663 réponses à ce sujet

[Spinifer]

Eurypterid wrote...

For those of you who have no issue with the DRM, hey, grab the game, play, and enjoy the hell out of it. It looks like it's going to be one helluva good game. For those of us that take issue with this kind of DRM, all we're asking for is enough information to decide whether or not the game is a buy or a pass.

Agreed 100%
Come on Bioware, give us some info.

[uglor808]

I agree with everything Eurypterid said.

[FieryDove]

No? Yes? Maybe? Please with sprinkles...



Need moar infoz.

[slimgrin]

Since I didn't pre-order, I'm not worried about being surprised with anything, but for those that did, it seems only fair they know what they are getting into.

[rmaine]

Dang. Now I even more wish DA2 for Mac would be on Steam. I use Little Snitch, which keeps random apps from calling home. Temporarily allowing the game to authenticate when I first install it is fine, but I'm *NOT* going to allow it to access the net for anything it wants whenever it wants. For Steam games, I go online to download and initially authenticate; then I take Steam offline.



Really glad to hear about the Mac version being released on day 1. Really sad about still being treated as second class in that we don't get Steam.

[AlanC9]

Seifz wrote...

You could easily obtain a DVD-ROM drive for less than $30 by the time NWN2 was released.  If you chose not to, you could still purchase a digital download of NWN2.  If you chose not to do either, you didn't play NWN2.  Simple.

Sure. Need to play DA2, and you need to hook your system up to the internet. Also simple.

Actually, I couldn't buy NWN2 DD at the time -- no broadband.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that required an Internet connection is the only reason so many of us are opposed to this DRM scheme.  That is not correct.  Many times we have expressed other problems with this DRM scheme.

No, I'm operating on the assumption that those other concerns seem even less relevant to me than the issues I mentioned. Actual inconvenience I talk about since inconvenience is relevant to me. But philosophical perspectives that I simply don't share  -- I presume you're talking about the same thing Eurypterid was -- obviously aren't part of my personal stance on DA2's DRM.

[BrunoB1971]

all i can say is that, thank god i did not pre-order on steam....hahahahahahahahahah



if the original op thinks that what he said was harsh drm's he never used steam from what i see...

[Seifz]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...

[quote]Seifz wrote...

You could easily obtain a DVD-ROM drive for less than $30 by the time NWN2 was released.  If you chose not to, you could still purchase a digital download of NWN2.  If you chose not to do either, you didn't play NWN2.  Simple.
[/quote]

Sure. Need to play DA2, and you need to hook your system up to the internet. Also simple.

Actually, I couldn't buy NWN2 DD at the time -- no broadband.[/quote]

What?  No.  Hooking a system up to the Internet is not always simple.  That's one of the two major deficiencies in your analogy.  (The other being what was previously mentioned.  That is, games were starting to use, 4, 5, 6 CDs and the move to DVDs was inevitable for practical reasons.)

[quote]You seem to be operating on the assumption that required an Internet connection is the only reason so many of us are opposed to this DRM scheme.  That is not correct.  Many times we have expressed other problems with this DRM scheme.[/quote]

No, I'm operating on the assumption that those other concerns seem even less relevant to me than the issues I mentioned. Actual inconvenience I talk about since inconvenience is relevant to me. But philosophical perspectives that I simply don't share  -- I presume you're talking about the same thing Eurypterid was -- obviously aren't part of my personal stance on DA2's DRM.[/quote]

Oh.  Well then why are you fighting us about this?  If you don't care, why keep arguing?  You have your opinion, we have ours.  We want information from BioWare/EA so that we can make an informed decision.  We also want BioWare/EA to know how we feel about specific DRM features.  That's it.  To be honest, I really don't think that a big company like BioWare/EA needs you to defend them against the evil people who want to know what they're paying for.  Really.

[Mage One]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sure. Need to play DA2, and you need to hook your system up to the internet. Also simple.

Actually, I couldn't buy NWN2 DD at the time -- no broadband.

[...]

No, I'm operating on the assumption that those other concerns seem even less relevant to me than the issues I mentioned. Actual inconvenience I talk about since inconvenience is relevant to me. But philosophical perspectives that I simply don't share  -- I presume you're talking about the same thing Eurypterid was -- obviously aren't part of my personal stance on DA2's DRM.

Not quite so simple, actually.  If you couldn't buy it through download you could buy the DVD.  Both were simply formats the game was offered in.  One or the other was necessary to be able to run the game itself.  DRM is not a format.  It is not a feature or a requirement.  The game is capable of running without it.  It is something the publisher adds in addition to the actual game, and in this case it adds two requirements beyond what is necessary to play the game to allow it to install and run:  An internet conection and their servers,  An internet connection alone won't do it.

I've never held to the notion that something isn't relevent until it inconveniences me.  No ofence, but that line of thought just never seemed prudent to  me.  Still, your stance is your ownn, and I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree.

[AlanC9]

[quote]Seifz wrote...


Sure. Need to play DA2, and you need to hook your system up to the internet. Also simple.

Actually, I couldn't buy NWN2 DD at the time -- no broadband.[/quote]

What?  No.  Hooking a system up to the Internet is not always simple.
[/quote]

And adding a DVD drive to your system is? I'm just using your definition of "simple" here. 500 Bioware points says that a greater percentage of users here would be able to connect their rig to the internet than would be competent to perform any sort of maintenance inside the case. I suppose you could pay someone to do it, but then we aren't talking about $30 anymore.

[quote]
 That's one of the two major deficiencies in your analogy.  (The other being what was previously mentioned.  That is, games were starting to use, 4, 5, 6 CDs and the move to DVDs was inevitable for practical reasons.)[/quote]

The difference isn't one that's relevant to my personal feelings about the DRM. I don't care why something was done, only what it means for me. It's intellectually interesting, but not relevant to my gaming experience. I guess that you missed slimgrin asking me to declare how I felt about it.

[quote]
Oh.  Well then why are you fighting us about this?  If you don't care, why keep arguing?  You have your opinion, we have ours.  We want information from BioWare/EA so that we can make an informed decision.  We also want BioWare/EA to know how we feel about specific DRM features.  That's it.  To be honest, I really don't think that a big company like BioWare/EA needs you to defend them against the evil people who want to know what they're paying for.  Really.
[/quote]

Where did you get the idea that I was opposing a request for more information?

[AlanC9]

Mage One wrote...
I've never held to the notion that something isn't relevent until it inconveniences me.  No ofence, but that line of thought just never seemed prudent to  me.  Still, your stance is your ownn, and I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree.

Inconveniences to others are important, sure; I made that a lot less clear in my posts than I should have. But the total amount of DRM inconvenience caused by DA2's scheme will be substantially less than that caused by DAOs scheme. For a majority of players DA2 will be more convenient. If you've got dialup it strikes me as about a wash. This leaves the folks with no connection at all; they do worse, sometimes much worse. But there just aren't that many of them.

I suppose having EA do something that's opposed to your philosophy is a kind of harm too. I just don't have any way to talk about that in any kind of rational fashion.

[Seifz]

AlanC9 wrote...
And adding a DVD drive to your system is? I'm just using your definition of "simple" here. 500 Bioware points says that a greater percentage of users here would be able to connect their rig to the internet than would be competent to perform any sort of maintenance inside the case. I suppose you could pay someone to do it, but then we aren't talking about $30 anymore.

1.  You can buy USB DVD drives that just plug in.  These were available very cheaply when NWN2 was released.
2.  An Internet connection might not even be possible.  If it is, it might be very costly.

Regardless, your analogy is still poor for the other reaons previously mentioned.

Where did you get the idea that I was opposing a request for more information?

You've been arguing with anyone who doesn't like the DRM in every thread for weeks, now.  Don't pretend that you haven't been.

[MartinPham]

I have some questions regarding Dragon Age 2's DRM, particularly with respect to Chris Priestly's comments initially made 18 days ago. Forgive me if they were asked previously.

With respect to the Periodic Online DRM

1) To confirm, the DRM isn't tied to the disc itself, but rather to a user account? So if a person bought the game and five mates wanted to play, they can create 5 user accounts under that same game?

2) With respect to "playing offline after verification", will users be given a time notification / warning to reverify online? Is this time delay affected if more users attached to the same game are playing? I.e. would the frequency of verification increase if 2-3 people, for example, played Dragon Age 2 at verious times during the day?

3) I note that as per the EULA it states: "Authentication is limited to one EA Account Per Serial Code. Does that mean my question preceding this is invalidated?

4) I also note as per the EULA that "This Software is not transferrable once Authenticated." Again, does that mean question (2) I've asked is invalidated?

5) I notice this DRM will blacklist certain software, such as Blacklisters. Can you confirm that this is only the case? If so, which software are affected?

6) I notice that the type of internet connection is not listed. Can you confirm the minimum requirements AS WELL AS whether those using a wireless connection / dongle / satellite will be affected more than those who are connected via a cable?

7) Which servers will verify / connect to one's computer for the basis of validation? Will they be directly from EA or outsourced to third parties, such as Amazon?


With respect to the Release Date Control

1) I notice that Chris Priestly have written that a "Release Date (does not use securom)" is implemented. However, in the EULA it does not state anything. Can someone please confirm which is true?

2) If a Release Control is implemented, what is the name of the DRM implementing this technology? Is it in-house? Is it outsourced?

3) If a Release Control is implemented, will EA/Bioware amend the EULA to reflect the changes in DRM implementation? If so, when?

4) Which servers will verify / connect to one's computer for the basis of validation? Will they be directly from EA or outsourced to third parties, such as Amazon?

5) With reference to "it completely removes itself after the game release date has passed": Does that mean that it won't install anything at all if a user bought a game after general release?


General Information

1) Will all of this information be made available to consumers even if they have not checked the website(s) for further DRM information?

[DanaScu]

Would be nice to get an update, even if the update is "We don't know yet."



I don't think there will be an update on the drm until the last minute possible.

[slimgrin]

DanaScu wrote...

Would be nice to get an update, even if the update is "We don't know yet."

It would also be fair to people who have commited to preordering. Their faith should be rewarded, should it not?

The game is out next month afterall. They must know what DRM scheme ships with hard copies by now, so let your customers know what they are buying, Bioware. This isn't too much to ask, is it?

 

[Mage One]

AlanC9 wrote...

Inconveniences to others are important, sure; I made that a lot less clear in my posts than I should have. But the total amount of DRM inconvenience caused by DA2's scheme will be substantially less than that caused by DAOs scheme. For a majority of players DA2 will be more convenient. If you've got dialup it strikes me as about a wash. This leaves the folks with no connection at all; they do worse, sometimes much worse. But there just aren't that many of them.

I suppose having EA do something that's opposed to your philosophy is a kind of harm too. I just don't have any way to talk about that in any kind of rational fashion.

I suppose that's up to debate.  I've never known anyone personally who's had a problem with a disc check.  The closest anyone I know has come to that has been friends who prefer not to have a physical product at all, which isn't quite the same thing.  I'm curious, what sorts of problems have disc checks caused, historically.  I remember someone else mentioning dic checks being problematic, but if reasons were given, I don't remember them.

Regardless, I've said I would be fine with a joint system, where the game would home phone if a disc wasn't in the drive.  I recognize going disc-free has its attractions.  I would argue, though, that there are likely more people who don't have an internet connection than you would think.  Either way, I could try to explain my philosophy in a clear, rational manner, but I think that might be veering off subject.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

is it bad that all I can think of in this thread is "Assuming Direct Control" like that A.I. in the movie I,Robot?

[mcneil_1]

MartinPham wrote...

I have some questions regarding Dragon Age 2's DRM, particularly with respect to Chris Priestly's comments initially made 18 days ago. Forgive me if they were asked previously.
With respect to the Release Date Control

1) I notice that Chris Priestly have written that a "Release Date (does not use securom)" is implemented. However, in the EULA it does not state anything. Can someone please confirm which is true?

I see you mentioned the quote that Chris said (I just realised that myself about what he said "does not use securom for the release control").

Modifié par mcneil_1, 19 février 2011 - 03:51 .

[Tricky_Rich]

mcneil_1 wrote...

MartinPham wrote...

I have some questions regarding Dragon Age 2's DRM, particularly with respect to Chris Priestly's comments initially made 18 days ago. Forgive me if they were asked previously.
With respect to the Release Date Control

1) I notice that Chris Priestly have written that a "Release Date (does not use securom)" is implemented. However, in the EULA it does not state anything. Can someone please confirm which is true?

I see you mentioned the quote that Chris said (I just realised that myself about what he said "does not use securom for the release control").

I've already mentioned this earlier in the thread and my counterpoint was that EA slipped SecuROM into Dead Space 2 at the very last second...nowhere in that game's EULA was it mentioned at all!

So basically, Chris may very well believe that SecuROM has not been implemented, but what's to stop EA forcing it through at the last second, like they did with Dead Space 2?

That is why people need an update now, because the game has gone gold, which would presumably mean that what is in there currently is set in stone!

Modifié par Tricky_Rich, 19 février 2011 - 12:05 .

[Spinifer]

This is taken from DA 2 EULA (EULA_DA2+_with+Cider_.1.4) from EA site www.ea.com/1/product-eulas:

B.  Technical Protection Measures.  This Software uses EA Activation
content protection technology.  An EA Account, including the acceptance
of EA’s online Terms of Service and Privacy Policy (available at
www.ea.com), and an Internet connection are required to authenticate
the Software and verify your license upon the initial launch of the
Software on any unique machine (“Authenticate” or “Authentication”). 
The serial code provided with this Software will be verified during
Authentication.  Authentication is limited to one EA Account per serial code.  Accordingly, this Software is not transferable once Authenticated. 
EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online
Authentication.  While there is no limit on the total number of machines
on which the Software can be Authenticated, you may launch and
access the Software on no more than five (5) unique machines in any
rolling 24-hour period.  If you disable or otherwise tamper with the
technical protection measures, the Software may not function properly
and you will have materially breached this License. 
 
The technical protection measures of this Software may interfere with
certain applications, such as debuggers, when such software could
potentially be used to circumvent the access-control technology as
prohibited by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

and further down :

14. Third Party Technology.  The Software incorporates technology developed
by Transgaming Technologies, Inc. (“Cider Technology”).  The terms and
conditions set out in Schedule A apply to Cider Technology.


This is from Transgaming site ( Note this is for Mac ! ): transgaming.com/news/transgaming-utilize-sony-dadcs-securom-technology

So it would be nice that someone from Bioware/Ea finaly clarifies what is the final DRM.

[Sblade]

Transgaming sounds to me like they have used port code from Ps3 to PC or viceversa or from 360 to PC or viceversa



That point 14 doesn´t meet it. Point B says technical protection measures, which are EA content protection. If it is another 3rd party manufacturer such as Securom or ¿TransGaming? then, the EULA is written incorrectly



Hope EA hasn´t done the same with Dead Space 2, but given the lack of answers, I would expect the worst by now.



They have access to the Goldmaster, they only have to install and test it. They KNOW if DA2 has Securom or not.



Why they don´t answer?

[Seifz]

Transgaming is responsible for the MacOS X port. The rest of us can ignore that stuff.



That said, it's been quite a long time now since we've had an update and there are many unanswered questions.

[Mage One]

So it reads like they've officially put in a system that violates our right of first sale and can interfere with other programs on our system if they could "potentially" be used to crack their DRM. That's very, very disappointing and very far from the sort of thing I'm willing to put up with, if my reading of this proves correct.

Modifié par Mage One, 19 février 2011 - 09:43 .

[XRed_RumX]

• One of the principles of the Rule of Law is that "The law can be
  readily determined and is stable enough to allow individuals to plan
  their affairs."
• A problem with DRM that EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) point to is: ".. in an effort to attract
  customers, these music services try to obscure the restrictions they
  impose on you with clever marketing."
• DRM laws are widely flouted: according to Australia Official Music
  Chart Survey, music theft from all causes is practiced by millions of
  people.

That is, the law, or in this case, the contract between the user and
seller, cannot be readily determined, and is widely broken. These facts
reduce the ability of a law-abiding person to both detect when they've
broken the law, and to feel a moral obligation to abide by DRM contract
and law.

• Is burning a music CD breaking the law?
• Is giving a CD I've purchased to a friend breaking the law?
• Is burning a CD, and then giving it to a friend, breaking the law?
• Is purchasing a CD, and listening to it, and then returning it to the store for resale breaking the law?
• Is purchasing, burning a CD, and then returning it to the store for resale breaking the law?

The answers to these questions are non-obvious, which breaks one of the fundamental principles of the Rule of Law listed above.

[Mage One]

It's also a big problem company-side, because they are allowed to put in DRM to protect their intellectual property rights, but at the same time, there a limits as to what they are legally allowed to do. That ambiguity has landed companies in courts time and time again because they're always willing to push that boundary, and in doing so they have, on a number of occasions, gone to far.

This comes to mind mainly because of this part in the EULA: "EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online Authentication." Notice it doesn't say by accepting the terms you grant EA permission to, but rather they reserve their right to. Frankly, I'm not sure that's a right they have. I don't mean to question it's legality, though. I just find it interesting.

Modifié par Mage One, 20 février 2011 - 12:44 .