219 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

tmp7704 wrote...

As far as i understand it Isolde tried to hide Connor's ability because mages aren't allowed to hold titles (meaning Connor couldn't inherit Redcliffe if the word got out)  So it had very little to do with how mages are being treated in their tower.

Can't hold titles, has to be locked away in a tower, won't be able to live as a normal person or even have the same rights as a normal person. Why shouldn't she be wanting to protect him from that?

tmp7704 wrote...

In one of the endings you can get Isolde gives birth to another child (a daughter) and after this child is discovered to also be a mage the Arl puts her in the tower and visits her there regularly.

Cause he had no choice.

[Eclipse_9990]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Bold: Ok thats a pretty sh*tty example because the poison was already supplied to Jowan(by a non-mage no less). Blood Magic or Magic in general had nothing to do with that.

I'm not entirely convinced because then why put such crucial plan in hands of pretty much stranger and risk he double-crosses you and reveals it all instead of following the plan like an actual faithful underlining would? Surely Loghain wasn't lacking these.

Second Bold: Well the thing is you can use blood magic for stuff other than killing, and taking over people you know?

Yes, but you do realize this discussion is specifically about whether a mage not locked up in tower would possibly use the aspects of blood magic harmful for other people? I doubt anyone in Thedas is really concerned that if mages weren't held in the towers then some of them could, Maker forbid, improve the local crops or heal some sick.

The thing is.. Mages are just people, and like all people there are good, bad, and in between. Just because some Mages would do some horrible things doesn't mean that all would. Besides I'd be willing to bet that there would be more than a fair share of Mages who would be more than willing to hunt down the bastards..

Saying that all Mages should be locked up because of how powerful they are is like saying all Nobility should be locked up..Because of how powerful they are. Besides if the Chantry actually treated Mages better, and didn't try to blame every bad thing that happens on them there wouldn't even be an issue(then again Dragon Age 2 wouldnt be as exciting). 

I'm not saying that all Mages should be left to there own devices from the beginning, I agree with taking Mages for training, and learning. But they shouldn't be locked in there for the're whole lives. Hell it could be like a regular school, and they go there everyday, and still be with there families. Or alternatively if their parents are Mages the parent(s) can teach them instead. 

[tmp7704]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Saying that all Mages should be locked up because of how powerful they are is like saying all Nobility should be locked up..Because of how powerful they are.

Isn't that very much the drive behind preferring systems like democracy over monarchy or feudal order? Yes, people try prevent others from becoming too powerful where it's possible, out of well founded fear (based on literally hundreds of years of experience) that such power would be abused. Not by all of course but it doesn't take many abusers to potentially hurt a lot.

The conundrum with mages is it isn't exactly possible to strip them from their power like you could do it with a noble. Short of turning them tranquil but i don't think that's the route the mages themselves would prefer, as alternative to being under supervision.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[Eclipse_9990]

tmp7704 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Saying that all Mages should be locked up because of how powerful they are is like saying all Nobility should be locked up..Because of how powerful they are.

Isn't that very much the drive behind preferring systems like democracy over monarchy or feudal order? Yes, people try prevent others from becoming too powerful where it's possible, out of well founded fear (based on literally hundreds of years of experience) that such power would be abused. Not by all of course but it doesn't take many abusers to potentially hurt a lot.

The conundrum with mages is it isn't exactly possible to strip them from their power like you could do it with a noble. Short of turning them tranquil but i don't think that's the route the mages themselves would prefer, as alternative to being under supervision.

Bold : But the thing is Nobility is a title. Mages are.. Some kind of crazy genetic...Thing... Of awesomeness. You can change politics and stuff, but you can't change living beings. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:56 .

[tmp7704]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Bold 1: But the thing is Nobility is a title. Mages are.. Some kind of crazy genetic...Thing... Of awesomeness. You can change politics and stuff, but you can't change living beings.

And that's exactly why the whole issue isn't as easy as political struggle... still, the basics and the reaction of population at large are quite similar.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 janvier 2011 - 05:01 .

[Malanek]

tmp7704 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Not being allowed to hold titles IS another example of the chantry treating mages badly.

But not something that would be affected by how the mage towers are run nor by who is in charge of them.

I'm pretty sure it is a chantry rule. You can't make such a drconian law unless you are the entity that is in charge of them.

[jaikss]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]jaikss wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And a possessed
cat can kill three seasoned templars (Awakening) and almost anything can
be possessed (even dead trees). There's no proof that the Circle is
necessary.
[/quote]

Id say the events of dao are proof enough that it is indeed necessary in one form or another.Needless to say what wouldve been the consequences of someone like Uldred being able to leave the tower. [/quote]

I disagree - the incident never would have happened if mages weren't fighting their oppressors. There's absolutely no proof that the Chantry controlled Circles are necessary when we see that alternate societies - Dalish elves, Haven, and Rivain - function just as well without Chantry and templar oversight.


Chantrys treatment of mages was the catalyst in this case certainly,but why isnt really the point here,but when.When an abomination is going to be "born" you cant really take the risk of someone like Uldred being able to wonder off on his own.

Rivain is a poor example,for all we know they could  keep their wise women locked away in basements until they have need of their guidance.

Dalish&Haven  would be a valid example if the general populace viewed the mages in same light as they do,which is not the case in Andrastian nations.In both the Dalish elves we meet in DAO aswell as Haven a mage has been   put into a leadership positio, which suggests they either respect them or atleast view them as any other members of their society,whereas in Andrastian nations mages are barely tolerated.I dare say the opposition mages would face in their every day lives would create openings for demons just as badly as the Circle,but atleast in the Circle the damage can be contained.

Also  as a side note,I find it curious youre stating anders' story as a fact.
[/quote]

Nothing about Ander's story indicated that it was fictional - he seemed pretty amused, true, but there's no indication that he was lying. [/quote]

Just because something is stated by a NPC doesnt make it true,if that was the case Leliana was just an innocent ministrel who found herself in Fereldan.

Not to mention the fact that Anders supposedly escaped the tower seven times and was never branded as a maleficar or atleast tossed into Aeonar doesnt really fit with the established lore.

Modifié par jaikss, 28 janvier 2011 - 09:59 .

[jaikss]

double post

Modifié par jaikss, 28 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .

[mesmerizedish]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
...
I'm not saying that all Mages should be left to there own devices from the beginning, I agree with taking Mages for training, and learning. But they shouldn't be locked in there for the're whole lives. Hell it could be like a regular school, and they go there everyday, and still be with there families. Or alternatively if their parents are Mages the parent(s) can teach them instead. 

Dragon Age III: Harry Hawke Hides at Hogwarts!

I am so collecting royalties when the magical crossover event of the CENTURY gets made into a multi-billion dollar media franchise. If David Gaider is nice to me, I'll give him a cut.

[Lotion Soronarr]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I would side with the Mages. Not even lore wise does it make sense to confine them. The Tevinter Imperium and the Arlathan elves were able to build powerful societies with mages in control and or running around willy nilly. The Grey Warden without any special abomination fighting training or special training at all was able to plow through every abomination in the Circle Tower and the only one that remotely difficult was Abomination Uldred. The only other parts that were slightly difficult were the two desire demon fights (largely because the ambush was...well an ambush).

Tevinter has circles, just like Ferelden...mages are opressed there too..just by other mages.

Or Arlathan we know nothing...

Broken Circle? Gameplay decision. The player has to win.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one is unregulated; there's law and order in place. A taskforce with mages and non-mages keeping the peace makes more sense than an anti-mage religious order that imprisons mages and treats them as though they're sub-human.

So..those mages in the police force..I guess they are incapable of blood magic (mind control) or turning into an abomination?

I wonder...if police officers could mind-control you, suck yout your life or turn into Cthulu at any moment...how mucm would people trust them?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:33 .

[Gabey5]

The Mages... They have magic, much better allies imo

[Cyr8]

I'll play the game minimum three times. So first time I'll play a mage and side with the mages. Second time I'll be a rogue and side with templars. Then I'll be a warrior and be neutral.



Question: Do you think that if the story actually comes down to this, if you choose to side with the Templars, do you think all the mages in your group rebel against you and try to kill you? A la Wynne? And if you side with the Templars, same with whoever agrees with them on your team?

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

jaikss wrote...

Id say the events of dao are proof enough that it is indeed necessary in one form or another.Needless to say what wouldve been the consequences of someone like Uldred being able to leave the tower.

I disagree - the incident never would have happened if mages weren't fighting their oppressors.

The incident happened because Uldred couldn't get things his way. Short of always getting things his way, what would prevent Uldred from repeating it, even if he wasn't locked up in the tower?

Uldred's way was being free of an oppressive system that denies mages rights and a voice. I'd say that the events of DA:O are proof enough that mistreating and imprisoning mages is always going to result in mages fighting against their oppressors. If Rivain, Haven, and the Dalish clans can have mages living with non-mages, and the pre-segregation era of the Andrastian societies had the same (see: History of the Circle codex) then I see no reason to segregate men, women, and children from the rest of the world merely because the Chantry wants to control them.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

Given how an untrained mage is just a walking 'Possess Here' sign for the Fade Demons, I'd be supporting the Templars.

Why is it that the first impulse of the pro-chantry people is to claim that it's a choice between the Templar/Chantry/Circle system or having untrained mages running amuck with no social support, no regulation, and no training whatsoever?  There are many other societies that work just fine without the circle and do control magic in a sane and humane manner.

-Polaris

Is there now? And what proof do you have thereof? None. You don't know what kind of trials a Dalish Keeper or Rivaini witch has to go through to become what they are. So there you fall flat. Nor is the Tevinters any better in treating their non-leader mages than the Chantry. So again, flat on your face.
Matter of fact is, that all we got is the knowledge that at least the amges in those societies (not Tevinter) gets to live amongst the commoners. You do not know wether or not their upbringing and taining is anymore humane than the Circle.
Why do I bother? You won't ever admit to this...

Yet we have information from the devs that explicitly states that in canon, people are making the argument that Rivain and the Dalish have no templars or Chantry oversight, and they're no worse off because of it. I see no evidence that the Chantry controlled Circles are necessary. or that dehumanizing and imprisoning mages for their entire lives is going to accomplish anything but an eventual Templar/Mage war.

tmp7704 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

When you actually speak to the bloodmages in the tower they say they turned to it to gain freedom from the templars.

Yes, my point is people cite that as if it's some sort of proof that the same mages wouldn't reach for the same means to gain anything else, ever. When if anything it's an opposite -- since it shows that at least in come situation these mages are willing to do exactly this.

Gaining freedom happens to be one such situation, but the faith it's the only one is based on well, nothing.

You're intentionally ignoring the issue that mages are fighting against their oppressors. Do people abuse their power? Yes. all the time. Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral, after all, simply because the mages staged a nonviolent protest (that lead to the segregation of all mages, which is why mages are isolated from society these days in Andrastian societies).

Suprez30 wrote...

The mage still aren't common folk . They need control . You don't leave a Schizophrene for too long without medication.or he might end up pretending to be John Wayne in the middle of your neighborhood street.

Rivain, Haven, and the Dalish societies prove otherwise.

Suprez30 wrote...

Just look at what happenned at the circle of magi .. All it's took was 1 abomination to start to party . The place was also heavily fortified and *protected* by templar . Think of Red cliffes . 1 Possessed kids almost wiped out the whole frigging town..

You mean when the Circle was overrun with abominations, templars were ineffective, and it never would have happened if mages weren't fighting against their oppressors? Or when Redcliffe happened because a pious woman didn't want to hand over her son to a Circle where he could be turned tranquil or killed without any real evidence against him?

Suprez30 wrote...

Mage need to be controlled. Sure they could police themself out but hmmmg .. They're also divided .i hate to admit it .. But i agree with the templar.

You have proof they need to be controlled? Because Arlathan and the Dales had mages in positions of power, and they didn't turn out like Tevinter. We have Haven, Rivain, and the Dalish clans as proof that mages don't need templar or Chantry oversight.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one is unregulated; there's law and order in place. A taskforce with mages and non-mages keeping the peace makes more sense than an anti-mage religious order that imprisons mages and treats them as though they're sub-human.

So..those mages in the police force..I guess they are incapable of blood magic (mind control) or turning into an abomination?

I wonder...if police officers could mind-control you, suck yout your life or turn into Cthulu at any moment...how mucm would people trust them?

Why should they be incapable of blood magic? Even Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to defeat the darkspawn.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sarcams Lobsel...sarcasm....

[packardbell]

Would be an interesting to see if an Exalted March happens or nearly happens.

[Big Blue Car]

Anyone who would side with the Templars probably has latent fascist tendencies and should examine themselves.

[packardbell]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Anyone who would side with the Templars probably has latent fascist tendencies and should examine themselves.

I'm sure theres a logical reason to side with anyone in teh game.

[Big Blue Car]

Please enlighten me.

[John Epler]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Anyone who would side with the Templars probably has latent fascist tendencies and should examine themselves.

Yes, this would be an example of an unproductive comment. Let's keep this on-topic (who would you side with) and free of such sweeping statements.

There's already a 'are the Templars jerks' thread open, so let's keep that discussion there.

[Erani]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Please enlighten me.

Beecose magis ar evir 

[Big Blue Car]

JohnEpler wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

Anyone who would side with the Templars probably has latent fascist tendencies and should examine themselves.

Yes, this would be an example of an unproductive comment. Let's keep this on-topic (who would you side with) and free of such sweeping statements.

There's already a 'are the Templars jerks' thread open, so let's keep that discussion there.

People's response to media containing real-world issues, which dogmatic prejudice certainly is, is relevant beyond discussing the relevant fiction alone. 'Art reflects life', and all that. If someone's interpretation of the Chantry is sympathetic then it suggests they have a worrying view on how society should function in the real world as well.

But ok, I am definitely on Team Mages! 

[Apollo Starflare]

Chalk me up as a neutral. Both sides can be equally atrocious from what I've seen, I'll be over there *points* drinking some coffee. Maybe I'll just go hang out with the Dwarves or the Dalish (or both? Party!)