qualified to do. Lol

#144
USArmyParatrooper

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Persephone wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

No Compelling Evidence? The Warden was there when hit quit the field.. A Crime Punishable by death, And by doing so Commited Regicide.. I Crime Punishable by Death. He stopped a templar from doing his duty and let a Maleficar go free.. A Crime Punishable by death. Jowan is evidence of that event as well as the templar in howes estate
Alistair is right in demanding Loghains death. The fact that his crimes can be overlooked so easily is rediculous.

Thanks to my landsmeet, her political reasoning is anything but good.. the entire sided against her and her father, and that wasn't hard to acomplish.



The Warden was NOT there but at the Tower of Ishal, lighting a very delayed beacon. The Warden finds out about it through Morrigan & Flemeth and also knows nothing of the cutscene the player sees. Huh...regicide? He shape-shifted into an ogre, did he? Or wait....NO, it was actually Cailan's idiocy and fighting the front lines that got him crushed. Had Loghain charged on horses after (your) delayed signal, both Cailan and Duncan would still be dead. So every Warden who lets Jowan go rather than allow Eamon to execute him/deliver him to the mercy of the Chantry should be executed too? Alistair can demand whatever he likes, his motives however are personal and selfish. (He (Loghain) "killed" Duncan, OGZ! Alistair even makes a grab for the crown he is unfit to wear and doesn't want......... to sate his bloodlust....not qualifications for a king) 


Logain's plan all along was to do an about face and walk away at the decisive moment of the battle. Had there been no enemy in the tower and had the beacon not been late, what would the result have been? Logain's secret plan to turn and walk away at the decisive point of the battle, no difference.

#145
Giggles_Manically

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No.



Loghain was planning on MAYBE having to retreat.

When he saw all the darkspawn and the huge amount that kept coming though he had to leave.



His plan was to charge, until he saw all that there were to many darkspawn.

Hell he even told Cailan to stay put but oh no he could not miss out on tah glory.

#146
Augustei

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

No.

Loghain was planning on MAYBE having to retreat.
When he saw all the darkspawn and the huge amount that kept coming though he had to leave.

His plan was to charge, until he saw all that there were to many darkspawn.
Hell he even told Cailan to stay put but oh no he could not miss out on tah glory.


No he planned to leave the whole time, He most likely knew Cailan would fight on the front lines regardless. Otherwise why did his political ally disable highever and why did he get Jowan to take care of Eamon prior to the events of Ostagar? He planned it all along.
Jown wasn't teaching Conner for a day prior to the wardens arrival. He was teaching him for a while, And Loghain had him set free, imprisoned the templar and sent him to redcliffe to poison Eamon before Ostagar

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:28 .


#147
Giggles_Manically

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...........................................................

No not really.



He tried to tell Cailan to not go to the front lines he did it anyway.

Gaider said that Howe acted alone and was going to tell a story to Cailan about bandits or something.

He mad Eamon ill so he would not influence Cailan.



He left when the darkspawn overwhelmed the army and he KNEW he could not win.


#148
shatteredstar56

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Giggles_Manically wrote...


He made Eamon ill so he would not influence Cailan.



Cailan was dead for a while when Loghain went to poison Eamon. Eamon was ready to battle, and was heading out until the battle at Ostagar, at which point we can assume he fell ill.
He was awake and aware of events up to Ostagar, at which point we have to fill him in.
Eamon didn't have as much influence as anyone, Cailan wouldn't wait for him.

Coincidently, Renden Howe betrayed the Couslands shortly before Eamon fell ill, and Cailan was killed.

#149
KnightofPhoenix

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XxDeonxX wrote...
No he planned to leave the whole time,


No he didn't. Word of God said so. End of story.

Nothing in the game contradicts it.
He poisonned Eamon so he can be able to confront Cailan.
Loghain had nothing to do with what Howe did.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:44 .


#150
Riknas

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TL;DR: (The first set of paragraphs is about the main topic of Anora, the first line barrier is about Loghain, and the last is a conclusion)

I really feel we need to be more careful of our time line, because there's clearly discrepancies and different perspectives on how sinister Loghain may or may not have been. Similarly, the actions that you might take can really trip up how you feel about Anora, because of how stark her changes can be, from supporting you with the entirety of her being if she thinks you'll put her on the throne, to horribly, horribly, backstabbing you.

For what its worth, though the main topic clearly has shifted, I find the different developments of Alistair really determined how I felt about who to put on the throne. Before I knew I could harden our bastard prince, I saw a joint marriage as the best logical conclusion, and that I should spare Loghain to aid me in the final battle (it seemed fitting to me). But Alistair's childish reaction demanding that we kill him ("if that's what it takes, I'll become king to see justice done") as his only option to marry Anora, else he would prefer the throne for himself, I was horrified and realized he was in no way qualified to rule the nation.

However, I feel a hardened Alistair was the best choice to rule the nation (not including a joint marriage, again, it makes a great combo if you ask me...) as he had the will to learn the ways of court and his personality did win the day for him.

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That said, back to the time line... Let's look at it for the moment. Your character can theorize with the knight of redcliffe that Eamon was supposed to be poisoned before Cailan even died, and that Loghain might have been planning his grand rebellion for some time. This is supported later when Alistair (hardened) says (when asked about Anora taking the throne) that both Anora and Loghain simply had the ideas they were the only ones who knew how to do things right and, "everyone else, should just stay out of the way."

Keeping in mind that yourself and Duncan needed to travel from wherever they were to Ostagar, Jowan could have been captured relatively early or well after Cailan died, such as the case may be. Even then, it's possible that Loghain was planning on having someone poison Eamon for Maker knows how long, and Jowan's appearance was a convenient happening.

Arl Howe was clearly a scoundrel from the start, but when was it actually clarified whether or not we sided with Loghain from the start or later? Either way, Loghain's willingness to work with such an ambitious traitor is...sketchy, especially to keep on as a second in command. Again, there are also theories that Loghain made the deal with Howe from the very start (whenever the 'start' may be, who knows). Say what you will, Loghain was more than wiling to let Arl Howe torture individuals, and was able to set aside the rights of elves to fund his war. It was his own determination (and paranoia) to push aside the Grey Wardens and the Orlesians, refusing the idea of Alistair being part of the throne as well.

The book "A Game of Thrones" (Which I believe is confirmed as an influence to Gaider and Dragon Age), the Queen goes so far as to order the King not to fight in a tourney, knowing it would enrage him enough that he would most certainly join it. This was all part of her plan so that she could plan his demise in it. Loghain is a smart man, and if we assume he was rather sinister, he may have known that Cailan could be easily manipulated into taking the front lines, and done regardless.

Camera angles and timing (after Cailan declaring it would be a glorious moment) made Loghain seem much more villainous looking back when he says, "Yes....glorious to us all Cailan" (might be paraphrased). So, he could have been planning the retreat for sometime either as a possibility, or a definitive plan from the very start.

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Of course, personally, I believe the game was staged in an ambiguous fashion so that Loghain could be portrayed as both sinister and/or misunderstood. After the course of 4 or so full playthroughs, I've found myself going back and forth several times as to which Loghain was.