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[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Plenty was added, just not what some people expected. We learned about the nature of the Reaper mind (gestalt), we got an expansion of the idea of how each Reaper is an individual nation (not simply individual gestalt AI, but individual races), we learned that Reapers aren't simply 'genocide for the lols' but do have an evaluation of organic races (species worthy of ascension, which always has connotations of being a good thing, and even going to lengths to preserve a species that they couldn't ascend (the Protheans-into-collectors)), we learned that the Reapers do what they do for a reason that's good to them, not simply 'because they demand it', and we had some significant foreshadowing about Dark Matter and possible galactic decay resulting from it, which is likely tied to the Reapers.

Compared to ME1, we learned a lot more about the Reapers: what they are, and parts of why they do what they do.

This. Definitely this. One mistake I think people often make when claiming the Reapers were 'machines' is that they confuse their perception of facts with the facts themselves. We thought the Reapers were machines based on the ancient legends, Vigil, Saren, the Geth, etc, but Sovereign never actually refers to himself as a 'machine'. He does look down on organic life, but then he treats the Geth in much the same fashion; neither has actually achieved the pinnacle of Reaper existence, which Sovereign claims we cannot fathom.

Mass Effect 2 shows us that Reapers are in fact organic/inorganic hybrids, but nowhere in Mass Effect did we have the full grasp of the situation.

Problem is this raises more questions than it answers.  Way more:

We learned:  Reaper interest in organic life
Answer:  reproduction.  Reapers need organics to make more Reapers

Unanswered questions:

1: While I can go with the idea of machines with organic components, how does converting whole species into machines work?  How does human become smoothie become Reaper?  For that matter, why organic metal at all?  THe geth do fine with more standard metals.

2 What is it about humans that the Reaper find so special anyway?  Is Bioware running with this "genetic diversity" stuff?  If so what good does that do a Reaper when genetics really don't matter to them.  I mean what does the genetic diversity of a species made into smoothie then turned into some kind of organic metal really mean?

3) Reapers have a gestalt mind?  Gestalt of what?  The creatures pureed into the Reaper?  How does that work?  Even if that was possible, why would they be willing to join up with the Reapers?  Wouldn't all those minds in proximity simply go mad? (unless it came from a species with some kind of hive mind or group conciousness already)  Ortry to get revenge on the beings that did this to them?  Or are they indoctrinated?  In which case how do they retain their cognitive functions?  Or are the Reaper minds programmed?  In which case why so many on a single platform?  Are thy like geth in that the more the merrier? 

4) Often brought up on the forums, Why now?  Why not wait until the culling is in full swing?  How did Harbringer think the Collectors could possibly get away with this?  People were already starting to notice after two years.  If EDI was right (and you know she was) and it would take million of more humans to complete the Reaper, it was going to take years or even decades to complete the project.  The Terminus would be frakking empty and COuncil space would have to be hit.  Was this part of a bigger plan.  If so what was it?

5) Also brought up sometimes:  What interest does a race of immortal machines that spend tens of millenia at a time hibernating in dark space have in reproducing?  There are already hundreds, perhaps thousand of them.  And they live forever, or as good as.  I can see the occasional repacing one that does irreperably break down. But this appears to be a regular cycle of adding to their numbers.  Not replacement. 

IF ME 2 is going to make any kind of sense, ME 3 is going to have to address these issues.  In addition ME 3 is going to have to:

1) Figure out some way to deal with the Reapers.  Either through the information gleaned in the first two games or uncover something we haven't learned yet

2) Assemble a coalition of some or all of the various galactic powers to meet the Reapers.  The groundwork was somewhat laid out in ME 2, but that's all it was, groundwork.

2a Certain galactic powers are going to have to be convinced that the Reapers exist at all, and that Shepard isn't a crazed traitor.

3) Distribute the information/weapons gained by Shepard to the relevant parties.  TIme will be needed to spread this around to those that need it

4) And of course, the Reapers themselves must be dealt with.  On a temporary or permasnent basis.   Possible extra:  learning how they came about to begin with.

This is a lot to be left on the plate of the final volume.  Empire Strikes Back at least Luke learned how to use the Force.
As a "it should would be nice" bonus, wouldn't it also be cool if ME 3 finally dealt with Shepard dying and being ressurected, as well as now being a cybernetic organism him/herself?  Just sayin

Modifié par iakus, 28 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .

[Sentox6]

Phaedon wrote...

That is of course one of many issues with the main plot. There are an abundance when we target the main plot. This article highlights the majority and you discredit it not through rebuttal but instead by way of citing it "unsuccessful." Can you refute the accusations of which portions of the game is riddled with plotholes? If you cannot, then you have no argument.

Like which one, the ridiculous accusation that Shepard's ressurection would be impossible? Don't try claiming that what this community thinks as plotholes and retcons are, because this community is mostly people claiming to know everything without knowing anything.

No offense, but this is where I seriously begin to doubt that you even read the articles in question, or at least even paid any attention. There is no assertion therein that Shepard's resurrection would be impossible (just that it's rather contrived). I don't think that you somehow must agree with it, but you keep acting like there's no substance to it, and dragging the discussion into one about the necessary structure of the second act. I don't care in ME2 fulfills that role, because even if it does, it does so badly.

I was going to transcribe a bunch of points from the article, but then I realised I shouldn't have to. If you don't want to read it and debate its contents, that's entirely fine, just please stop dragging the thread offtopic.

[Slayer299]

frylock23 wrote...

IMO, ME2 would have worked out much better as the beginning of the trilogy. Our problem is to stop these mysterious Collectors and that's the focus of the game. We gather our crew together with the idea of stopping the Collectors. We find out along the way that the Collectors are genetically altered Protheans, a race everyone thought extinct. So we get the question of what happened? Why are they changed like this? Then, we find out via the final mission that there is another actor, a bigger actor involved. We get a fleeting glimpse of Harby and the game ends with the menacing feeling that doom is approaching.

Wow! Now that's a novel idea and one that might have made more sense for the ME trilogy in the long run, depending on how they worked it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Slayer299 wrote...

@Dean-the-Younger - Whoever thought that the Reapers wiped out spacefaing civilizations for the "lulz"? It was always pretty clear that they had a reasoning for it, we just didn't know what it could be.

...alright, I admit 'for the lulz' is a figure of speech some people not catch.

In this case it isn't literally for laughter, but rather an expression of how there was no apparent reason for it.

How do you see a species being completely altered on a genetic level into something completely else as "preserving a species".

Ship of Theseus paradox.

And isn't that true of virtually every race, that they're doing things for a reason that's good for them? That's hardly an exposition on anything with the Reapers.

Not really. It's perfectly possible to be an illogical actor. In fact, most machines qualify: they don't have a motivation for anything, they simply do it because that's what they were programmed to do. Machine intelligence doesn't need darwinian motivation as a reason to act.

The statement about Dark Matter I will agree has some significance, although the jury is out on whether the aging process on those 2 stars is due (somehow) to our influence or the Reapers.

Well, since our influence is dependant on the influence of the Reapers (by killing off all our prior competitors, giving us ME tech), it would always come back to Reaper influence.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

1: While I can go with the idea of machines with organic components, how does converting whole species into machines work? 

With Reaper technology.

How does human become smoothie become Reaper?

Through Reaper technology.

  For that matter, why organic metal at all?  THe geth do fine with more standard metals.

Reaper-technology 'distilation of essence'.

The goal isn't to build machines, in which case any material could do. It isn't even about building a lot of identical reapers. It's about 'ascending a species' into a higher, (singular) form.

2 What is it about humans that the Reaper find so special anyway?  Is Bioware running with this "genetic diversity" stuff?

Partly that, since they did bring up that stat, but it's because humans meet a number of qualifications: they have 'good enough' genetics/proof of worth to be made into Reapers (proof of worth possibly demonstrated by Shepard's actions), but also don't include fatal flaws that disqualify most of the other species (genetic 'weaknesses', lack of population, etc.).

If so what good does that do a Reaper when genetics really don't matter to them.  I mean what does the genetic diversity of a species made into smoothie then turned into some kind of organic metal really mean?

By Harbinger's remarks and EDI's speculation onto the Collectors, the ability to be turned into Reapers in the first place. Not all species qualify, for various reasons.

3) Reapers have a gestalt mind?  Gestalt of what?  The creatures pureed into the Reaper?  How does that work? 

Yes, presumably the species composing the Reaper, by advanced Reaper technology.

Even if that was possible, why would they be willing to join up with the Reapers?  Wouldn't all those minds in proximity simply go mad? (unless it came from a species with some kind of hive mind or group conciousness already)  Ortry to get revenge on the beings that did this to them?  Or are they indoctrinated?  In which case how do they retain their cognitive functions?  Or are the Reaper minds programmed?  In which case why so many on a single platform?  Are thy like geth in that the more the merrier? 

Debates about technological singularity... or a built-in process of compromising 'free will': Reapers can hack AI, and indoctrinate organics, so why shouldn't their own creations believe and accept that being a Reaper is best?

4) Often brought up on the forums, Why now?  Why not wait until the culling is in full swing?  How did Harbringer think the Collectors could possibly get away with this?  People were already starting to notice after two years.  If EDI was right (and you know she was) and it would take million of more humans to complete the Reaper, it was going to take years or even decades to complete the project.  The Terminus would be frakking empty and COuncil space would have to be hit.  Was this part of a bigger plan.  If so what was it?

This one is pretty obvious: because Sovereign was killed, and the Reapers resorted to a backup plan/option before making the journey to dark space themselves.

It wouldn't have taken decades: a single successful attack on Earth would have done far more than all the Terminus colonies put together. And with the heretic virus aimed and closing in at trumping the True Geth and giving the Reapers a full race to work as an army, they could make such an attack as well.

5) Also brought up sometimes:  What interest does a race of immortal machines that spend tens of millenia at a time hibernating in dark space have in reproducing?  There are already hundreds, perhaps thousand of them.  And they live forever, or as good as.  I can see the occasional repacing one that does irreperably break down. But this appears to be a regular cycle of adding to their numbers.  Not replacement. 

This is an open question.

And a possible answer is that the Reapers do place some value on life, not for life itself and not to the point that the Cycle is wrong, but that 'worthy' species should be preserved.

It isn't reproduction of existing Reapers, but a form of preservation of organic life cycles.

As a "it should would be nice" bonus, wouldn't it also be cool if ME 3 finally dealt with Shepard dying and being ressurected, as well as now being a cybernetic organism him/herself?  Just sayin

Not really.

[Slayer299]

Ship of Theseus paradox.

Well, that was one I had to look up having never heard of it before. But as i understand it has to do the question of can an object retain its uniqueness after having had its parts replaced, I think that your implication with this to smoothified species is stretching that logic a bit too far.

Not really. It's perfectly possible to be an illogical actor. In fact, most machines qualify: they don't have a motivation for anything, they simply do it because that's what they were programmed to do. Machine intelligence doesn't need darwinian motivation as a reason to act.

True, but how then would you apply your statement before to other races? As a whole most individuals will act in their own best interests and this follows to governments/officials who often act in their own best interests and not the otherway around.

[Sentox6]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It wouldn't have taken decades: a single successful attack on Earth would have done far more than all the Terminus colonies put together. And with the heretic virus aimed and closing in at trumping the True Geth and giving the Reapers a full race to work as an army, they could make such an attack as well.

I don't buy it, myself.

• If one well-upgraded Normandy can take out the Collector ship, they're not punching through the Alliance fleet (and Lord knows how many planetary defenses).
• They've abducted hundreds of thousands of colonists. I will never, ever buy that there wouldn't be an incredible amount of noise raised in Alliance space about this (there are about 4 million U.S. expatriates; abduct a few hundred thousand of them and see what happens). But ignoring this, it's clearly stated they'd need millions to complete their Human Reaper. So why bother? Inevitably they're going to have to hit Earth one way or the other, so why tip their hand?
• If it turns out to be an actual Human Reaper (as far as the bottom half goes) what is it going to do? Will they strap rocket boosters to it and let it fly around like Superman? Maybe they can make it very realistic and embarass the Alliance into submission. Let's face it, it's not an efficient design; it's the opposite of what these cold, calculating antagonists who consider themselves far above organic life should be doing.
• All we can speculate is that they still intended to open the Citadel relay (ME2 hasn't given us anything else to go on). In which case their plan was to try the approach that failed the first time? I'm all for backups, but odds are if they had rounded up that sentient army they had watching paint dry out in the galactic core and attacked along with the Geth in the first place, the backup wouldn't have been needed.

Then there's the more simple problems with the plot. For example, where did Mordin get that bug from? Apparently there's no evidence at the abducted colonies, yet there's a gaint alien ship that apparently takes off using rocket boosters. I guess enormous launch craters are common place.

At any rate, some of your speculation over the whole organic synthesis thing is interesting, but that's half the problem. It's neither explained or really acknowledged. The characters just postulate that this must be the method of Reaper production and move on. Isn't this kind of a BFD? Yet it's almost accepted at face value. I'm not asking the second act to resolve anything, I just resent being left with more questions than I entered with.

Modifié par Sentox6, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[Aigyl]

I don't think its fair to pass complete judgement on ME2's plot until we play ME3.

ME1 was a self-contained story that could function fine on its own in-case the game tanked and a trilogy wouldn't be made. ME2 was never trying to have a main story that could fully function on its own like ME1 or even rival ME1's, it is dependent on other installments in the trilogy.

The human reaper design... could've been better executed, to put it lightly, but that does not diminish its significance to the trilogy. There are questions unanswered but I don't see how this is a problem if they are answered in ME3, 'tis a cliffhanger. Even the codex in-game says the human reaper is yet to be explained. Compared to Dragon Age's Dark Ritual plot that's been left hanging and have people screaming for MOAR, Baby Termy is pretty light stuff when it comes to yet-to-be-answered plot lines.

Casey Hudson all but said in an interview in June that answers for the human reaper are coming in time. Even answers for its robot skeleton design. Which the explanation for will either be pure genius or utterly hilarious. It's win-win!

[Dean_the_Young]

Slayer299 wrote...

Ship of Theseus paradox.

Well, that was one I had to look up having never heard of it before. But as i understand it has to do the question of can an object retain its uniqueness after having had its parts replaced, I think that your implication with this to smoothified species is stretching that logic a bit too far.

It blends into the cyborg paradox as well: is a cyborg who replaces all the organic parts with machines still human?

True, but how then would you apply your statement before to other races? As a whole most individuals will act in their own best interests and this follows to governments/officials who often act in their own best interests and not the otherway around.

The Reapers don't need to follow this, however, so the 'they do this for thier own good' argument need not have applied to them.

In fact, and I should have clarified, I don't think it does apply to them: I expect they're less concerned about their own good and rather the good of a sustainable galaxy. In which case they are a 'they do this for the good of sustainable galactic life', which is not indicated in any way in ME1, where they were given no reason for acting like they did.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 janvier 2011 - 07:49 .

[Ieldra]

I've read the texts, and I wholeheartedly with this:

If you choose the paragon option, Shepard decides to blow up the base saying, “I won’t let fear compromise who I am.” And later, “We’ll beat [the Reapers] without sacrificing the soul of our species.”

I find this line of reasoning to be lazy and infantile to the point of being offensive.

[...]There is no reason to blow this thing up. Doing so is the most idiotic and self-defeating decision you could possibly make.

The way the game portrays keeping the base as evil is outright retarded. Kudos for the author to put this in words so strong I've never dared to use them here.

As for the human Reaper, I see it as a contrivance to justify all that body horror we get to see in the game, played for effect rather than content. If they want me to see the Reapers and the reasoning for their plans as anything but a parody, they'll have to come up with something better. If my reaction to the first glance at the final boss is "You can't be serious", followed by a series of guffaws, then it's something that needs a lot of work to retcon into something I can take seriously.

As for Casey Hudson. Is this Casey "There are no lesbian romances in Mass Effect" Hudson? Casey "Miranda is a simpler character" Hudson? Yeah. I'll believe everything he says. How could I not?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2011 - 08:01 .

[msantos]

Sentox6 wrote...

And again, this really makes the Paragon ending look ridiculous, because if you take it, you destroy your first chance at getting some insight in Reaper tech and give the finger to TIM, so now you have nothing to work with and even less resources at your disposal than ME1. Wut.

Interesting point, but how so?

Unless we ignore the periphery information provided by the mass effect novels, we already know that TIM will get a great deal of  technical insight into the reaper tech EVEN if Shepard fully destroys the collector base.  
How else would he have implanted his former operative sometime after the suicide mission?  

Yes, this also implies that regardless of whether the player chooses the paragon or renegade option the results are essentially the same as far as the big picture is concerned.  But even though many will consider the Paragon option as useless and pointless, I am confident that there will be measurable benefits to the paragon decision later on.  Wouldn't that be the point and if so, then would that make the renegade option less attractive?

Cheers

Modifié par msantos, 28 janvier 2011 - 08:05 .

[Sentox6]

msantos wrote...
Interesting point, but how so?

Unless we ignore the periphery information provided by the mass effect novels, we already know that TIM will get a great deal of  technical insight into the reaper tech EVEN if Shepard fully destroys the collector base.  
How else would he have implanted his former operative sometime after the suicide mission?

Isn't that kind of the problem right there? Having an ancillary novel that essentially gives you hints about the future and casts the decision in a new light is basically metagaming in the extreme. The ingame decision should stand on its own (Shepard doesn't exactly have the benefit of reading the novel), and it's essentially presented as keep the base for Cerberus to study or do the The Right Thing and blow it up. That's how it should be judged.

Yes, this also implies that regardless of whether the player chooses the paragon or renegade option the results are essentially the same as far as the big picture is concerned.  But even though many will consider the Paragon option as useless and pointless, I am confident that there will be measurable benefits to the paragon decision later on.  Wouldn't that be the point and if so, then would that make the renegade option less attractive?

You would expect it to have some sort of payoff in ME3 (unless Bioware are better writers than I think and it really does turn out to be a bad choice). That doesn't change the fact that it's still a ridiculous false binary where the "good" option is just forced martyrdom and primitive superstition.

The problem for me is that it all just boils down to "I'm picking Paragon; even though it makes no sense, I know there has to be a payoff since it's a videogame".

Modifié par Sentox6, 28 janvier 2011 - 08:26 .

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

1: While I can go with the idea of machines with organic components, how does converting whole species into machines work? [/quote]With Reaper technology.[/quote]

Space magic?  Like the Lazarus Project? 

[quote]


[quote]How does human become smoothie become Reaper?[/quote]Through Reaper technology.[/quote]

What I'm more specifically asking is "How does organic components get turned into metal yet retain whatever it is that Reapers are after?  What's the common thread?"

[quote]
Reaper-technology 'distilation of essence'.[/quote]

And that "essence" would be...?

[quote]
The goal isn't to build machines, in which case any material could do. It isn't even about building a lot of identical reapers. It's about 'ascending a species' into a higher, (singular) form.[/quote]

"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it"

[quote]
Partly that, since they did bring up that stat, but it's because humans meet a number of qualifications: they have 'good enough' genetics/proof of worth to be made into Reapers (proof of worth possibly demonstrated by Shepard's actions), but also don't include fatal flaws that disqualify most of the other species (genetic 'weaknesses', lack of population, etc.). [/quote]

And what does any of that have to do with a metallic body which, goofy form aside, has nothing to do with the base species?  What quality is within human DNA which cannot be replicated, yet is important to a race of immortal metallic dark-space dwelling synthetic life forms?

[quote]
Yes, presumably the species composing the Reaper, by advanced Reaper technology.[/quote]

So, do all thes eminds remember being human (or whatever)?  Are Lilith's memories intact?  If Kelley Chambers got smoothified, does the Reaper baby recall being a ship's counceler who "loves" aliens?  Does it remember being Gabby, or the rest of the crew and colonists?

[quote]
Debates about technological singularity... or a built-in process of compromising 'free will': Reapers can hack AI, and indoctrinate organics, so why shouldn't their own creations believe and accept that being a Reaper is best?[/quote]

Because indoctrination and other forms of mind control inhibit cognitive functions.  That's why Saren was never fully indoctrinated. That's why TIM opposed putting a control chip in Shepard's brain.  If Reapers indoctrinate their "newborns" then they are effectively lobotomizing themselves.  If they aren't, then why would a human Reaper willingly side with the Reapers that pureed their physical bodies?

[quote]
It wouldn't have taken decades: a single successful attack on Earth would have done far more than all the Terminus colonies put together. And with the heretic virus aimed and closing in at trumping the True Geth and giving the Reapers a full race to work as an army, they could make such an attack as well.[/quote]

Funny how the game itself never made that connection.

Me, I have wondered if the Heretic geth and Collectors had any contact.  Might have made a good talking point with Tali or Legion (I would have imagined Tali's loyalty quest stating out as visiting the flotilla to ask her father about it only to find the flotilla in an uproar after the Alerai.  But this potential connection literally never comes up.  The Heretic plan appears to have been wholly seperate from the Collector project.

This leaves the Collectors with a single cruiser to invade the human homeworld.  Again, wouldn't it have been a little easier to harvest humans with say a dozen or so full-fledged Reapers to back them up?

[quote]
As a "it should would be nice" bonus, wouldn't it also be cool if ME 3 finally dealt with Shepard dying and being ressurected, as well as now being a cybernetic organism him/herself?  Just sayin[/quote]Not really.

And why not? The "Why" is as important as the "What" isn't it?

Modifié par iakus, 28 janvier 2011 - 08:25 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Problem is this raises more questions than it answers.  Way more:

We learned:  Raper interest in organic life
Answer:  reproduction.  Reapers need organics to make more Reapers

Unanswered questions:

1: While I can go with the idea of machines with organic components, how does converting whole species into machines work?  How does human become smoothie become Reaper?  For that matter, why organic metal at all?  THe geth do fine with more standard metals.

Ah, but this ultimately is unnecessary. Would it have been nice if we learned how organics are turned into machines? Yes, but it still remains unnecessary exposition. We (the audience) don't need to know how humans become Reapers any more than we need to know the technology behind indoctrination and husks. They are both contained within the realms of 'Reaper technology' which falls within Clarke's Third Law.

Imagine the magic system in Dragon Age, which tells us that both teleportation and resurrection are 'impossible'. There is an internal logic for how magic works which Mages understand, but is not necessary to explain to the audience. We don't need to know how teleportation/resurrection works, only that they do not work. Reaper technology is much the same domain; it occupies sufficiently advanced technology.

2 What is it about humans that the Reaper find so special anyway?  Is Bioware running with this "genetic diversity" stuff?  If so what good does that do a Reaper when genetics really don't matter to them.  I mean what does the genetic diversity of a species made into smoothie then turned into some kind of organic metal really mean?

Well, yes and no. There are multiple criteria to consider in making a Reaper. One has to do with the desired species' dna being compatible, while the second has to do with some race 'proving itself' worthy of what the Reapers consider ascension. Shepard's key role in the destruction of Sovereign served to gain the interest of the Reapers, where before humanity was treated as just another race.

3) Reapers have a gestalt mind?  Gestalt of what?  The creatures pureed into the Reaper?  How does that work?  Even if that was possible, why would they be willing to join up with the Reapers?  Wouldn't all those minds in proximity simply go mad? (unless it came from a species with some kind of hive mind or group conciousness already)  Ortry to get revenge on the beings that did this to them?  Or are they indoctrinated?  In which case how do they retain their cognitive functions?  Or are the Reaper minds programmed?  In which case why so many on a single platform?  Are thy like geth in that the more the merrier? 

Well, given all the other Reapers in existence, we can infer that most of them do not hold any ill will at being turned into machines, otherwise there probably would not be any Reapers at present. Rather, I got the intention that this was one of those "You won't appreciate being a Reaper until you are a Reaper" type situations. However, I am extremely curious as to how exactly Reaper conciousness works.

4) Often brought up on the forums, Why now?  Why not wait until the culling is in full swing?  How did Harbringer think the Collectors could possibly get away with this?  People were already starting to notice after two years.  If EDI was right (and you know she was) and it would take million of more humans to complete the Reaper, it was going to take years or even decades to complete the project.  The Terminus would be frakking empty and COuncil space would have to be hit.  Was this part of a bigger plan.  If so what was it?

Certainly an understandable concern, but one which hopefully will be answered. If the popular theory on the forums has any degree of truth (that it was intended as a new vanguard to release the Reapers), it makes quite a bit of sense if this is true. Following Mass Effect, the Reapers had no efficient means of reaching the Citadel. Even with the potential attention of humanity, they needed some method of passing through the relay; the Reapers are desperate at this point. However they plan on getting back, clearly the long way is not desirable.

5) Also brought up sometimes:  What interest does a race of immortal machines that spend tens of millenia at a time hibernating in dark space have in reproducing?  There are already hundreds, perhaps thousand of them.  And they live forever, or as good as.  I can see the occasional repacing one that does irreperably break down. But this appears to be a regular cycle of adding to their numbers.  Not replacement. 

Well, keep in mind Reapers are not simply machines, but rather machine-organic hybrids. To your question I might ask, why not reproduction? This actually was what I enjoyed about it; in Mass Effect 1, Reapers implied that we could not possibly understand the purposes of the cycle, but in Mass Effect 2 it's revealed that it's the most basic organic instinct. I thought it was a great stroke of irony. Some say that the purpose of life is self-fulfilling and needs no other explanation.

This is a lot to be left on the plate of the final volume.  Empire Strikes Back at least Luke learned how to use the Force.
As a "it should would be nice" bonus, wouldn't it also be cool if ME 3 finally dealt with Shepard dying and being ressurected, as well as now being a cybernetic organism him/herself?  Just sayin

Well, personally I'm hoping to find out in ME3 that Illusive Man actually collaborated with the Collectors to get Shepard killed so TIM could pull him into his service, but yes Shepard's cybernetics do need to be addressed.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 janvier 2011 - 08:27 .

[Iakus]

Aigyl wrote...

I don't think its fair to pass complete judgement on ME2's plot until we play ME3.

ME1 was a self-contained story that could function fine on its own in-case the game tanked and a trilogy wouldn't be made. ME2 was never trying to have a main story that could fully function on its own like ME1 or even rival ME1's, it is dependent on other installments in the trilogy.

The human reaper design... could've been better executed, to put it lightly, but that does not diminish its significance to the trilogy. There are questions unanswered but I don't see how this is a problem if they are answered in ME3, 'tis a cliffhanger. Even the codex in-game says the human reaper is yet to be explained. Compared to Dragon Age's Dark Ritual plot that's been left hanging and have people screaming for MOAR, Baby Termy is pretty light stuff when it comes to yet-to-be-answered plot lines.

Casey Hudson all but said in an interview in June that answers for the human reaper are coming in time. Even answers for its robot skeleton design. Which the explanation for will either be pure genius or utterly hilarious. It's win-win!

All three games were supposed to stand on their own.  ME 1 does.  ME 2 does not.  I can, and have, played ME 1 over and over, playing a complete game unto itself and also the first chapter of a larger tale.  ME 2 seems more like the prologue to ME 3 (which I guess makes it ME 1.5, and ME 3 ME2, or something)  The Dark Ritual is clearly part of Morrigan's story, not the Warden's.  And I don't begrudge missing that any more than I begrudge not seeing Wrex unite the krogan.  Cool of we got to see it, but not vital for the story in front of us.

Even if ME 3 answers all my questions and makes all ME 2 seem logical and reasonable, that still means ME 2 cannot stand on its own without the sequel.  Good for ME 3.  Not so good for ME2.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

All three games were supposed to stand on their own.  ME 1 does.  ME 2 does not.  I can, and have, played ME 1 over and over, playing a complete game unto itself and also the first chapter of a larger tale.  ME 2 seems more like the prologue to ME 3 (which I guess makes it ME 1.5, and ME 3 ME2, or something)  The Dark Ritual is clearly part of Morrigan's story, not the Warden's.  And I don't begrudge missing that any more than I begrudge not seeing Wrex unite the krogan.  Cool of we got to see it, but not vital for the story in front of us.

Even if ME 3 answers all my questions and makes all ME 2 seem logical and reasonable, that still means ME 2 cannot stand on its own without the sequel.  Good for ME 3.  Not so good for ME2.

See, I'm very much against this philosophy, regardless of what Bioware may have said. In designing a sequel, I don't understand how an audience can fully understand its significance without experiencing the previous installment.

It's almost like suggesting that someone should be able to watch Episode VI without Episodes IV or V. Even if you do manage to understand the events; the actual significance of the overall story will be lost to you. Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3 should all be able to rely on each other in creating a story.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...
Ah, but this ultimately is unnecessary. Would it have been nice if we learned how organics are turned into machines? Yes, but it still remains unnecessary exposition. We (the audience) don't need to know how humans become Reapers any more than we need to know the technology behind indoctrination and husks. They are both contained within the realms of 'Reaper technology' which falls within Clarke's Third Law.

Except it goes towards "Why humans"  What makes humans suitable but not Protheans?  What does the genophage do that makes krogan "wasted potential" or why are turians "too primative" (assuming those are canon assessments)  What goes into the process that makes humans "worthy" of smoothying but no other race?

Imagine the magic system in Dragon Age, which tells us that both teleportation and resurrection are 'impossible'. There is an internal logic for how magic works which Mages understand, but is not necessary to explain to the audience. We don't need to know how teleportation/resurrection works, only that they do not work. Reaper technology is much the same domain; it occupies sufficiently advanced technology.

True. But we do need to know why mages are more suceptible to demonic possession, why blood magic is so reviled.  And it's nice to know why dwarves cannot become mages.

Well, yes and no. There are multiple criteria to consider in making a Reaper. One has to do with the desired species' dna being compatible, while the second has to do with some race 'proving itself' worthy of what the Reapers consider ascension. Shepard's key role in the destruction of Sovereign served to gain the interest of the Reapers, where before humanity was treated as just another race.

How do we know this?  That's purely TIM's speculation.

That's one aggravating thing about ME 2:  all the speculation that is assumed to be true.  By EDI.  By TIM.  By Shepard.  The big reveal in ME 1 showed us that assuming something most certainly does not make it so.

Certainly an understandable concern, but one which hopefully will be answered. If the popular theory on the forums has any degree of truth (that it was intended as a new vanguard to release the Reapers), it makes quite a bit of sense if this is true. Following Mass Effect, the Reapers had no efficient means of reaching the Citadel. Even with the potential attention of humanity, they needed some method of passing through the relay; the Reapers are desperate at this point. However they plan on getting back, clearly the long way is not desirable.

It may be a popular theory, but it still makes no sense.  Sovereign had a geth fleet at his back and a backdoor into the Citadel that no one knew about.  This new Reaper, assuming it could be built without mobilizing the entire Terminus and Citadel against the Collectors, had one cruiser and no secret back entrance.

Well, personally I'm hoping to find out in ME3 that Illusive Man actually collaborated with the Collectors to get Shepard killed so TIM could pull him into his service, but yes Shepard's cybernetics do need to be addressed.

Yes, given that Shepard is now a machine-human hybrid.  In essence a human Reaper, but without the whole "I am the vanguard of your destruction" bit (unless you're playing a vanguard and tearing through the Terminus System mercs.  But I digress)

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

See, I'm very much against this philosophy, regardless of what Bioware may have said. In designing a sequel, I don't understand how an audience can fully understand its significance without experiencing the previous installment.

It's almost like suggesting that someone should be able to watch Episode VI without Episodes IV or V. Even if you do manage to understand the events; the actual significance of the overall story will be lost to you. Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3 should all be able to rely on each other in creating a story.

I'm all for building on what came before.  In fact, I think ME 2 should have reference more towards ME 1.  What I dislike is relying on future installments to explain what already happened.

I don't mind having to see Episode IV to fully understand Episode V.  Being able to watch Episode V and enjoy it on it's own is great too.  But having to See Episode VI to fully appreaciate what's going on in Episode V (or IV for that matter) is Not A Good Thing.

[Sentox6]

Il Divo wrote...
Well, keep in mind Reapers are not simply machines, but rather machine-organic hybrids. To your question I might ask, why not reproduction? This actually was what I enjoyed about it; in Mass Effect 1, Reapers implied that we could not possibly understand the purposes of the cycle, but in Mass Effect 2 it's revealed that it's the most basic organic instinct. I thought it was a great stroke of irony. Some say that the purpose of life is self-fulfilling and needs no other explanation.

I thought it was a horrible, horrible deterioration of Reaper characterisation. Antagonists with shallow motives are a penny a dozen. I don't want something as simple as "Reapers are biologically driven to 'reproduce'" just so I can smirk at their conceit.

We've exchanged a truly interesting question for an array of more mundane and needlessly obscure ones.

[Talogrungi]

ME2's storyline wasn't awesome from a stand-alone perspective, and it wasn't awesome from the perspective of a sequel either.

We're not done yet, though. It is impossible to properly judge ME2 until we see how (or even IF) it ties into ME3 and the ME story as a whole.

[Il Divo]

Sentox6 wrote...

I thought it was a horrible, horrible deterioration of Reaper characterisation. Antagonists with shallow motives are a penny a dozen. I don't want something as simple as "Reapers are biologically driven to 'reproduce'" just so I can smirk at their conceit.

We've exchanged a truly interesting question for an array of more mundane and needlessly obscure ones.

But what would you have preferred? This is a perfect example of Bioware being unable to please everyone. The Reapers being 'impossible to understand' was a reference to Lovecraftian horror. Part of the Reaper intrigue came from not knowing their motives, but this would lead to one of two possibilities:

1) Bioware never giving us an explanation to keep the Reapers 'mysterious', but would alienate quite a few fans (myself included).

2) Bioware giving an explanation which will seem less appealing because it doesn't meet our expectations for what we can imagine.

I personally find Reapers needing organics to procreate to be a suitably dark motivation while still explaining to us what they are actually doing. A truly interesting question only remains interesting until we obtain the answer, and I think that is part of what is upsetting many fans.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 janvier 2011 - 09:06 .

[Sentox6]

Il Divo wrote...
What would you have preferred? This is a perfect example of Bioware being unable to please everyone. The Reapers being 'impossible to understand' was a reference to Lovecraftian horror. Part of the Reaper intrigue came from not knowing their motives, but this would lead to one of two possibilities:

1) Bioware never giving us an explanation to keep the Reapers 'mysterious', but would alienate quite a few fans (myself included).

2) Bioware giving an explanation which will seem less appealing because it doesn't meet our expectations for what we can imagine.

I personally find Reapers needing organics to procreate to be a suitably dark motivation while still explaining to us what they are actually doing.

I'd take option 1 any day of the week. When every answer will be disappointing, no answer is preferable. I read/watch a extremely popular but not particularly intellectual manga/anime that I will not name. It has one particularly redeeming quality: the main villain, whose origin and motives have never really been expounded upon. As a result, he's by far one of the most interesting characters I've encountered in any medium. YMMV.

Even, so I could put up with the organic reproduction explanation if it wasn't elucidated in the hilariously comical form of the literal human reaper.

[Dean_the_Young]

For future reference, please avoid dots: they are a **** and a half to work around. Just use - instead.

Sentox6 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It wouldn't have taken decades: a single successful attack on Earth would have done far more than all the Terminus colonies put together. And with the heretic virus aimed and closing in at trumping the True Geth and giving the Reapers a full race to work as an army, they could make such an attack as well.

I don't buy it, myself.
[list=1][*]If one well-upgraded Normandy can take out the Collector ship, they're not punching through the Alliance fleet (and Lord knows how many planetary defenses).

That's what the Geth fleet to be virused is for, remember. The Collector Vessel, besides far stronger than 'just' one well-upgraded super-ship piloted by the best pilot in the galaxy with Commander Shepard in the backseat, doesn't need to fight on its own.

[*]They've abducted hundreds of thousands of colonists. I will never, ever buy that there wouldn't be an incredible amount of noise raised in Alliance space about this (there are about 4 million U.S. expatriates; abduct a few hundred thousand of them and see what happens).

The difference between US expatriates and the Terminus colonies is that US expatriates both (a) still identify with and are connected to the US, and ( generally don't break ties and go out to dangerous areas where disaster is not unknown. Compare the attention US deaths in Iraq (less than yearly traffic accidents) versus, say, the actual millions death toll of the Congo, and no one pays attention to the Congo.

[*] But ignoring this, it's clearly stated they'd need millions to complete their Human Reaper. So why bother? Inevitably they're going to have to hit Earth one way or the other, so why tip their hand?

It should be obvious that they weren't tipping their hand (except to such a group as Cerberus), so a simple answer is 'they need a little more than they would likely get from just Earth', and they are also working on a timeline distinct to themselves. In which case, their expectations that the payoff for hitting Earth later, and getting the other margins now would be better (more successful)

[*]


[*]

[*]If it turns out to be an actual Human Reaper (as far as the bottom half goes) what is it going to do? Will they strap rocket boosters to it and let it fly around like Superman? Maybe they can make it very realistic and embarass the Alliance into submission. Let's face it, it's not an efficient design; it's the opposite of what these cold, calculating antagonists who consider themselves far above organic life should be doing.

...I'm sorry, you're taking a position that giant space cuttlefish are realistic instead?

[*]All we can speculate is that they still intended to open the Citadel relay (ME2 hasn't given us anything else to go on). In which case their plan was to try the approach that failed the first time? I'm all for backups, but odds are if they had rounded up that sentient army they had watching paint dry out in the galactic core and attacked along with the Geth in the first place, the backup wouldn't have been needed.

The Collectors, in and of themselves, aren't a military force. You already acknowledged this prior, and also wondered why they didn't wait until the Culling began to get to work (which, you know, they were doing). Their addition is a nice ship that the Dreadnaughts of the Citadel Fleet would tear into ribbons, and little else.

The fact that we know is that the Reapers are and have been working on a time limit (the longer they wait, the more past the original intended culling point the Galaxy is and more likely to interfere/be troublesome they are). 


[*]

Then there's the more simple problems with the plot. For example, where did Mordin get that bug from? Apparently there's no evidence at the abducted colonies, yet there's a gaint alien ship that apparently takes off using rocket boosters. I guess enormous launch craters are common place.

And then you went to Freedom's Progress and found evidence, remember? Nor is there any reason why the bug (if it wasn't synthesized) couldn't have been at last recovered from another colony later.

[*]
At any rate, some of your speculation over the whole organic synthesis thing is interesting, but that's half the problem. It's neither explained or really acknowledged. The characters just postulate that this must be the method of Reaper production and move on. Isn't this kind of a BFD? Yet it's almost accepted at face value. I'm not asking the second act to resolve anything, I just resent being left with more questions than I entered with.

It's only a big ****ing deal if you let it be. Otherwise, no. It doesn't change all that much. What of the plot would be changed?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Phaedon wrote...

Eh, no. 

The question in Star Wars was not about the origins of the enemies, because they were already known, unlike Mass Effect, with it being the overreaching question. Nice try at attempting to direct the argument specifically by mentioning about 'discovering the Reapers' weaknesses', but no, this is definitely not the main question.

You subsequently claimed the main question is "The Reapers, their motives and their origins."

This should have been the definitive plot of Mass Effect 2. We discover their origin, a plausible purpose for the purge of organic civilization and what propels them to commit a cycle of genocide. Even if it were speculative, it provides continuation from the predecessor. Instead the aforementioned will either be forgotten or compiled in a muddled miss due to the necessity of the third act having to conclude the story. The Reapers must be defeated. We cannot spend ample time attempting to decipher clues.

The second act left us with an over abundance of questions, yet offered no answers nor had the plot moved forward. All we are made aware of is the Reapers went from viewing organic with disdain and contempt as an mutated accident to abruptly requiring them to reproduce.

The only scenario in which we could connect Sovereign's dialogue with Harbinger's actions is if millions of years prior organic life existed solely to create Reapers and in the millennia that followed it evolved into what it is now.

You suggest that the ME2 squad will not in any way help in defeating the Reapers? Eh, okay. If you say so. 

No, I am stating their relevance to the plot will inevitably become marginalized or nonexistent dependent on the individual. They can perish and therefore cannot impact the direction of the narrative. Allow us to surmise the story is to ready the galaxy for an enormous galactic war with the Reapers. Upon visiting the Turian hierarchy, Garrus' presence would at most alter dialogue in comparison to Wrex.

The only capacity where Garrus could influence the plot is if there were a suitable replacement NPC in the form of Wreav to accommodate his role had he perished. This does not necessarily guarantee him a cameo appearance. It is entirely within reason he could rejoin Shepard and have another episodic mission dedicated to his development. He simply cannot direct the plot.

This is true for the entire ME2 cast. If they return, they do so as filler squad mates with episodic structured development arcs, not plot-centric missions.

Unless you are under the impression BioWare will work in legion to compose a multitude of alternate scenario stories, encompassing every single variable and thereby having to rewrite entire sections of the main plot should you import a file not of perfection.

In short, write six games in one. I cannot fathom anyone is this delusional.

Seriously, retcon? Retcon? Retcon ?!? !1!one!?

These forums seriously need to learn that since you don't know how the conclusion of that story line ends.
You don't know what the Reapers have against organic life and to what extent they consider themselves organic, so your point is moot.

If Sovereign saw itself even a fraction organic, it would not have made the statement I quoted previously. A creature who perceive itself a God, the pinnacle of evolution, would not contradict itself. In Mass Effect, it was clearly evident they were a race of sentient machines yet in Mass Effect 2 they became partial organic. This could be a plausible discovery had we been provided any exposition on the subject. Another route could be Harbinger had been intending to create Collectors en mass to replenish the army Sovereign had garnered in an effort to attack the Citadel.

Instead we were offered nothing. As of this moment, it appears as nothing more than a retcon. Either that or poor writing.

Yeah, because you don't want to cleanse something that is important? Right? Um. 

No, you do not. If organics are the lifeblood of your existence. You would not purge them, which had been Sovereign's motivation based upon his dialogue. Harbinger completely contradicts Sovereign, and thus is why I cited it a retcon earlier.

Like which one, the ridiculous accusation that Shepard's ressurection would be impossible? Don't try claiming that what this community thinks as plotholes and retcons are, because this community is mostly people claiming to know everything without knowing anything.

... sigh.

I am going to attempt beating this horse once more. There are precisely three scenarios subsequent to the destruction of the Normandy.

- Shepard enters planetary reentry and is burned to ash.
- Devoid of reentry densely hostile as Earth, Shepard plummets thousands of miles per hour into the surface of the planet.
- Shepard merely drifts throughout space and is eventually discovered.

The first two are not possible. There would be nothing to rebuild nor a brain to reconstruct Shepard, "Exactly as (s)he was." Therefore, excluding Shepard being a cyborg, we are left with the third option. Unfortunately, BioWare offered no exposition whatsoever, not even trivial in-game speculation.

In actuality, Miranda and Jacob contradict this scenario when they discuss the remains of Shepard's body. It is insinuated they landed on the planet. They fact Shepard's helmet is located further bolsters this likelihood, which as previously discussed, is not probable.

Frankly, I would prefer being told previously unbeknownst space magic existed than attempt to rap my mind around the notion Shepard managed to fire his/her gun and in conjunction with the oxygen leak, the resulting propulsion was enough to jettison him/her towards the remainder of the Normady, which just happened to drift by, was then able to get inside and find the Mako, all while holding their breath.

On second thought. That is neither poor writing nor contrived. It is abomination that no self-respecting writer would subject to their audience. Fortunately, although critical, I do believe BioWare are capable of excellence and we have witnessed amply in other areas of Mass Effect 2. In addition, I do not believe for a moment, they would utilize that fourth theory for the reasons I mentioned.

So, chalk it up to being contrived if you rather. Unless you have another theory.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 28 janvier 2011 - 10:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...
Space magic?  Like the Lazarus Project? 

I'd prefer 'biotics'.

'Mass Effect Fields' comes a close second.

What I'm more specifically asking is "How does organic components get turned into metal yet retain whatever it is that Reapers are after?  What's the common thread?"

How are the Mass Relays made? What's the composition of the Normandy heat-sinks? What the **** happened to conservation of energy with biotics?


SCIENCE! (For a fictional world that couldn't exist.)

And that "essence" would be...?

The species involved, of course.

Much like 'the Cypher' from ME1. ME2 didn't introduce the conceit.

"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it"

Indeed. No actual contradiction, despite early impressions. We exist because they allowed the situation, our civilization would end because they choose so... and our species 'ascended' via salvation through destruction because they deem us worthy.

And what does any of that have to do with a metallic body which, goofy form aside, has nothing to do with the base species?  What quality is within human DNA which cannot be replicated, yet is important to a race of immortal metallic dark-space dwelling synthetic life forms?

The same element that exemplifies element zero.

Plot dust.

So, do all thes eminds remember being human (or whatever)?  Are Lilith's memories intact?  If Kelley Chambers got smoothified, does the Reaper baby recall being a ship's counceler who "loves" aliens?  Does it remember being Gabby, or the rest of the crew and colonists?

We don't know, but it's an interesting aspect we didn't even know to think of. It's not a bad question to have, or even a plot-breaking one.

Because indoctrination and other forms of mind control inhibit cognitive functions.  That's why Saren was never fully indoctrinated. That's why TIM opposed putting a control chip in Shepard's brain.  If Reapers indoctrinate their "newborns" then they are effectively lobotomizing themselves.  If they aren't, then why would a human Reaper willingly side with the Reapers that pureed their physical bodies?

Of organics. Mind control inhibits the functions of organics. However, the Reapers aren't strictly organic, and the analogy completely breaks towards our examples of synthetic compulsion (the Heretic virus, or just AI hacking).

Funny how the game itself never made that connection.

It would have been rather condescending had it had to.

Me, I have wondered if the Heretic geth and Collectors had any contact.  Might have made a good talking point with Tali or Legion (I would have imagined Tali's loyalty quest stating out as visiting the flotilla to ask her father about it only to find the flotilla in an uproar after the Alerai.  But this potential connection literally never comes up.  The Heretic plan appears to have been wholly seperate from the Collector project.

They do have contact. It's clarified upon in the Firewalker pack.

And why not? The "Why" is as important as the "What" isn't it?

I find that the scope and scale of the possible reactions would be impossible to reasonably address. What works for one person still leaves the other 6.99999999 billion people left to consider.

It could have been briefly touched upon in the most vague ways, but I'm glad they didn't focus on it.

After all, who wants to hear Shepard's death-delusion about how god is a pink hamster?