374 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

An exit strategy is always a needed part of a battle plan.
Battles can and do go awry, and if you dont have one... well then you provide a great example as to why armies get slaughtered in a retreat.

Doesn't Duncan say something like "Even the best laid plans may go awry...." ??

[mousestalker]

There are two perfectly adequate threads, to my knowledge, where the battle of ostagar has been hashed to death. The Hero of the River Dance is a deliberately ambiguous fellow, courtesy of Gaider et al.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...

There are two perfectly adequate threads, to my knowledge, where the battle of ostagar has been hashed to death.

More than 2 I am sure. Three threads that I remember were of high quality.

[Sjofn]

I think the main thing clouding the retreat issue is that Loghain looks so delighted to be abandoning everyone, rather than upset like he probably would be if he hadn't at least been semi-planing to screw over Cailin from the start, you know?



Anyhoo, I don't mind Anora's pre-battle speech at all, but I usually make Alistair marry her so it doesn't really come up. The only characters I've played that refuse to let her anywhere near the throne are my city elves and my one lady noble that married Alistair herself.

[Joy Divison]

What I don't understand about the pro-Logain argument:



1) The poisoning of Arm Eamon



2) The Tevinters and the Alienage



I can understand the "tactical withdrawal" argument (though this is weak; first year cadets would not have committed the military sins the alleged great general Loghain did, e.g. leave highly favorable defensible terrain for a clash in open field vs superior numbers)



I can understand the Howe's crimes =/= Loghain's crimes (but being regent, he is responsible for his adviser's conduct and thus is a weak argument)

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

What I don't understand about the pro-Logain argument:

1) The poisoning of Arm Eamon

2) The Tevinters and the Alienage

I can understand the "tactical withdrawal" argument (though this is weak; first year cadets would not have committed the military sins the alleged great general Loghain did, e.g. leave highly favorable defensible terrain for a clash in open field vs superior numbers)

I can understand the Howe's crimes =/= Loghain's crimes (but being regent, he is responsible for his adviser's conduct and thus is a weak argument)

KoP did address the tactical retreat in an entry he did to explain the large numbers and how Loghain could have seen it from his vantage point.

Gaider said that he was trying to isolate Eamon from Cailan by poisoning him (politically, I believe) and that it wasn't intended to kill him. (Originally, the RtO revelations we find about in the documents were supposed to play a role in the actual story as Celene I was supposed to be in Denerim.) Given that people speculate he'll die without the Urn of Sacred Ashes, it's really an issue of debate about whether he's actually dying or not. As for the situation with the Alienage, there isn't an explanation but profit to fund a civil war. Like Sten and Zevran, it's an issue of giving someone a chance to atone for what they've done, and Loghain is certainly willing to do that - even give his life to make amends.

[HolyAvenger]

Sooooo people are ok with poison as a political manoeuvre? Even if its not fatal? And slavery, for profit?



I don't get people's moral choices in this game.

[Joy Divison]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider said that he was trying to isolate Eamon from Cailan by poisoning him (politically, I believe) and that it wasn't intended to kill him. (Originally, the RtO revelations we find about in the documents were supposed to play a role in the actual story as Celene I was supposed to be in Denerim.) Given that people speculate he'll die without the Urn of Sacred Ashes, it's really an issue of debate about whether he's actually dying or not. As for the situation with the Alienage, there isn't an explanation but profit to fund a civil war. Like Sten and Zevran, it's an issue of giving someone a chance to atone for what they've done, and Loghain is certainly willing to do that - even give his life to make amends.

That's what I mean, I still don't *get* it.  Putting probably the second most popular noble in a coma during a crisis via poison is ok?  I fail to see how the dying part is relevant at all.

And I'm wondering how many CEs are willing to see how "deep" Loghain's character reagarding his busniess dealing with the Tevinters?

I don't doubt Loghain's desire to atone for his sins, not at all.  But his sins go *far* beyond the momentary lapse or reason Sten suffered or even Zevran's murders.  In most of my playthroughs, I don't kill Loghain because of Ostagar, I kill him because he poisons his political opponents, sells his own citizens to slavery, and turns a blind eye to what happens in Howe's dungeons.

[Cutlasskiwi]

How could I pick Anora?



Drunken Alistair save. 'Nuff said.

[Xilizhra]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Sooooo people are ok with poison as a political manoeuvre? Even if its not fatal? And slavery, for profit?

I don't get people's moral choices in this game.

We just don't think it deserves out of hand execution.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

1) I was referring to the old "He was planning to leave, no matter what" idea.

2) I have played as a HN many times, he still knew nothing of it, nor had a hand in it. Case closed.

3) The brat wouldn't have survived as a few seconds after you light the beacon, he gets crushed by an ogre. Had Loghain charged on horses, Cailan and Duncan would still be dead. Anora wouldn't lie? Seriously? I respect the woman but C'MOOOOOOOON!

4) I don't believe much of what Wynne says, to be honest. And Uldred was not yet possessed at Ostagar.

5) As Loghain himself says, the currency of war is life. The dead half may be mourned, but that is what they and Cailan and Duncan are: Casualities of war. War is cruel.

6) If he is responsible for his allies, then the Warden surely is responsible for everything his/her allies do, even if they don't know about it, right?

7) My Wardens, even the goody goody Andrastians will not deliver Jowan to the Chantry or, even worse, to Eamon. Ever.

1 - Gotcha! Agree there was a plan; disagree that Loghain was not leaning that way before the battle. He may not have fully decided, but the "... a glorious moment for us all" line appears sinister.

2 - Case re-opened. Whether or not Loghain knew beforhand, he had a chance then and there to help right the situation. But instead of killing the snake, he embraces Howe and rewards him.

4 - Kidding about Anora's so-called honesty, as she is Loghain's child, and will say whatever is required to gain the throne. But we have no real idea of how much time passed, as there had to be at least some time for the Darkspawn to regroup to reclaim the Tower, and wear down the Warden's. And if it was only moments as some suggest, then there seems little reason for Loghain to wait for the signal to retreat seeing the situation was so dire.

5 - War is cruel, but the actions Loghain takes after the battle to cover up the situation suggests a more devious motive than a simple retreat. From the perspective of the remaining Warden's, it is an act of murder.

6 - A leader is always responsible for those in his command; more so if they are immediate advisors like Howe and Gavorn.

7 - Jowain gets killed, released, or sent to the Circle depending upon each Warden's POV on the whiney robe wearing assassin wannabe. I rather wish Lily had also escaped, and would deliver the final decision her way,

Modifié par Elhanan, 02 février 2011 - 03:30 .

[Augustei]

"They're busy up to something in the Tower of Ishal"(Something like that) A few of the soldiers say.. it doesn't take long to chuck some wood down for a beacon.. He was so clearing out the rubble beneath so the darkspawn could easily take it over.. The beacon would not be lit and then the survivers could not claim he abandoned them because he was never given the signal to charge

[Persephone]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Sooooo people are ok with poison as a political manoeuvre? Even if its not fatal? And slavery, for profit?

I don't get people's moral choices in this game.

Never ever study history then. Because especially revered, great rulers weren't goody goody two shoes at all. Take Elizabeth I. She condoned slavery, she plotted like a pro.......Amazing woman!

[Persephone]

XxDeonxX wrote...

"They're busy up to something in the Tower of Ishal"(Something like that) A few of the soldiers say.. it doesn't take long to chuck some wood down for a beacon.. He was so clearing out the rubble beneath so the darkspawn could easily take it over.. The beacon would not be lit and then the survivers could not claim he abandoned them because he was never given the signal to charge

There was no conspiracy re: The Tower Of Ishal.

Isn't it sweet how these theories keep coming up again and again?

[Augustei]

Persephone wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

"They're busy up to something in the Tower of Ishal"(Something like that) A few of the soldiers say.. it doesn't take long to chuck some wood down for a beacon.. He was so clearing out the rubble beneath so the darkspawn could easily take it over.. The beacon would not be lit and then the survivers could not claim he abandoned them because he was never given the signal to charge

There was no conspiracy re: The Tower Of Ishal.

Isn't it sweet how these theories keep coming up again and again?

What evidence is there to say he didn't plan to retreat the whole time?

[Persephone]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Persephone wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

"They're busy up to something in the Tower of Ishal"(Something like that) A few of the soldiers say.. it doesn't take long to chuck some wood down for a beacon.. He was so clearing out the rubble beneath so the darkspawn could easily take it over.. The beacon would not be lit and then the survivers could not claim he abandoned them because he was never given the signal to charge

There was no conspiracy re: The Tower Of Ishal.

Isn't it sweet how these theories keep coming up again and again?

What evidence is there to say he didn't plan to retreat the whole time?

Word of God. End of story.

[Zjarcal]

A random note... it took me quite a while to understand what people meant by "Word of God". Months perhaps... 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 février 2011 - 04:54 .

[Persephone]

Zjarcal wrote...

A random note... it took me quite a while to understand what people meant by "Word of God". Months perhaps... 

LOL. I often wanted to ask "What IS this WoG you keep mentioning? And why does it know so much about the game?" :happy:

[mousestalker]

Persephone wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

A random note... it took me quite a while to understand what people meant by "Word of God". Months perhaps... 

LOL. I often wanted to ask "What IS this WoG you keep mentioning? And why does it know so much about the game?" :happy:

Wouldn't 'Word of the Maker' be more apropos anyway?

:innocent:

[Joy Divison]

Persephone wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Sooooo people are ok with poison as a political manoeuvre? Even if its not fatal? And slavery, for profit?

I don't get people's moral choices in this game.

Never ever study history then. Because especially revered, great rulers weren't goody goody two shoes at all. Take Elizabeth I. She condoned slavery, she plotted like a pro.......Amazing woman!

It's not so much morality for me.  Yes, Elizabeth condoned slavery and plotted, but she was not raised in a culture of Enlightenment postmodernism which now has decreed slavery as an unforgivable evil and that any politics asie from democracy is bad.  So I am not going to condemn her for such things.  Much like I really don;t have a problem with Bhelen at all.  In fact, I like Bhelen.

But the game strongly states that in Ferelden, slavery is an evil and tyrens have very strong rights/privileges in which assassination and other such Dwarven or even Orlesian political practices are not given the blind eye.

Loghain aspires to be a Caesar, but he does not have Caesar's gifts and Ferelden is not Rome 

As for Anora, she's not a nice person but she is a competant leader - I have a hard time just putting Alistair on the throne in a time of crisis.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 02 février 2011 - 06:38 .

[Addai]

Joy Divison wrote...
Loghain aspires to be a Caesar, but he does not have Caesar's gifts and Ferelden is not Rome 

I don't think he aspires to any such thing.  He sees everything he does as necessity in a time of war.  Per his banter with Morrigan, he doesn't even aspire to be a great general.

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain =/= Julius Caesar.

[Sarah1281]

HolyAvenger wrote...



Sooooo people are ok with poison as a political manoeuvre? Even if its not fatal? And slavery, for profit?



I don't get people's moral choices in this game.

For me, they're not moral choices. They're 'Let's try to get Ferelden through this Blight despite the fact that everyone would rather kill each other and argue over the throne and we don't have enough money to fund the army' choices.

XxDeonxX wrote...



"They're busy up to something in the Tower of Ishal"(Something like that) A few of the soldiers say.. it doesn't take long to chuck some wood down for a beacon.. He was so clearing out the rubble beneath so the darkspawn could easily take it over.. The beacon would not be lit and then the survivers could not claim he abandoned them because he was never given the signal to charge

...Now Loghain actually cleared out a path so the darkspawn could get in? *takes bets on how long it will be before someone realizes that Loghain paid off the Architect in the first place since we already know he sabotaged Maric's ship*

A random note... it took me quite a while to understand what people meant by "Word of God". Months perhaps...

Really? Why didn't you google it? Sure the first couple sites that come up are religious ones but the TVtropes entry is halfway down the first page if you didn't look there first.

[ejoslin]

Persephone wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

"They're busy up to something in the Tower of Ishal"(Something like that) A few of the soldiers say.. it doesn't take long to chuck some wood down for a beacon.. He was so clearing out the rubble beneath so the darkspawn could easily take it over.. The beacon would not be lit and then the survivers could not claim he abandoned them because he was never given the signal to charge

There was no conspiracy re: The Tower Of Ishal.

Isn't it sweet how these theories keep coming up again and again?

This particular one I believe has its roots in a comment that can be made in there with 30+ cunning.  When Alistair says something about the darkspawn, you can say something like, "Why would they be here at all?  Unless they knew the plan?"  DG says, however, that it was not Loghain's plan, so that's that.