48 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfsite]

Frankly I thought Jack's LI tree was ht e most developed of all the characters.  It wasn't just "Hey want to do it?"  "Sure lets do it"  (Well technically you can but you will pay for it).

The Paragon route though was a much longer and more character driven moment showing how hard Jack hides that part of herself out of fear of being hurt.  Frankly I was quite shocked to see the state she was in at the end but I could understand it completely.  It was quite touching.

[Batlass8]

It sounds to me like this whole debate is really just an extension of the oft-examined "nature vs. nurture" dichotomy. Is Jack the way she is because of how she was raised? Will she be a psycho-**** forever?

I honestly don't think Jack is psychotic. Violent, yes, but not psychotic. She's actually pretty logical and pragmatic. If you talk to her, she explains why she did everything she did. Murder? That seems pretty straightforward; the way she was raised makes her view the world as a zero-sum (no pun intended) game. Kill or be killed. Get them before they get you. If they're using you, kill them because when they don't need you anymore, you're dead. Trust no one. Same goes for everything else. Destroy the space station? Turians went total war on the only place she'd felt like she belonged. Open and shut revenge scenario.

As for the Shepard romance...for the first time, someone did something 'altruistic' (it's in quotes because I don't feel all the connotations of the word fit, but it's as good as I can think of right now) for Jack, with no expectations. She's never really encountered that before. Of course she's going to step back and try to work out how to respond to the situation. And she handles the romance (I think) as well as can be expected. More than a love interest, Jack just needs a good friend. Shepard gives her that. (At least in the romance, since God forbid you chat up someone you don't plan on sleeping with). <_<

As for her reaction to cheating!Shep, I think she'd probably smash some chairs around, but not Shepard. Inadequate as my reasoning may seem, I really don't think that's Jack's style. If anything, she'd want to pretend she never cared about Shepard in the first place. Ignoring him gets that done better than killing him.

Edit: Sorry for the WoT.  Didn't realize!

Modifié par Batlass8, 27 janvier 2011 - 02:53 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Batlass8 wrote...

I honestly don't think Jack is psychotic. Violent, yes, but not psychotic. She's actually pretty logical and pragmatic. If you talk to her, she explains why she did everything she did. Murder? That seems pretty straightforward; the way she was raised makes her view the world as a zero-sum (no pun intended) game. Kill or be killed. Get them before they get you. If they're using you, kill them because when they don't need you anymore, you're dead. Trust no one. Same goes for everything else. Destroy the space station? Turians went total war on the only place she'd felt like she belonged. Open and shut revenge scenario.

I agree.  I ended up liking Jack a lot even though she has limited friendship dialogue which cuts off abruptly because of my Shepard, who was Earthborn/Sole Survivor.  For her, Jack was something of a cautionary tale, a "through a mirror darkly" of what she might have become had circumstances been different.  

I just wish you didn't need to romance her to complete her character arc.  

[SlottsMachine]

V-rex wrote...

Also as a side note, does anyone else kind of smell a hate thread here? I mean it might not be the OP's intention but he did ask a question guarenteed to rile up the Jack fanbase and get them all to start angrily posting here. No I'm not directly accusing the OP of trolling, just pointing out that it could easily be mistaken as such.

Instead it just turned into Jack's fan thread 2.0, good to see. 

[Jarek_Cousland]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

Instead it just turned into Jack's fan thread 2.0, good to see. 

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL O_O


I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Even though I get her but don't like her, I'm gonna have to do a Jack LI playthrough sometime.

[V-rex]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

V-rex wrote...

Also as a side note, does anyone else kind of smell a hate thread here? I mean it might not be the OP's intention but he did ask a question guarenteed to rile up the Jack fanbase and get them all to start angrily posting here. No I'm not directly accusing the OP of trolling, just pointing out that it could easily be mistaken as such.

Instead it just turned into Jack's fan thread 2.0, good to see. 

Indeed.

[axl99]

No relationship is worth having if you won't fight for the person you love.

[PrinceLionheart]

wolfsite wrote...

Frankly I thought Jack's LI tree was ht e most developed of all the characters.  It wasn't just "Hey want to do it?"  "Sure lets do it"  (Well technically you can but you will pay for it).

ME2 romances maybe. 

I'm still of the stance that all the ME2 romances left a lot to be desired. Jack's was okay, a lot less shallow than Tali's or Miranda's, but it still had some pacing issues IMO.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 27 janvier 2011 - 05:06 .

[SlottsMachine]

axl99 wrote...

No relationship is worth having if you won't fight for the person you love.

And you did an excellent job of it, much better than I could. So you do what you do best, and I'll come in later with some *high fives*

[Ryzaki]

Elyvern wrote...

I do really think if you go into Jack's romance thinking you need to change her to the drastic length where she looks back on her past and abhors the things she do, then she's really not the type for you.
I like Jack the way she is. Sure, a romance opens up to her the possibilities of a less destructive lifestyle and such. There's no way she won't be influenced by it. But if Jack should change, it should be because she wants to, and not because she's so enarmoured of Shepard she wants to be the best woman for him.

This. If you go into *any* romance trying to change the core of someone (real or imaginary) nine times out of ten it's not going to end well. Its better you find someone whom you think meets up to what you desire in a partner from the get go.

So instead of Jack romance someone who you actually like. Between Miranda and Tali (and Liara and Ashley if you have ME1) there's plenty of other options that may suit your tastes better. Or hell just let your Shep be single.

Mine is. That said he feels like he's on a ship filled with children so that's pretty much the issue right there.

[AntiChri5]

Jack is working for the organisation that kidnapped her when she was a baby and then spent the next ten or so years torturing and experimenting on her.

And you think she will kill you for talking to another woman?

Well somebody has a big ego.

[Mondo47]

Romancing Jack is dangerous and irresponsible and illogical? Love is dangerous and irresponsible and illogical - at least when it's at it's best. Play it safe if you like, but I'll go for burned hands anytime!



Ok, Jack has a lot of negative aspects to her personality, and sure, she doesn't always seem to respond to external influences or intrusions well, but she really isn't anywhere near as off-the-chain as folk seem to think. There's a lot of control in her... it would be so easy for her to just slew over the central reservation into complete maniac territory, but she doesn't. She kills people that are direct threats to freedom or continued existance, or people that fit a pattern of behaviour she associates with eventual betrayal or abandonment (possibly, anyway - we only really have her word on it, and that could easily be a bit overblown to keep people from messing with her to start with). If someone like her wants someone else dead badly enough, it happens. Yet she contents herself with threats and posturing because she doesn't step over the line into complete psychopathy. Jack's pretty damn restrained, when you think about it. She could easily go all Hannibal Lecter, but doesn't. Shepard could come downstairs one morning and the mess hall could look like the f*cking Event Horizon but it never does. Jack excludes herself to avoid losing her temper, and more importantly to avoid being damaged by others. She knows where the line is.



If anything, it's only an irresponsible choice if you encourage her feelings only to squash them. Romancing her to ditch her... she's the only person in the game whose breakup scene is horrible to go through; Miranda is blase, Tali gets a little angry, Liara (perhaps a little sadly) respects your choice and Jack gets her heart broken. Worse that a shot to the head anyday...

[aeetos21]

xedgorex wrote...

 I think she's cute and has redeeming qualities but i think its highly risky and not an all around responsible choice to romance Jack.

She's an admitted murderer, arsonist, thief and all around psychopath. Granted she had a cruddy childhood and all that nonsense, but it doesn't really justify all of her actions. It gives a reason, but not a justification.

Plus, no matter how much you love her and she loves you, she just seems like the chick to blow your brains out the second she thinks you're stepping out on her, whether you are or not.


So tell me, why do you Romance her? Do you pull out the 'people can change' card?

Idk, i'm curious.

I feel like I just stepped into Joss Whedon debate over Buffy's choice in romantic partners.

[Sable Rhapsody]

aeetos21 wrote...

I feel like I just stepped into Joss Whedon debate over Buffy's choice in romantic partners.

Still can't top Ron/Hermione vs. Harry/Hermione.  Or the Avatar the Last Airbender shipping wars.  

[Jarek_Cousland]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

I'm still of the stance that all the ME2 romances left a lot to be desired. Jack's was okay, a lot less shallow than Tali's or Miranda's, but it still had some pacing issues IMO.

Tali's wasnt that shallow. You walk around all your life in a spandex breather suit while being in your early 20's and NOT want to get your....You know...

That and she Worships Shepard.


Mirandas is kinda iffy. She talks about Love, but Sheps response is "Who's talking about love? I just wanna bang you!![Trollface]"


But from what I've gathered is that Jacob/Mirandas romance is "We're hawt lets bang", Tali/Garrus' is "We have history...uhh this is awkward..", and Jack/Thanes is "I'm emotionally damaged and incapable of love, love me."


It's kinda a simple observation. And its not EXACTLY like that but pretty close to be noticable.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...
But from what I've gathered is that Jacob/Mirandas romance is "We're hawt lets bang", Tali/Garrus' is "We have history...uhh this is awkward..", and Jack/Thanes is "I'm emotionally damaged and incapable of love, love me."

Jacob and Miranda's romances are definitely that in the final romance scenes.  And they suffer from some of the most inconsistent writing in the game.  But the dialogue options picked by Shep can change the tone of the romance to something a lot more thoughtful--you just have to tiptoe your way around the fanservice, and it can be frustrating.

I think in general ME2's romances also suffer from having a lot of breadth and not enough depth.  Having six fully-fledged LIs in ME2 and three in ME1 for a total of nine across the series means just about everyone will find something they like, but maybe not with the depth they'd hoped.

[Loki330]

Indeed. People praise the earlier games (read: Baldur's Gate II, Placescape Torment and the NWN series) but there there's.... what? 4? Tops?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Loki330 wrote...

Indeed. People praise the earlier games (read: Baldur's Gate II, Placescape Torment and the NWN series) but there there's.... what? 4? Tops?

4 total in BG, 2 in PS:T (counting the ALIVE ones here), 2 each in the original NWN and HoTU.  I'm not counting NWN2 here since that's Obsidian and they have a very different approach.

To be fair, the Jaheira romance in BG was an example of too much depth.  I think David Gaider said that all the checks and plot triggers and flags made the thing finicky as hell to code, difficult to write, and buggy.   It was why they didn't have time to complete the romances for the female PC.  When the romance becomes a resource sink, that's not good either.  

[Jarek_Cousland]

You can romance Miranda without having Shep sound like a Horny Frat-dude?



Please tell me, I must knowww.

[Hyper Cutter]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

You can romance Miranda without having Shep sound like a Horny Frat-dude?

Please tell me, I must knowww.

For some reason the renegade options are a lot less creepy.

[GuardianAngel470]

The Uncanny wrote...

I don't want her to change. I like her as she is.

A little risk makes things exciting... 

Heavy risk, but the Priiiiize.

Also, @ the OP, I kinda agree with your assessment. I didn't romance her, but from her story about the pair she hung out with, getting a bullet in the brain is a distinct possibility.

I mean, she even says she doesn't need a reason to kill, she just relies on her feeling. So what happens if I'm down in engineering talking to Tali about the Engines that are giving her trouble and Jack decides I'm cheating on her? I die in my sleep man.

Though I wouldn't be against it if I had evidence that she had drastically changed her personality, like in ME3 or something.

If she grew out her hair, I'd jump. Not because of appearance but because of what it would mean for her to cover up the tats on her head. That would be evidence of significant psychological change.

[Nodscouter]

Jack is damn well-written. I hated her, but she is damn well-written all the same.



Then again, basically all ME characters are.

Still, they did a damn fine job on Jack.