663 réponses à ce sujet

[generalkorrd]

And still all these people are panicking when they don't even know what the drm is or how it works. They are going off of some forum jockey's interpretation of the eula. Like DG said, wait until they OFFICIALLY tell you what it is before you go on a crusade.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I find this quite interesting.
First, some people seem to think that DRM is terribly important, and that the wrong sort of DRM produces an automatic "no sale" result.
Second, there are significant bonuses being offered not just for pre-ordering the game, but for pre-ordering it quite early (the SE, in this case).
Now, given the above, and further given that there are typically no penalties for cancelling a pre-order, I would think that the promotion would encourage huge numbers of pre-orders, but then the failure to divulge the DRM well in advance would also make many of those pre-orders soft.
I'm curious as to whether that defeats the purpose of encouraging pre-ordering. If the DRM is announced and some people don't like it (I suppose in EA is confident people won't mind, then this is moot), those people will cancle their pre-orders, thus removing any demand-certainty from the publisher's business plan.
As I said, I find this quite interesting.

I'm actually somewhat sympathetic of the "slip it under the radar" argument. Once people have made a pre-order I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that they are more likely to tollerate bad news than to go and cancel that pre-order.

That is to say, once they have you somewhat commited you are more likely to stick with that commitment in the face of bad news than if you would be to still buy the game in the face of bad news had you not made the innitial soft commitment.

[Morroian]

craigdolphin wrote...

The relevant section of the EULA is

The EULA says:
This Software uses EA Activation content protection technology.  An EA Account, including the acceptance of EA’s online Terms of Service and Privacy Policy (available at www.ea.com), and an Internet connection are required to authenticate the Software and verify your license upon the initial launch of the Software on any unique machine (“Authenticate” or “Authentication”).  The serial code provided with this Software will be verified during Authentication. Authentication is limited to one EA Account per serial code.  Accordingly, this Software is not transferable once authenticated.  EA reserves the right to validate your license through subsequent online Authentication. You may launch and access the Software on no more than five (5) unique machines in any rolling 24-hour period.  If you disable or otherwise tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software may not function properly and you will have materially breached this License. 

This reads to me as if they will re-authenticate each time the game starts. Otherwise, how will they limit the number of 'unique machines' running the game within a rolling 24 hour period?

It reads to me like EA reserves the right to change the authentication scheme at a later date. They probably have that in all their EULAs.

[Morroian]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

DRM = Digatil Rights Managament, just a fancy way of saying copy protection. The reason people get so mad about it is that sometimes it can do very nasty things to your PC without you knowing about it. And the legality of such things is very grey which dosne't help. At least that's my understanding.

I've cancelled my Signutre Ed PC pre order. The DRM is something I'm not going to chance. If at a later date it seems to be ok I might get a copy of DA II for PC untill then I'll just have to be happy with the 360 version.

No offence but thats ridiculous given that it appears similar to DAO. Its hardly likely they're going to use starforce.

[BigJas]

generalkorrd wrote...

And still all these people are panicking when they don't even know what the drm is or how it works. They are going off of some forum jockey's interpretation of the eula. Like DG said, wait until they OFFICIALLY tell you what it is before you go on a crusade.

I suppose you missed the calm rational posts then?

[Connect]

Morroian wrote...

OfficerDonNZ wrote...



DRM = Digatil Rights Managament, just a fancy way of saying copy protection. The reason people get so mad about it is that sometimes it can do very nasty things to your PC without you knowing about it. And the legality of such things is very grey which dosne't help. At least that's my understanding.



I've cancelled my Signutre Ed PC pre order. The DRM is something I'm not going to chance. If at a later date it seems to be ok I might get a copy of DA II for PC untill then I'll just have to be happy with the 360 version.

No offence but thats ridiculous given that it appears similar to DAO. Its hardly likely they're going to use starforce.

Starforce was way better than the butchering they do with online activations. At least Starforce allowed you to play the game fully offline and you don't need to worry about the servers going down in the future.

[Morroian]

Connect wrote...

Starforce was way better than the butchering they do with online activations. At least Starforce allowed you to play the game fully offline and you don't need to worry about the servers going down in the future.

What about when it mangled your system leaving, IIRC, CD drives unable to be used. 

[addiction21]

Morroian wrote...

Connect wrote...

Starforce was way better than the butchering they do with online activations. At least Starforce allowed you to play the game fully offline and you don't need to worry about the servers going down in the future.

What about when it mangled your system leaving, IIRC, CD drives unable to be used. 

Does not count because its not DA2 related or because it weakens his rantings.

[craigdolphin]

Morroian wrote...


It reads to me like EA reserves the right to change the authentication scheme at a later date. They probably have that in all their EULAs.

I don't recall it being in the DA:O or Me2 EULAs. *shrug*

I just don't see how the DRM can fail to check in/authenticate with the server on startup if they want to enforce the X-machines-per-unit-time idea. If I'm wrong then so be it. I'll apologize for being such a 'panicky' fan when/if I am corrected by the 'facts' and if the DRM turns out to be as reasonable as that used on DA:O.

Otherwise, I'm glad that DG agrees that asking for clarity on the issue is not unreasonable. I hope the powers that be agree, and are able to respond to those requests soon. However, I do think that if you're asking people to place orders/pre orders, the basic information should be available at the time. (That's not intended as a legal argument, just a 'right thing to do' kind of argument.)

I have not yet cancelled my preorder because I am still hoping that Bioware will provide clarity prior to the release date and I can make a more informed choice then. And I don't think other people should cancel just yet either, though it is obviously up to them. I still think DA2 will be a great game like all Bioware's games. And I want to keep supporting the creative folks at Bioware so they can make more such games in the future. But the DRM issue sure makes it difficult. And if this is unresolved for too long then, yes, I likely will cancel my preorder then.

Modifié par craigdolphin, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:33 .

[Seifz]

Eh, DRM is pointless. It's always cracked within a few days of release and it does absolutely nothing to deter piracy. If you need to put something in place to appease the shareholders, then a simple system is the best choice. Basically, check for the disc. If it's there, you're done. If not, attempt an online authentication. If both fail, don't run. Simple.



Otherwise, the best solution seems to be purchasing the game and then downloading an illegal, cracked copy of the executable that doesn't have all of the annoying restrictions. If the people who can't be bothered to purchase the game legally don't have to deal with persistent Internet connections and other nonsense, why should I?

[craigdolphin]

Seifz wrote...
If you need to put something in place to appease the shareholders, then a simple system is the best choice. Basically, check for the disc. If it's there, you're done. If not, attempt an online authentication. If both fail, don't run. Simple.

That would be ideal IMO.

As for the last part of your comment, please don't discuss illegal workarounds. You'll just get the thread locked per Bioware's rules.

[Blastback]

RangerTypeII wrote...

Any ligitimant paying customer should not be complaning about ways to keep piriting software as difficult as possible. it is a majur problem espiciall in China if ia was the developer I would require on line connection and disk to compliment and complet the program Limiting theft is not a bad thing just think of it a a pat down when you fly

When the methods of preventing piracy prevent me from being able to play a game that I legaly purchased, yeah, I think I have a darn good right to complain.  I got a copy of the Sims 2 Apartment life at my local target, installed it, and went to play.  The cept something wasn't working, I couldn't play the game.  reinstalled and tried again.  Several times.  Still nothing.  Checked EA tech support, and found that it was because of the DRM, Secrom I think.  It wasn't allowing me to use the game.  It wasn't until a year later, when I had another computer, that I could play the dang thing. 

[burning salaradile]

I don't understand. This is nothing to get all worked-up over IMO.

[Erode_The_Soul]

generalkorrd wrote...

And still all these people are panicking when they don't even know what the drm is or how it works. They are going off of some forum jockey's interpretation of the eula. Like DG said, wait until they OFFICIALLY tell you what it is before you go on a crusade.

Not all of us are panicking, though. I'm concerned because I don't like online authentications each time I play the game. But I'm not making judgements about purchasing yet; I'm waiting for clarification.

[FellowerOfOdin]

craigdolphin wrote...

Seifz wrote...
If you need to put something in place to appease the shareholders, then a simple system is the best choice. Basically, check for the disc. If it's there, you're done. If not, attempt an online authentication. If both fail, don't run. Simple.

That would be ideal IMO.

As for the last part of your comment, please don't discuss illegal workarounds. You'll just get the thread locked per Bioware's rules.

Incorrect. The normal disc check is the easiest copy protection to shut down thus it's not the ideal solution.

No offense, but I just got fed-up with people who just want it to be as easy  as possible for them while not wasting a single second on trying to play devil's advocate and see it from the publisher's perspective. Same goes for all the people crying that you might not be able to play the game in 10 years when the servers shut down...stupid argument. By then, there will be TONS of ways to circumvent online activation even if the publisher missed removing it, so...invalid argument is invalid.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 27 janvier 2011 - 12:17 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'm actually somewhat sympathetic of the "slip it under the radar" argument. Once people have made a pre-order I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that they are more likely to tollerate bad news than to go and cancel that pre-order.

That is to say, once they have you somewhat commited you are more likely to stick with that commitment in the face of bad news than if you would be to still buy the game in the face of bad news had you not made the innitial soft commitment.

I don't see how that matters.  Taking advantage of human nature is just good sense on EA's part.

What matters is that each individual has the option of cancelling his pre-order.  Whether any one in particular actually does cancel it doesn't matter.  He could, and thus he's been given the opportunity to make an informed decision.

[BTCentral]

craigdolphin wrote...

I just don't see how the DRM can fail to check in/authenticate with the server on startup if they want to enforce the X-machines-per-unit-time idea. If I'm wrong then so be it. I'll apologize for being such a 'panicky' fan when/if I am corrected by the 'facts' and if the DRM turns out to be as reasonable as that used on DA:O.

ME2 has the same 5 machine per 24 hour limit, yet can be played completely offline.

Modifié par BTCentral, 27 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[ZyGophe]

I just wish to clarify my position regarding this issue:



I am not anti-DRM -- having worked most of my life in IT (33 years) I fully appreciate EA's efforts to protect their product against piracy.



My only concern is how DRM is implemented. EA state that Debuggers could be effected -- in what way? If DRM stops interference with EA code fine. If, however, DRM invalidates ANY software on my PC, simply because it has the potential to circumvent DRM, then this is totally unacceptable.



I have pre-ordered DA2, and as DG has advised, I am in no panic to cancel. I do, however, think that unless we ask for clarification NOW then the big day will arrive and we will still be none the wiser.

[Blastback]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'm actually somewhat sympathetic of the "slip it under the radar" argument. Once people have made a pre-order I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that they are more likely to tollerate bad news than to go and cancel that pre-order.

That is to say, once they have you somewhat commited you are more likely to stick with that commitment in the face of bad news than if you would be to still buy the game in the face of bad news had you not made the innitial soft commitment.

I don't see how that matters.  Taking advantage of human nature is just good sense on EA's part.

What matters is that each individual has the option of cancelling his pre-order.  Whether any one in particular actually does cancel it doesn't matter.  He could, and thus he's been given the opportunity to make an informed decision.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there have  been a few times where EA sliped DRM programs in without giving any real prior infromation. 

[David Gaider]

Aprudena Gist wrote...
Yea cleary drm isn't important in this day and age when companies try to screw people over like they did with Assassins creed 2. The fact that this **** isn't clearly put out anywhere is the fact of you trying to hide it and dissuade people into buying a game under false pretenses.

You misunderstand me. I never meant that DRM is an unimportant issue-- just that it's not vital for you to have it clarified right this second. You're not buying the game tomorrow, after all. That clarification will come soon enough.

[DJBare]

generalkorrd wrote...

And still all these people are panicking when they don't even know what the drm is or how it works. They are going off of some forum jockey's interpretation of the eula. Like DG said, wait until they OFFICIALLY tell you what it is before you go on a crusade.

Is that not the point?, people are being kept in the dark about the details.
I'm all for supporting the work done by the devs, but there has to be a limitation on how much you impose on the legitimate customer to fight piracy, it's not the fault of the legitimate customer that pirates exist yet it is they who have to pay the price.

[Seifz]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

craigdolphin wrote...

Seifz wrote...
If you need to put something in place to appease the shareholders, then a simple system is the best choice. Basically, check for the disc. If it's there, you're done. If not, attempt an online authentication. If both fail, don't run. Simple.

That would be ideal IMO.

As for the last part of your comment, please don't discuss illegal workarounds. You'll just get the thread locked per Bioware's rules.

Incorrect. The normal disc check is the easiest copy protection to shut down thus it's not the ideal solution.

No offense, but I just got fed-up with people who just want it to be as easy  as possible for them while not wasting a single second on trying to play devil's advocate and see it from the publisher's perspective. Same goes for all the people crying that you might not be able to play the game in 10 years when the servers shut down...stupid argument. By then, there will be TONS of ways to circumvent online activation even if the publisher missed removing it, so...invalid argument is invalid.

The whole point is that there is no such thing as a DRM scheme that isn't easy to circumvent.  The DRM described to us so far (pending future clarifications) isn't even something new.  It'll be cracked on release day.  it's a waste of resources and it's a burden for legitimate customers.

Look, I'm not an advocate of piracy.  I don't ever pirate games, movies, or anything else.  But I'm not against legally purchasing a game and then downloading the "illegal" cracked executable to avoid jumping through all the DRM nonsense that the pirates don't have to deal with.  Why shouldn't I?

[snackrat]

Zalekanzer wrote...

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Well if all the games require an internet connection, maybe some them corporations can pay for half our monthly Internets fee. I think that would make it fair for me.

Unless, ya know, you have money pouring out of your bodily holes and don't care as much for that aspect.

Last I checked, internet was not pay-per-use (unless you're at a hotel), but instead a monthly fee. Meaning you aren't charged for every time you connect to the internet, but instead pay to have 24-hour access for 30 days. So being required to verify the game when you install it for the first time leads to a company using half of your internet? 
Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your chain of logic that drew you to come to this conclusion?

I agree that the idea of EA paying for half our internet is silly, but fact of the matter is that very few countries actually have a monthly fee for unlimited internet as standard... while others may provide it, it is usually only the most expensive option. In my country (New Zealand) you pay for a certain amount per month, and the price is influenced by your download speed. After you've used up your limited amount, you might be swtched to 'dial-up' speeds (surcharges apply), you might have a huge surcharge for every 1GB/100MB/etc you consume over the limit, rounding up... or a moderate in-between - a medium surcharge for heavily reduced (but still not dial-up) speeds.

This is why I am concerned about the possibility of needed to be constantly connected to the internet, and games that occasionally 'ping' to check you are still connected. I will also never play online games like Runescape, WoW, Dragon Age: Legends or what have you simply because of the data caps here.