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Palaven, Thessia, Arcturus, where are they? (Or: Galaxy map sucks.)


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#26
Zulu_DFA

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RAF1940 wrote...

Something I just noticed: Why is Tuchanka in turian space?

I promise I'm not bashing, I just want to know if there's something I'm not aware of (i.e. turians officially controlling Tuchanka to watch krogan.)

Tuchanka is quarantined by the "Council's Demilitarization Enforcemant Mission" (CDEM). Technically it's under the C-Sec jurisdiction.

But the account of Mordin's covert op to disperse the modified genophage, described how the STG team distracted a Turian patrol to insert Mordin & Co.

And I repeat, I arbitrarily merged the Turian and C-Sec zone of control into one, although the Turian military proper definitely has a separate command.

As of 2185 the political layout may have changed so maybe the Turian zone of control has diminished. The Alliance may have taken over the Citadel, and the CDEM blocade maybe neglected because "What the hell!", said the Turians.

But there mayby any number of unlabeled hubs, that house some peacful and dull Turian Colonies that they keep control of. I wasn't really trying to create the impression that the Alliance is bigger "territorially".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:42 .


#27
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Vaenier wrote...

This map is pretty good.
Bioware has zero consistency in their game. Earth was suppose to have a single connection to the Exodus cluster, and now it grew 3 more in ME2...


I think we should use this map as a blueprint if we wish to construct a more comprehensive map of the ME Galaxy, seeing as it is canon information gleaned from ME1 and ME2's galaxy maps.

I bet the empty-looking lower left quadrant contains the Turian, Asari, and Salarian homeworlds.

And since Arcturus Station is a mere 36 ly from Earth, it would have been in the local cluster:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Bubble

#28
Zulu_DFA

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

This map is pretty good.
Bioware has zero consistency in their game. Earth was suppose to have a single connection to the Exodus cluster, and now it grew 3 more in ME2...


I think we should use this map as a blueprint if we wish to construct a more comprehensive map of the ME Galaxy, seeing as it is canon information gleaned from ME1 and ME2's galaxy maps.

I bet the empty-looking lower left quadrant contains the Turian, Asari, and Salarian homeworlds.

And since Arcturus Station is a mere 36 ly from Earth, it would have been in the local cluster:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Bubble


We could work with the Normandy's map, if not for ME2, which instead of improving it brough some serious goofs.

First of all, Horizon which is supposed to be away from the Alliance space and in the Terminus systems is located in the close middle of the Attican Traverse.

Then Zorya, which has long been the Blue Suns home base is supposed to be in the Skyllian Verge. Yet it's in the part of the Galaxy, where the Human colonies should have never been heard of.

What we actually need is BioWare to issue some kind of official star atlas, only it has to be well thought out, and double checked for colonies on surface of gas giants...

#29
didymos1120

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If you want to know where Arcturus Station is precisely...well, sensibly enough, that'd be right next to the star Arcturus (~36.7 light-years away) in the constellation Boötes:

Image IPB

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 janvier 2011 - 05:21 .


#30
Zulu_DFA

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didymos1120 wrote...

If you want to know where Arcturus Station is precisely...well, sensibly enough, that'd be right next to the star Arcturus (~36.7 light-years away) in the constellation Boötes:

Image IPB


Never doubted that, I'm just saying it would have been nice to have the Arcturus system on the Galaxy map (among other things), even if it weren't allowed to dock/land someplace in there. Screw those who would whine "why we're not allowed to dock", because it's quite obvious why you're not allowed to dock, but it would still boost the understanding of the universe and clear things up.

Also, if Arcturus system with only 3 primary relays is the relay hub of the Local cluster, the ME2 Galaxy map, that has 3 distant clusters connected to the Local cluster, in addition to the Exodus cluster form ME1, making it a total of 4 destinations, is a contradiction to the lore.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 06:14 .


#31
didymos1120

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Zulu_DFA wrote...
Also, if Arcturus system with only 3 primary relays is the relay hub of the Local cluster, the ME2 Galaxy map, that has 3 distant clusters connected to the Local cluster, in addition to the Exodus cluster form ME1, making it a total of 4 destinations, is a contradiction to the lore.


That's just an artifact of the different Galaxy Maps in each game.  In the first, every destination apparently required a hop to the Exodus Cluster first, which is no better lore-wise than the map in ME2.  The Galaxy Map is not the territory. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:07 .


#32
Zulu_DFA

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didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Also, if Arcturus system with only 3 primary relays is the relay hub of the Local cluster, the ME2 Galaxy map, that has 3 distant clusters connected to the Local cluster, in addition to the Exodus cluster form ME1, making it a total of 4 destinations, is a contradiction to the lore.


That's just an artifact of the different Galaxy Maps in each game.  In the first, every destination apparently required a hop to the Exodus Cluster first, which is no better lore-wise than the map in ME2.  The Galaxy Map is not the territory. 



The ME1 map was better lore-wise, becasue "1 out of 3" is not a contradiction. The remaining two destinations (for example, to "Shanxi" and "Elysium" clusters) could be simply chalked off as omitted becasue they weren't tied in to the current plot. The ME2 map created the impossible "4 out of 3" situation, which does clearly show that the Galaxy map is just there for the user interface, and not to support the lore.

In this situation I would seriously prefer, that the Galaxy "map" was taken away altogether, and we had a simple mission selection screen showing all planets available. Something like that in SC2. It would also spare us the idiotic "mine planets to upgrade guns" mechanic. Upgrade/research system in SC2 is also, ironically, more RPG-ish, than in ME2.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:25 .


#33
didymos1120

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Also, if Arcturus system with only 3 primary relays is the relay hub of the Local cluster, the ME2 Galaxy map, that has 3 distant clusters connected to the Local cluster, in addition to the Exodus cluster form ME1, making it a total of 4 destinations, is a contradiction to the lore.


That's just an artifact of the different Galaxy Maps in each game.  In the first, every destination apparently required a hop to the Exodus Cluster first, which is no better lore-wise than the map in ME2.  The Galaxy Map is not the territory. 



The ME1 map was better lore-wise, becasue "1 out of 3" is not a contradiction. The remaining two destinations (for example, to "Shanxi" and "Elysium" clusters) could be simply chalked off as ommitted. The ME2 map created the impossible "4 out of 3" situation, which does clearly show that the Galaxy map is just there for the user interface, and not to support the lore.


The ME2 map doesn't even have the Exodus Cluster on it.  It's impossible for it to line up with the ME1 galaxy map.  Neither one should be taken as anything but a gameplay mechanic.

#34
Zulu_DFA

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didymos1120 wrote...

The ME2 map doesn't even have the Exodus Cluster on it.  It's impossible for it to line up with the ME1 galaxy map.  Neither one should be taken as anything but a gameplay mechanic.


Note: both maps have Eta Hawking cluster (home of Klendagon).

But since what you're saying is what I am saying (in the very first line of the OP), we must agree to agree, and find something we disagree on! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .


#35
Dean_the_Young

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Zulu, you're likable.

#36
Zulu_DFA

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I love you too, Dean.



Mainly for the talent to say things that I want to say the way I want, but fail.

#37
Ieldra

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Nice work with that map. I'll leave it to others to correct or add details, but I can't refrain from mentioning one thing:

The concept of a continuous territory doesn't really apply to Citadel civilization. About 1% of all stars are explored, and the relay hubs are spread out all over the galaxy, which means that Citadel civilization, meaning the set of settled worlds connected by the known part of the mass relay network, consists of bubbles of space around mass relays, separated by great expanses of unknown space. Around each extends a sphere with a number of settled worlds that can be reached in a reasonable time by regular FTL.

Likewise, when we speak of regions like "The Attican Traverse", they aren't really continuous regions of space but groups of these "bubbles" held together by a defineable substructure of the relay network.

All that also means that the expanse of unknown space, covering 99% of the galaxy, could easily contain another Civilization of equal or greater size than Citadel Civilization, without anyone knowing of it. The only reason why that appears unlikely, and why can reasonably assume Citadel Civilization is, if not the only but the biggest conglomerate of worlds settled by intelligent species, is that the Reapers target it instead of something else. Or maybe it does exist and the Reapers target everything at once...

This isn't meant to invalidate or criticize the map, but something to keep in mind when reading it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:43 .


#38
didymos1120

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Zulu_DFA wrote...
But since what you're saying is what I am saying (in the very first line of the OP), we must agree to agree, and find something we disagree on! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]


Hmm, good point.  OK, so I guess we can disagree on whether one of the maps is better lore-wise than the other.  I think both are about equal on that score.  You favor ME1's.  So, disagreed?

#39
Dean_the_Young

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

I love you too, Dean.

Mainly for the talent to say things that I want to say the way I want, but fail.

Whoa, boy. Keep those pants on.

At least until you cook me up a sweet profile picture.

#40
Zulu_DFA

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Nice work with that map. I'll leave it to others to correct or add details, but I can't refrain from mentioning one thing:

The concept of a continuous territory doesn't really apply to Citadel civilization. About 1% of all stars are explored, and the relay hubs are spread out all over the galaxy, which means that Citadel civilization, meaning the set of settled worlds connected by the known part of the mass relay network, consists of bubbles of space around mass relays, separated by great expanses of unknown space. Around each extends a sphere with a number of settled worlds that can be reached in a reasonable time by regular FTL.

Likewise, when we speak of regions like "The Attican Traverse", they
aren't really continuous regions of space but groups of these "bubbles"
held together by a defineable substructure of the relay network.

These of corse have to be kept in mind, but, as I say, it's not actually a star map, but a map of the "Reaper Farm Transit System"

Sovereign said something to the effect of deveolping "along the paths we desire", so it stands to reason, that the Reapers put the relays around not in a chaotic manner, but in a systematic manner. So there must be main lines, "thoroughfares" for the organic raffic, "back street" areas, and a few dead ends.

The "Zones of Control" of course do not include every star system, but rather all active MR hubs and legs within them, which does constitute continous "territories", which are called Citadel Space, Alliance Space, Terminus Systems, etc. IF anything, each of those "dark" regions that haven't been accessed yet is more likely to be eventually accessed by the power that controls the MR hubs in the respective region's proximity.


Ieldra2 wrote...

All that also means that the expanse of unknown space, covering 99% of the galaxy, could easily contain another Civilization of equal or greater size than Citadel Civilization, without anyone knowing of it. The only reason why that appears unlikely, and why can reasonably assume Citadel Civilization is, if not the only but the biggest conglomerate of worlds settled by intelligent species, is that the Reapers target it instead of something else. Or maybe it does exist and the Reapers target everything at once...

That's a nice theory, and something like that, is, in fact, mentioned in the Codex, I believe.

But in any case, to the Citadel civilization it's like a parrallel universe, or another dimension... Quite irrelevant so far.


Ieldra2 wrote...

This isn't meant to invalidate or criticize the map, but something to keep in mind when reading it.

Yeah...

#41
Zulu_DFA

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I love you too, Dean.

Mainly for the talent to say things that I want to say the way I want, but fail.

Whoa, boy. Keep those pants on.

At least until you cook me up a sweet profile picture.

Noted, noted!



didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But since what you're saying is what I am saying (in the very first line of the OP), we must agree to agree, and find something we disagree on! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]


Hmm, good point.  OK, so I guess we can disagree on whether one of the maps is better lore-wise than the other.  I think both are about equal on that score.  You favor ME1's.  So, disagreed?


Oh, yeah! A hundred times! It is my belief that they could take the ME1 map and improve it so that it would fit very well with the lore. But since the lore was trashed in a number of more obvious ways (thermal clips, biotics, protection layers, squad armor, etc.), I can't cling to this particular "Galaxy map" issue.

#42
Spartas Husky

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I love you too, Dean.

Mainly for the talent to say things that I want to say the way I want, but fail.

Whoa, boy. Keep those pants on.

At least until you cook me up a sweet profile picture.

Noted, noted!



didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But since what you're saying is what I am saying (in the very first line of the OP), we must agree to agree, and find something we disagree on! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]


Hmm, good point.  OK, so I guess we can disagree on whether one of the maps is better lore-wise than the other.  I think both are about equal on that score.  You favor ME1's.  So, disagreed?


Oh, yeah! A hundred times! It is my belief that they could take the ME1 map and improve it so that it would fit very well with the lore. But since the lore was trashed in a number of more obvious ways (thermal clips, biotics, protection layers, squad armor, etc.), I can't cling to this particular "Galaxy map" issue.


wait wait... how was it smashed in biotics? the rest were easy to imagine... but how were biotics messed? because of universal cooldown?

#43
Zulu_DFA

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Spartas Husky wrote...

wait wait... how was it smashed in biotics? the rest were easy to imagine... but how were biotics messed? because of universal cooldown?


How can manipulation of gravity explain such spells as "teleport" (aka "charge"), "mind control" (aka "dominate") and "vampirism" (aka "reave")? And how a shielded/armored object can negate a gravity distortion/anomaly (luckilly, this last part is switchable in the "coaleced.ini")?

#44
CanadAvenger

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Apparently I need to read the codex... I thought there was only 1 relay per "hub" that can link (via other relays) to any destination.



Such as Charon > Arcturus > Citadel... It uses whatever the closest relay in the chain is to link further down the chain to get to the destination... When looking at the Mu relay, it was out of position so ships couldn't use it as a link because the coordinates were incorrect.



But primary/secondary relays? Multiple relays for "hub" systems? I am confused.

#45
didymos1120

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CanadAvenger wrote...

But primary/secondary relays? Multiple relays for "hub" systems? I am confused.


That's exactly why the games don't include all that detail. It would just get in the way of the gameplay.  That's also why  you can fly the Normandy to other star systems within seconds or why you never need to stop and discharge the ME core periodically.

Modifié par didymos1120, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .


#46
Aeowyn

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Am I the only one who can't open those pictures? Getting an error.

#47
Destroy Raiden_

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Did you draw that yourself? Soooo basically it's like a bunch of stargates interlinking to spit you out the other end gotcha. Ummm I don't think BW wants us to go to the worlds I mean in ME and ME2 we got to go to our cluster of the world yet we could only stare at Earth so even if BW let us go to Palvin,ect we could only stare at them I guess either A: They have zero clue as to what each world looks like so they decided to leave them out or B: decided too much hate mail would be delivered to them as to how horrible they are for not allowing players to land on said homeworlds.

#48
Archontor

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Given the way mass relays skip so many systems between the start and the destination i would imagine an actual map showing the territories would be more decentralised

#49
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This whole thing confused me as well. the galaxy map wants us to think the Charon relay takes you to the Citadel. Had this been the case, first contact would have been a lot more peaceful, or a lot more bloody