663 réponses à ce sujet

[ZyGophe]

The EULA states: "This Software is licensed to you, not sold"

[mad825]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Not to mention, in some extreme cases, the DRM acts as a rootkit/virus and can attack your computer, even after all traces of the game it came attached to are gone.

Fortunately that is very rare and even when it does happen it only affects the game (s) that use that type of DRM and can be fixed/restored by using System Restore. On that note, it’s not very uncommon for the Anti-virus to display false positives which will prevent the game from functioning.

[ZyGophe]

mad825 wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Not to mention, in some extreme cases, the DRM acts as a rootkit/virus and can attack your computer, even after all traces of the game it came attached to are gone.

Fortunately that is very rare and even when it does happen it only affects the game (s) that use that type of DRM and can be fixed/restored by using System Restore. On that note, it’s not very uncommon for the Anti-virus to display false positives which will prevent the game from functioning.

You are only going to be able to fix using System Restore if you do this more or less immediately after installing the game, not months later; and I doubt whether any rootkit can be classed as a "false positive" regardless of its intentions?  Worryingly the EULA does state: "The technical protection measures of this Software may interfere with certain applications, such as debuggers, ..." -- this is invasive DRM in my opinion!

[daverian]

Oh boy, the DRM discussion. I haven't signed on here for awhile. I finally decided to sign on and post when I started reading this.

First Thing: Dragon Age 1 sold extremely well. Well enough for them to make money AND greenlight a sequel. Dragon age 1 also didn't have crazy amounts of DRM.

Second thing: I proudly bought and own LEGALLY many Bioware games -

Bioware Games: Baldur's Gate I and expansion, Baldur's Gate II and expansion, Neverwinter Nights and both expansions, KotOR, Dragon Age I and expansion.

Bioware Engine games: Planescape, Icewind Dale I, expansion and II, and Neverwinter Nights II and The Witcher.

Third Thing: I have to go 15 minutes to get on the Internet. I bought Dragon Age I, installed it, and drove that 15 minutes with my computer and hooked it up to activate it and to get all my downloadable content from pre-ordering the collector's edition. That  "DRM" contained there cost me a lot of time and gas money just to play something I legally bought. It would have been easier to haul my laptop to my Internet cafe and torrent, but I do like to support companies and pay for games I enjoy. I will do the same for Dragon Age II as well....

BUT, if I have to have a constant Internet connection, it won't happen and I will be cancelling my preorder. I will be watching for more information and will make a final decision before the game ships.

Word of advice if crazy DRM is on this game -> everyone at Bioware quit and go form another company...get away from EA.

[Erode_The_Soul]

mad825 wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Not to mention, in some extreme cases, the DRM acts as a rootkit/virus and can attack your computer, even after all traces of the game it came attached to are gone.

Fortunately that is very rare and even when it does happen it only affects the game (s) that use that type of DRM and can be fixed/restored by using System Restore. On that note, it’s not very uncommon for the Anti-virus to display false positives which will prevent the game from functioning.

It's true that this form of DRM is rarer nowadays, but when I called it a "rootkit/virus", I didn't actually mean it was recognized as one; just that the program attacks the computer like one.
Any program that burrows itself into my system, deciding without my authority to disable and destroy programs on my computer, even going so far as to disable actual physical system functions (such as opening and closing the disc drive) and will not go away when it's source is uninstalled -- only removing itself from my system with third pary removal software that half of hte time doesn't even work-- is considered a virus by my standards.
However, in most cases, antivirus software doesn't even recognize this nastiness as anything malicious to begin with.

Sorry about the confusion

[Falmung]

If this is indeed the case then I might have to reconsider and go for the console version of Dragon Age 2. I did the same for Assassin's Creed II and Brotherhood because the DRM in those games was horrible. Its sad that I will be missing on the better features on the PC like better graphics and mods but my internet is quite shaky and sometimes can be gone for a whole day. I was around a month without internet but I was still able to play Assassin's Creed II on my 360. I don't even want to imagine what I would had done if I had the pc version.



The worst thing is that if I change the preorder to a console version I will lose the signature edition. I will also be unable to import my savedata from Dragon Age Origins since I played it on PC. Will the steam version also have the DRM aside from being required to play with a steam account? With steam it at least has a offline mode in case my internet connection goes down and that has been very helpful when my internet falls off.



I hope we get a clarification from bioware soon.

[ZyGophe]

Falmung -- you only need internet connection to authenticate game following install; subsequently you can play offline

[BigJas]

----9----- wrote...

Yes, I am patiently awaiting disclosure on the details of the DRM so I can decide if I want to stay with my pre-order or cancel it.

I (and apparently seveal others) also would like confirmation or clarification about the Disclosure notice about requiring an Internet Connection just to play. Note that it does not state a Persistant Internet Connection.

<snip EULA extracts>

It's entirely EA/BioWare's choice to use DRM, I understand that. It's my choice not to install(purchase) the software–but I can't even decide that until I know the details of the DRM. So I await that information and trust that it will arrive in a timely fashion, i.e. so I can make my choice on accepting the pre-order or cancelling it. Thank you.

Very well put ----9----. No need to cancel pre-orders yet.

[Morroian]

----9----- wrote...

I believe you're correct and hope that is the case. Neither mention that a perpetual Internet connection is required, but there's a slight difference between the Online Disclosure Statement and the EULA (from the PDF) (partial quotes shown).

The EULA says, “an Internet connection are required to authenticate the Software and verify your license upon the initial launch of the Software on any unique machine...” (one time after installation.)

The Disclosure says, “INTERNET CONNECTION AND ACCEPTANCE OF END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT REQUIRED TO PLAY”

Probably an unintentional difference of wording. Of course, you'll need a connection for DLC.

Slightly unfortunate perhaps but that says to me you will only need the internet connection on initial launch therefore of course you need an internet connection to play.

[craigdolphin]

ZyGophé wrote...

The full EULA can be viewed @ http://eacom.s3.amaz... Cider_.1.4.pdf
An internet connection is only required for the initial launch on any unique PC; subsequently offline gameplay may result in gathering of info for later transmission to EA.

The relevant section of the EULA is

The EULA says:
This Software uses EA Activation content protection technology.  An EA Account, including the acceptance of EA’s online Terms of Service and Privacy Policy (available at www.ea.com), and an Internet connection are required to authenticate the Software and verify your license upon the initial launch of the Software on any unique machine (“Authenticate” or “Authentication”).  The serial code provided with this Software will be verified during Authentication. Authentication is limited to one EA Account per serial code.  Accordingly, this Software is not transferable once authenticated.  EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online Authentication. You may launch and access the Software on no more than five (5) unique machines in any rolling 24-hour period.  If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software may not function properly and you will have materially breached this License. 

This reads to me as if they will re-authenticate each time the game starts. Otherwise, how will they limit the number of 'unique machines' running the game within a rolling 24 hour period?

However, if my interpretation is wrong then: GREAT! But I fear it is not. Now, even if I am right, they may still be able to salve the wound if they will allow a previously autheticated computer to play offline if their is no internet connection present (like Starcraft 2). As I have said, the devil is in the details.

Seems like an excellent time for an authorized representative of the developer to step in and, I dunno, clarify the situation and eliminate the uncertainty? After all, if I'm wrong, they could pretty easily make folks thrilled with them by saying it ain't so. Instead they just act mute on the subject and don't seem to care that folks are getting upset.

Perhaps they think this is some kind of marketing genius-move by creating controversy to raise awareness of the game and then eventually stepping in with good news. If so, then I truly hate such manipulative tactics.

Modifié par craigdolphin, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:19 .

[AlanC9]

Yeah; how can the 5 PCs in 24 hours limit be enforced without checking every time it starts?

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:18 .

[daverian]

I would like an official answer as well please. If we are to spend our money buying the product, we should know what "rights" we have with it.

Why not release details?

1) they don't know them yet, which is an absolute lie. Game will be going gold very soon.

2) they don't want to announce it because they feel it will hurt pre-orders. Well, if this is the case, then they already understand that NO ONE LIKES DRM AND IT DOES HURT SALES! So stop using it!

duh!

Modifié par daverian, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:28 .

[sevalaricgirl]

craigdolphin wrote...

ZyGophé wrote...

The full EULA can be viewed @ http://eacom.s3.amaz... Cider_.1.4.pdf
An internet connection is only required for the initial launch on any unique PC; subsequently offline gameplay may result in gathering of info for later transmission to EA.

The relevant section of the EULA is

The EULA says:
This Software uses EA Activation content protection technology.  An EA Account, including the acceptance of EA’s online Terms of Service and Privacy Policy (available at www.ea.com), and an Internet connection are required to authenticate the Software and verify your license upon the initial launch of the Software on any unique machine (“Authenticate” or “Authentication”).  The serial code provided with this Software will be verified during Authentication. Authentication is limited to one EA Account per serial code.  Accordingly, this Software is not transferable once authenticated.  EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online Authentication. You may launch and access the Software on no more than five (5) unique machines in any rolling 24-hour period.  If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software may not function properly and you will have materially breached this License. 

This reads to me as if they will re-authenticate each time the game starts. Otherwise, how will they limit the number of 'unique machines' running the game within a rolling 24 hour period?

However, if my interpretation is wrong then: GREAT! But I fear it is not. Now, even if I am right, they may still be able to salve the wound if they will allow a previously autheticated computer to play offline if their is no internet connection present (like Starcraft 2). As I have said, the devil is in the details.

Seems like an excellent time for an authorized representative of the developer to step in and, I dunno, clarify the situation and eliminate the uncertainty? After all, if I'm wrong, they could pretty easily make folks thrilled with them by saying it ain't so. Instead they just act mute on the subject and don't seem to care that folks are getting upset.

Perhaps they think this is some kind of marketing genius-move by creating controversy to raise awareness of the game and then eventually stepping in with good news. If so, then I truly hate such manipulative tactics.

I don't know of many people who would be playing the game on 5 different computers at the same time and since it has to be activated with a specific email and password, I don't know of anyone who is stupid enough to give out their email and password to others if they wanted to install it on someone else's computer.  I think EA is overboard on this.  It's frankly ridiculous and sounds like legal jargon.  It they require log in every time the game is played, I'd think twice about buying an EA game in the future which is why I am not buying Dead Space 2 until I know for sure what EA is going with DA2's DRM. 

[AlanC9]

I feel compelled to point out, again, that Bio has released products before that needed to authenticate every time they started. People minded that. A little. The stuff still sold fine.

Edit: and that was six years ago, when always-on broadband connections were less common than they are today.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .

[Horace the Well Meaning Hybrid]

To be honest, none of this DRM stuff bothers me. The 5 PCs in 24 hours thing doesn't seem like a big deal and for the online authentication - though it sucks for the few that don't have the internet - for the vast majority this won't be a problem.



I really think the internet blows DRM out of proportion, piracy is a big issue on the PC in particular and I still think that companies are trying to find that balance of being unintrusive yet still semi-effective.

[shayboy4]

Wait... I dont get it.

Whats DRM scheme?

And why is everyone so mad?

[OfficerDonNZ]

DRM = Digatil Rights Managament, just a fancy way of saying copy protection. The reason people get so mad about it is that sometimes it can do very nasty things to your PC without you knowing about it. And the legality of such things is very grey which dosne't help. At least that's my understanding.



I've cancelled my Signutre Ed PC pre order. The DRM is something I'm not going to chance. If at a later date it seems to be ok I might get a copy of DA II for PC untill then I'll just have to be happy with the 360 version.

[David Gaider]

shayboy4 wrote...
And why is everyone so mad?

Some people are panicking because how intrusive (or not) the copy protection on the game will be is not clear enough for them. Which is understandable, although with more than a month to go for the game's release I doubt it's panic-worthy. This is not something you need to know by tomorrow.

As I understand it, clarification will be provided as soon as its ready. Considering how eager some people are to misinterpret, it's probably best that the t's are crossed correctly.

Modifié par David Gaider, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:29 .

[the_one_54321]

Darth Gaider wrote...
As I understand it, clarification will be provided as soon as its ready. Considering how eager some people are to misinterpret, it's probably best that the t's are crossed correctly.

There are lots of people that are brutally critical of DRM, but it can be said that they are justified in that when you consider some of the really underhanded things that have been perpetrated with DRM in the past. I believe that including the wrong system of DRM in your games is one of the quickest way to scare off a decent chunk of your portential buyers. Maybe not enough to change the game from a commercial success to a comercial failuer, but enough to be noticable. So with that in mind, yeah, it's in their best interest to be as concretely clear as possible about what is being installed.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:08 .

[TwelveV]

mad825 wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Not to mention, in some extreme cases, the DRM acts as a rootkit/virus and can attack your computer, even after all traces of the game it came attached to are gone.

Fortunately that is very rare and even when it does happen it only affects the game (s) that use that type of DRM and can be fixed/restored by using System Restore. On that note, it’s not very uncommon for the Anti-virus to display false positives which will prevent the game from functioning.

Sometimes it affects more than the game, and cannot be fixed.  Versions of SecuROM destroyed hardware.  I lost 2 cd/dvd drives to it 4 or 5 years back, and it happened to many others as well.  I will never buy anything that uses SecuROM again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I find this quite interesting.

First, some people seem to think that DRM is terribly important, and that the wrong sort of DRM produces an automatic "no sale" result.

Second, there are significant bonuses being offered not just for pre-ordering the game, but for pre-ordering it quite early (the SE, in this case).

Now, given the above, and further given that there are typically no penalties for cancelling a pre-order, I would think that the promotion would encourage huge numbers of pre-orders, but then the failure to divulge the DRM well in advance would also make many of those pre-orders soft.

I'm curious as to whether that defeats the purpose of encouraging pre-ordering. If the DRM is announced and some people don't like it (I suppose in EA is confident people won't mind, then this is moot), those people will cancle their pre-orders, thus removing any demand-certainty from the publisher's business plan.

As I said, I find this quite interesting.

[Aprudena Gist]

David Gaider wrote...

shayboy4 wrote...
And why is everyone so mad?

Some people are panicking because how intrusive (or not) the copy protection on the game will be is not clear enough for them. Which is understandable, although with more than a month to go for the game's release I doubt it's panic-worthy. This is not something you need to know by tomorrow.

As I understand it, clarification will be provided as soon as its ready. Considering how eager some people are to misinterpret, it's probably best that the t's are crossed correctly.

Yea cleary drm isn't important in this day and age when companies try to screw people over like they did with Assassins creed 2. The fact that this **** isn't clearly put out anywhere is the fact of you trying to hide it and dissuade people into buying a game under false pretenses.

[Sylvius the Mad]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

I've cancelled my Signutre Ed PC pre order. The DRM is something I'm not going to chance.

Even if we accept your justification, why wouldn't you wait until you know more about the DRM?  Or at least give them more time to tell you?

Cancelling your pre-order now or later costs you nothing, but cancelling it now guarantees you can't have the SE.  You've just voluntarily deprived yourself of a product.  If the DRM is revealed to be really not that bad, what then?