374 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
No he planned to leave the whole time,

No he didn't. Word of God said so. End of story.

Nothing in the game contradicts it.
He poisonned Eamon so he can be able to confront Cailan.
Loghain had nothing to do with what Howe did.

Your opinon.

Your overlooking what he did because you admire him as a charecter and want to justify him being kept alive I bet =P.

Seriously though, for his crimes pretty much all cases the only acceptable outcome back then would have been death.. His title cannot protect him the way people would like it to.
Regardless of his original intentions.. He commited Regicide.. Although not directly his actions did cause the Kings death.

He left his post. A soldier who does this would be imprisoned or more than likely killed.
he tortured nobles.. Nice, good luck getting landsmeet support when you threaten to torture them if they step out of line. Your Life expectancy drops like 50 years when you do that.

And he stopped a templar from doing his civic duty, and let a Maleficar go free. Now if he was allowed to remain on the throne and the chantry found out what he did, They would order him deposed or call an Exalted March upon Ferelden

[Augustei]

Swaying a bit off topic here though lol

[shatteredstar56]

XxDeonxX wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
No he planned to leave the whole time,

No he didn't. Word of God said so. End of story.

Nothing in the game contradicts it.
He poisonned Eamon so he can be able to confront Cailan.
Loghain had nothing to do with what Howe did.

Your opinon.

Your overlooking what he did because you admire him as a charecter and want to justify him being kept alive I bet =P.

Seriously though, for his crimes pretty much all cases the only acceptable outcome back then would have been death.. His title cannot protect him the way people would like it to.
Regardless of his original intentions.. He commited Regicide.. Although not directly his actions did cause the Kings death.

He left his post. A soldier who does this would be imprisoned or more than likely killed.
he tortured nobles.. Nice, good luck getting landsmeet support when you threaten to torture them if they step out of line. Your Life expectancy drops like 50 years when you do that.

And he stopped a templar from doing his civic duty, and let a Maleficar go free. Now if he was allowed to remain on the throne and the chantry found out what he did, They would order him deposed or call an Exalted March upon Ferelden

Not only that, but Zevran was hired in his name, even if Howe presented the solution.  Loghain went with it, just like he ran away.  It's like being present at a murder, your silent compliance makes you an accomplice.  Loghain introduced slavery in Ferelden, in the Alienage, where he knew no nobles would go, and he let Howe torture nobles and imprison his daughter, without saying a word otherwise. He must have known of Howe's treachery to the Couslands, but let him keep what he conquered and didn't bring justice to any of them.  He might have done what he did to keep peace, but that doesn't make it right.

Anora was better at keeping peace, though she's a bit ham handed with the elves.

[mousestalker]

Gemaphrodite wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Except if you think honesty and loyalty make for good values in a ruler rather than ruthless ambition.

I definitely don't.

I used to agree with this. But then I got to thinking. Who is th Paragon of honesty and loyalty? Dogs. And who is the bestest dog ever? Lassie

Lassie would have made an incredible World Dictator.

"Woof!"

"What's that, Lassie? North Korea has nukes! What should we do?"

"Bark!"

"Of course! Jimmy's Dad has a barn we could use and Susie is a wiz with sewing. She can make costumes. We can put on a show condemning them and they'll be all ashamed and stop what they're doing! That's brilliant!"

"Bow wow!"

"You saved the world again, Lassie!"

Mouse, this is my favourite forum thread post ever. EVER.

+500 approval.

TY. TYVM. <3

[KnightofPhoenix]

XxDeonxX wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
No he planned to leave the whole time,

No he didn't. Word of God said so. End of story.

Nothing in the game contradicts it.
He poisonned Eamon so he can be able to confront Cailan.
Loghain had nothing to do with what Howe did.

Your opinon.

No, word of God.

[Elhanan]

OP - I have chosen all royal options at some point. The one path when I tend to dismiss her completely is when she turns the Warden over to Ser Cauthrian. The majority of the time, I get her to marry Alistair, so they both rule, and we get Alistair making the speeches.

As for Loghain, he appears to be guilty of murder, IMO.

[Augustei]

I wish I could marry them. But its not possible to if Loghain is killed by Alistair to my knowledge.



And Alistair fighting Loghain makes for a far more epic experience then my warden fighting him

[mousestalker]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I wish I could marry them. But its not possible to if Loghain is killed by Alistair to my knowledge.

And Alistair fighting Loghain makes for a far more epic experience then my warden fighting him

If epic means glacially slow, then I'll agree with you. Sword and Shield vs Sword and Shield is rather tedious.

Besides, my city elves have more than one bone to pick with Teyrn Grumpypants Sourpuss.

[Elhanan]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I wish I could marry them. But its not possible to if Loghain is killed by Alistair to my knowledge.

And Alistair fighting Loghain makes for a far more epic experience then my warden fighting him

Here I disagree. As the Warden, and Alistair's advisor, possible Second, and friend, getting rid of Loghain is my resposibility towards him and Ferelden. And a battle between them takes forever.....

[ejoslin]

mousestalker wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I wish I could marry them. But its not possible to if Loghain is killed by Alistair to my knowledge.

And Alistair fighting Loghain makes for a far more epic experience then my warden fighting him

If epic means glacially slow, then I'll agree with you. Sword and Shield vs Sword and Shield is rather tedious.

Besides, my city elves have more than one bone to pick with Teyrn Grumpypants Sourpuss.

I agree with this.  If my character is not a DW rogue, I just send Zevran as my character's champion.  10 seconds later, I decide who lops off Loggy's head, if anyone.

[Elhanan]

mousestalker wrote...

If epic means glacially slow, then I'll agree with you. Sword and Shield vs Sword and Shield is rather tedious.

Besides, my city elves have more than one bone to pick with Teyrn Grumpypants Sourpuss.

This!

[Augustei]

yeah but Alistair is the one who generally really hates him and blames him for what happened to Ostagar. Like he let me have my turn of killing Arl Howe I let him get his bit of vengeance with Loghain. And the fact that he is the son of the King fighting the Usurper for his rightful place on the throne is a cool concept..

Doesn't normally take to long with my Alistair.. I have him with Marcis blade and Cailans armor and shield.

I move em around the room a bit though sort of rp a bit and move them up one of each side of the throne and take some SS's and then disable shield wall and have Loghain knock me over down the stairs..

Makes the fight more interesting then it really is

[Elhanan]

XxDeonxX wrote...

yeah but Alistair is the one who generally really hates him and blames him for what happened to Ostagar. Like he let me have my turn of killing Arl Howe I let him get his bit of vengeance with Loghain. And the fact that he is the son of the King fighting the Usurper for his rightful place on the throne is a cool concept..

Doesn't normally take to long with my Alistair.. I have him with Marcis blade and Cailans armor and shield.

I move em around the room a bit though sort of rp a bit and move them up one of each side of the throne and take some SS's and then disable shield wall and have Loghain knock me over down the stairs..

Makes the fight more interesting then it really is

heh! If I am playing a scoundrel, I often take the fight over to all the dead bodies from the prior fracus and get the loot; just toying with him a la' Pricess Bride, you see. As for the prior fracus; co-ink-a-dink, I am certain.....


 
*I did say I was playing a scoundrel*

As for Alistair hating him, he seems to have good reason. However, it is my responsibility upon many occasions to insure that he does not allow such hatred to spoil his future, as that seems to have happened to Loghain.

[Persephone]

XxDeonxX wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
No he planned to leave the whole time,

No he didn't. Word of God said so. End of story.

Nothing in the game contradicts it.
He poisonned Eamon so he can be able to confront Cailan.
Loghain had nothing to do with what Howe did.

Your opinon.

Your overlooking what he did because you admire him as a charecter and want to justify him being kept alive I bet =P.

Seriously though, for his crimes pretty much all cases the only acceptable outcome back then would have been death.. His title cannot protect him the way people would like it to.
Regardless of his original intentions.. He commited Regicide.. Although not directly his actions did cause the Kings death.

He left his post. A soldier who does this would be imprisoned or more than likely killed.
he tortured nobles.. Nice, good luck getting landsmeet support when you threaten to torture them if they step out of line. Your Life expectancy drops like 50 years when you do that.

And he stopped a templar from doing his civic duty, and let a Maleficar go free. Now if he was allowed to remain on the throne and the chantry found out what he did, They would order him deposed or call an Exalted March upon Ferelden

This again? Really?

He did not plan to retreat from the start.

The mages retreated before he did.

He knew nothing of the Cousland massacre.

He did not commit regicide. The stupid brat would have been dead either way, as your Warden lights the signal much too late.

Tactical retreat has been done before, better to save half the army than to lose it entirely.

The only person I know of who did torture nobles is Arl Howe.

My Wardens let Jowan go free too. To hell with the Chantry and its hypocrisy.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

This again? Really?

He did not plan to retreat from the start.

Yep; even the pro-Loghain folks said a good general would have such a plan in place. He may, or may not have intended to use said plan, but I believe he had one. 

The mages retreated before he did.

Uldred may have had something to do with this. But one may have been in the Tower with us, and Wynne was taking care of the injured.

He knew nothing of the Cousland massacre.

If one is playing a HN, he does.

He did not commit regicide. The stupid brat would have been dead either way, as your Warden lights the signal much too late.

The stupid brat may have survived, as the death occured after the Tower signal was lit. But Loghain was too far away by then. It does appear to be regicide, and Anora often mentions this at the Landsmeet. She wouldn't lie.....

Tactical retreat has been done before, better to save half the army than to lose it entirely.

I a guessing the dead half may have had objections.

The only person I know of who did torture nobles is Arl Howe.

Loghain's man; his respoinsibility.

My Wardens let Jowan go free too. To hell with the Chantry and its hypocrisy.

Depends on the Warden for me.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
No he planned to leave the whole time,

No he didn't. Word of God said so. End of story.

Nothing in the game contradicts it.
He poisonned Eamon so he can be able to confront Cailan.
Loghain had nothing to do with what Howe did.

Your opinon.

Your overlooking what he did because you admire him as a charecter and want to justify him being kept alive I bet =P.

Seriously though, for his crimes pretty much all cases the only acceptable outcome back then would have been death.. His title cannot protect him the way people would like it to.
Regardless of his original intentions.. He commited Regicide.. Although not directly his actions did cause the Kings death.

He left his post. A soldier who does this would be imprisoned or more than likely killed.
he tortured nobles.. Nice, good luck getting landsmeet support when you threaten to torture them if they step out of line. Your Life expectancy drops like 50 years when you do that.

And he stopped a templar from doing his civic duty, and let a Maleficar go free. Now if he was allowed to remain on the throne and the chantry found out what he did, They would order him deposed or call an Exalted March upon Ferelden

David Gaider did admit that Loghain wasn't privy to what happened with the Couslands and deciding at the last minute to leave the battle, which was supposedly to be more complicated because Empress Celene I was meant to actually be in Denerim at the time. (Does anyone know what role she would have played with the Warden or the storyline?) It does seem to clash with the line about Loghain's men finding catacombs in Ostagar, but that may merely be a red herring. It doesn't change what happened with the Alienage and the Tevinter mages, though.

[Wereparrot]

Elhanan wrote...

The stupid brat may have survived, as the death occured after the Tower signal was lit. But Loghain was too far away by then. It does appear to be regicide, and Anora often mentions this at the Landsmeet. She wouldn't lie.....

Still not regicide. Regicide amounts to killing the king personally/by order, which Loghain clearly didn't do. The crime in question is treason, of which regicide is only a part.

Loghain's man; his respoinsibility.

Howe violated Loghain's trust. No one is directly responsible for violation of trust.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I wish I could marry them. But its not possible to if Loghain is killed by Alistair to my knowledge.

And Alistair fighting Loghain makes for a far more epic experience then my warden fighting him

Here I disagree. As the Warden, and Alistair's advisor, possible Second, and friend, getting rid of Loghain is my resposibility towards him and Ferelden. And a battle between them takes forever.....

And he admits that the Warden's strength reminds him of Maric.

Persephone wrote...

This again? Really?

He did not plan to retreat from the start.

Considering how many darkspawn we see in the Deep Roads and how countless it looked at Ostagar, it's possible that the fires of the darkspawn soldiers seemed endless. Gaider does support the fact that Loghain certainly made the decision at that very moment. Gaider admitted that part of his reluctance to accept that it was indeed a Blight is because of Flemeth's warning that he would betray Maric, and he wanted to dismiss it because of that.

Persephone wrote...

The mages retreated before he did.

He knew nothing of the Cousland massacre.

There were only seven mages at Ostagar, thanks to the Chantry's anti-mage bulls**t...

Agreed. He wasn't privy to what Howe did to the Couslands. Seems he got away with it at first, unless the Warden is actually a Human Noble.

Persephone wrote...

He did not commit regicide. The stupid brat would have been dead either way, as your Warden lights the signal much too late.

Cailan's attempt to brush Queen Anora aside for Empress Celene I would have been a disaster of epic proportions.

Persephone wrote...

Tactical retreat has been done before, better to save half the army than to lose it entirely.

KoP make an outline of how it was possible for Loghain to see the darkspawn army from his vantage point, and how infinite it likely appeared from his view.

Persephone wrote...

My Wardens let Jowan go free too. To hell with the Chantry and its hypocrisy.

Jowan's bugged happy ending. Deserves better than being turned into an emotionless slave for the Chantry.

[Sarah1281]

Yep; even the pro-Loghain folks said a good general would have such a plan in place. He may, or may not have intended to use said plan, but I believe he had one.

That is because any general that is even remotely competent will always have a plan for retreat even if it looks like they're going to be able to crush their enemy. It makes for a lot less sudden and unexpected massacres of their own forces.

If one is playing a HN, he does.

Yes, he knows about it AFTER the fact. If playing HN he still didn't know before it happened though feel free to take issue with the fact that he still decides to ally with the next most powerful man in the nation when a civil war is threatening to tear the nation apart and what he believes to be an incursion of darkspawn are ravaging the land.

The stupid brat may have survived, as the death occured after the Tower signal was lit. But Loghain was too far away by then. It does appear to be regicide, and Anora often mentions this at the Landsmeet. She wouldn't lie.....

Yes, because Anora - her honesety aside - was there and so she'd know. We don't know how long after the beacon was lit that Cailan died. Even if Loghain had charged, we have no idea if he could have saved the idiot that insisted on fighting on the front lines.

I a guessing the dead half may have had objections.

So you're suggesting that the dead half would be pissed because if they had to die they'd rather each and every other soldier die along with them? How selfish and short-sighted of them.

[Augustei]

Pfft he so planned it from the start. I mean what type of great general does that much terrible battle planning.

"alright, chuck the archers on the front lines but give em swrods as well.. Have a bunch of dogs charge em.. when they die, we will charge em"

That was the worst battle plan ever.. If he was a great general with such a bad plan then he must have planned the revolution or w/e you want to call it from the start

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

This again? Really?

He did not plan to retreat from the start.

Yep; even the pro-Loghain folks said a good general would have such a plan in place. He may, or may not have intended to use said plan, but I believe he had one. 

The mages retreated before he did.

Uldred may have had something to do with this. But one may have been in the Tower with us, and Wynne was taking care of the injured.

He knew nothing of the Cousland massacre.

If one is playing a HN, he does.

He did not commit regicide. The stupid brat would have been dead either way, as your Warden lights the signal much too late.

The stupid brat may have survived, as the death occured after the Tower signal was lit. But Loghain was too far away by then. It does appear to be regicide, and Anora often mentions this at the Landsmeet. She wouldn't lie.....

Tactical retreat has been done before, better to save half the army than to lose it entirely.

I a guessing the dead half may have had objections.

The only person I know of who did torture nobles is Arl Howe.

Loghain's man; his respoinsibility.

My Wardens let Jowan go free too. To hell with the Chantry and its hypocrisy.

Depends on the Warden for me.

1) I was referring to the old "He was planning to leave, no matter what" idea.

2) I have played as a HN many times, he still knew nothing of it, nor had a hand in it. Case closed.

3) The brat wouldn't have survived as a few seconds after you light the beacon, he gets crushed by an ogre. Had Loghain charged on horses, Cailan and Duncan would still be dead. Anora wouldn't lie? Seriously? I respect the woman but C'MOOOOOOOON!

4) I don't believe much of what Wynne says, to be honest. And Uldred was not yet possessed at Ostagar.

5) As Loghain himself says, the currency of war is life. The dead half may be mourned, but that is what they and Cailan and Duncan are: Casualities of war. War is cruel.

6) If he is responsible for his allies, then the Warden surely is responsible for everything his/her allies do, even if they don't know about it, right?

7) My Wardens, even the goody goody Andrastians will not deliver Jowan to the Chantry or, even worse, to Eamon. Ever.

[shatteredstar56]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That is because any general that is even remotely competent will always have a plan for retreat even if it looks like they're going to be able to crush their enemy. It makes for a lot less sudden and unexpected massacres of their own forces.

Yes, he knows about it AFTER the fact. If playing HN he still didn't know before it happened though feel free to take issue with the fact that he still decides to ally with the next most powerful man in the nation when a civil war is threatening to tear the nation apart and what he believes to be an incursion of darkspawn are ravaging the land.

Yes, because Anora - her honesety aside - was there and so she'd know. We don't know how long after the beacon was lit that Cailan died. Even if Loghain had charged, we have no idea if he could have saved the idiot that insisted on fighting on the front lines.

So you're suggesting that the dead half would be pissed because if they had to die they'd rather each and every other soldier die along with them? How selfish and short-sighted of them.

Except for the Battle of Gettysburg. Any good general would have a plan, however, a great one shouldn't be ready to use it so quickly. Just because the signal fire was too late is a poor excuse for not charging when he saw fit. If he's so good a general, why did he rely on a signal fire, until it was too late?

He may have done the smart move and allied with Howe, but that doesn't mean it was right, and he took Howe as a personal advisor, AND gave him the lands that Bann Uriel left when he died.  That's a lot of rewards for someone who was just the Arl of Highever, for a little while anyway.  Not to mention that they locked Uriel's son away, even if he was a bastard.

Cailan probably couldn't have been saved, at least from a broken back.  Eric (from RtO) also mentioned that Cailan entrusted him with the key at the camp.  Cailan thought something fishy was up, and gave the key to the most important documents of the war, to his personal bodyguard, should something go wrong. Something did.  The guard outside Loghain's tent said that Loghain and the king were fighting about the queen. So Loghain could have posssibly suspected that Cailan might have meant to supplant Anora with the empress. Cailan didn't exactly have a head for politics, and probably would have done it, if he wanted to.

I'd be pissed if the guys I was fighting with decided to turn their backs and leave, especially if my blood was spilling on the ground.

[Sarah1281]

Except for the Battle of Gettysburg. Any good general would have a plan, however, a great one shouldn't be ready to use it so quickly. Just because the signal fire was too late is a poor excuse for not charging when he saw fit. If he's so good a general, why did he rely on a signal fire, until it was too late?

The point was that people are assuming that since Loghain had an exit strategy in place he must have been fully intending to leave the army the whole time, even before far more darkspawn showed up than expected and that's not true.

He may have done the smart move and allied with Howe, but that doesn't mean it was right, and he took Howe as a personal advisor, AND gave him the lands that Bann Uriel left when he died. That's a lot of rewards for someone who was just the Arl of Highever, for a little while anyway. Not to mention that they locked Uriel's son away, even if he was a bastard.

TERYN of Highever put him directly below Loghain with him being Teyrn as well as regent. Strengthening an ally is a good move even if Howe himself wasn't trustworthy. And what's morally right never really seems very important when a civil war is threatening to tear a nation apart while they're under attack from an outside force.

I'd be pissed if the guys I was fighting with decided to turn their backs and leave, especially if my blood was spilling on the ground.

Good for you. If you would have died no matter if they left or stayed because pretty much everyone would have died as there were just too many darkspawn then it doesn't matter how betrayed the soldiers feel, it just makes sense to leave.

[Giggles_Manically]

An exit strategy is always a needed part of a battle plan.

Battles can and do go awry, and if you dont have one... well then you provide a great example as to why armies get slaughtered in a retreat.