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[Sentox6]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The difference between US expatriates and the Terminus colonies is that US expatriates both (a) still identify with and are connected to the US, and ( generally don't break ties and go out to dangerous areas where disaster is not unknown. Compare the attention US deaths in Iraq (less than yearly traffic accidents) versus, say, the actual millions death toll of the Congo, and no one pays attention to the Congo.

They may sever political affiliation, but at undoubtedly some proportion of them must still have family and friends back in Alliance space. Shepard got a message from one such person, in fact. Unless you can somehow convince me that hundreds of thousands of colonists have severed ties to this degree, my opinion isn't changing, so let's move on.

It should be obvious that they weren't tipping their hand (except to such a group as Cerberus), so a simple answer is 'they need a little more than they would likely get from just Earth', and they are also working on a timeline distinct to themselves. In which case, their expectations that the payoff for hitting Earth later, and getting the other margins now would be better (more successful)

See, this is a line of reasoning I just don't like. You're taking the approach of "well, they chose this course of action because they have more data available with which to make the decision, so their choice was actually optimal". You can justify nearly any plot leaps this way.

And I still fail to see what the Reaper was supposed to achieve that Sovereign couldn't.

I'm sorry, you're taking a position that giant space cuttlefish are realistic instead?

No, I'm taking the position that for a spacefaring construction, a giant cuttlefish is more realistic approach than a bipedal robot.

And then you went to Freedom's Progress and found evidence, remember? Nor is there any reason why the bug (if it wasn't synthesized) couldn't have been at last recovered from another colony later.

And yet nothing was ever found at any of the previously abducted colonies. Shepard turns up, and voila, useful samples. I don't care how you rationalise it, it's still a handwave in practice.

And again, I refer you to the giant ship leaving the planet with rocket boosters. One can't help but imagine a Cerberus agent standing in the middle of a giant crater while writing out his report on the lack of evidence.

I assume that your explanation will be something along the lines of the Collector ship having a non-destructive propulsion system that is slower, so they lacked the requisite time to employ it when Shepard activated the defense batteries.

It's only a big ****ing deal if you let it be. Otherwise, no. It doesn't change all that much. What of the plot would be changed?

I lol'd. I guess it's all perspective. Regardless of whether my foe has the same ultimate aim, if he wanted to liquify me and use me in manufacturing instead of just exterminating me, I'd consider it a BFD. Know thy enemy. Ultimate Shepard and co has to do whatever it takes to stop the Reapers, but that aim cannot be harmed by seeking to understand them better. Instead, we get "A Human Reaper. Huh. Oh well. Blow **** up, guys!"

[GMulryan]

Troll writing for a website and in three parts no less. Some nice screen shots. The storyline worked. Game play improved.

I play the same game, make the same choices and yet draw different conclusions from you. What does that mean? Nothing.

[JeffZero]

I have few problems with ME2's as-yet-incomplete questionable plot motions but certainly a few more than I did with ME1's more neatly-contained package.

The one thing that does really bug me is wondering what the heck the Reapers thought they were accomplishing.

[Sentox6]

GMulryan wrote...

Troll writing for a website and in three parts no less. Some nice screen shots. The storyline worked. Game play improved.

I play the same game, make the same choices and yet draw different conclusions from you. What does that mean? Nothing.

It means that people have varying opinions. Someone expressing theirs does not make them a troll. Calling them such makes you look like a bit of a tool though.

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...
Space magic?  Like the Lazarus Project? [/quote]I'd prefer 'biotics'.

'Mass Effect Fields' comes a close second.[/quote]


If you can find an in-game explanation how either of those, or even eezo, can puree human beings and turn them into Reaper parts, I’ll withdraw all complaints about the process.

Even magic needs to operate on rules, even if they aren’t the rules that govern our reality

[quote]

What I'm more specifically asking is "How does organic components get turned into metal yet retain whatever it is that Reapers are after?  What's the common thread?"[/quote]How are the Mass Relays made? What's the composition of the Normandy heat-sinks? What the **** happened to conservation of energy with biotics?[/quote]


If the Normandy’s heat sinks end up trying to exterminate advanced life in the galaxy and turn humans into more heat sinks, that will be a valid question.
But according to the wiki, the answer is lithium. No I don’t know how that works.

[quote]

SCIENCE! (For a fictional world that couldn't exist.)[/quote]
See above about how even magic needs to operate within certain rules or reality itself becomes a meaningless video game.

[quote]
And that "essence" would be...?[/quote]The species involved, of course.[/quote]


Still doesn’t answer the question what is the essence? Stem cells? Brain cells? Stomach lining? Bones? Blood? Is it in the cells? The DNA? Midicholrians? Or is it the compenents humans are made of? Sugar and spice and everything nice? Snips and snails and puppy dog tails?  Are those in just the right proportions in humans?


[quote]Much like 'the Cypher' from ME1. ME2 didn't introduce the conceit.[/quote]


Actually I’d have loved if they went further into what the Cipher was and how it affected Shepard’s mind. But alas, that is so last game.

[quote]

Plot dust.[/quote]
One piece of space magic (and one with clearly defined limitations at that) does not make further totally unshackled uses of space magic permissible.   
 

[quote]
We don't know, but it's an interesting aspect we didn't even know to think of. It's not a bad question to have, or even a plot-breaking one.[/quote]


It’s too bad this wasn’t addressed, or even speculated on.  The Reaper larva was just another thing to shoot at.

[quote]
Of organics. Mind control inhibits the functions of organics. However, the Reapers aren't strictly organic, and the analogy completely breaks towards our examples of synthetic compulsion (the Heretic virus, or just AI hacking).[/quote]

So are Reapers organic or synthetic? Or both? Questions that really should have been addressed, like I said. Might have moved the plot along a bit.  Might even answer my "were the heretic geth indoctrinated?" question too.

[quote]
It would have been rather condescending had it had to. [/quote]


Not at all. The geth were the primary ME 1 villain group. The Collectors are the (supposedly) primary villain group of ME 2. Establishing that they have some sort of alliance, or at least an exchange, only makes sense.  And it adds, you know, connection, to the two games.

[quote]
They do have contact. It's clarified upon in the Firewalker pack.[/quote]


Firewalker? Ugh don’t tell me I have to play that piece of...dlc... to actually get a piece of plot coherence. ::curls up into a ball at the thought of having to drive the Hammerhead again::

[quote]
]I find that the scope and scale of the possible reactions would be impossible to reasonably address. What works for one person still leaves the other 6.99999999 billion people left to consider.

It could have been briefly touched upon in the most vague ways, but I'm glad they didn't focus on it.

After all, who wants to hear Shepard's death-delusion about how god is a pink hamster?

[/quote]


Vague works. They don’t even have to talk about what Shepard might have “seen” (though I envision it as a talk between himself and Saren, reminding Shep that he has unfinished work. But it’s never made clear if Saren was a ghost or a hallucination)
 
But that’s neither here nor there. What would be important is establishing who or what Shep is. I mean, at least ME1 delved a little into how the traumatic events in Shep’s preservice history and psychological profile shaped him. Death doesn’t get much more traumatic. Especially death by spacing. Now Shep’s back, though perhaps no longer entirely human. Couldn’t it be possible that maybe he identifies with the Reapers, just a little? Or the Reapers think he does? 
 
In addition: Shep died, and lost everything: ship, squad, crew, job, Spectre status, friends, possibly LI, two years, and essentially his identity. Old allies are suspicious of him or have moved on with their lives. Much of what he fought for was wasted away. For all practical purposes, Shepard has ceased to exist. And now he’s back. Sounds like a tabula rasa to me. Not what you’d expect in the middle part of a trilogy. But there you go. 

Modifié par iakus, 29 janvier 2011 - 04:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...


If you can find an in-game explanation how either of those, or even eezo, can puree human beings and turn them into Reaper parts, I’ll withdraw all complaints about the process.

Even magic needs to operate on rules, even if they aren’t the rules that govern our reality

Not really. Mass Effect doesn't even abide by its own rules about the signature technology, so why should other sci-fi aspects be explained out with more pseduo-science that wouldn't hold up?

But according to the wiki, the answer is lithium. No I don’t know how that works.

That's as bad as not giving an answer, because we know that can't be the answer regardless. 'Lithium' is just as specific and factual as 'mass effect tech' or 'reaper tech'. It's a category, not a specification.

Actually I’d have loved if they went further into what the Cipher was and how it affected Shepard’s mind. But alas, that is so last game.

And yet entirely relevant to your own question.

One piece of space magic (and one with clearly defined limitations at that) does not make further totally unshackled uses of space magic permissible.  

It kind of does.

It's like giant robot anime. It's the Big Lie: once you've stepped in, you've already consented to science being selectively elaborated.
 

So are Reapers organic or synthetic? Or both? Questions that really should have been addressed, like I said. Might have moved the plot along a bit.  Might even answer my "were the heretic geth indoctrinated?" question too.

Both and neither. The point is that they transcend and defy either category.

The Heretics were not indoctrinated. Legion answers that matter straight out: the heretics are voluntary servants of the Reapers, not the result of a math error or bug or Sovereign virus.

Not at all. The geth were the primary ME 1 villain group. The Collectors are the (supposedly) primary villain group of ME 2. Establishing that they have some sort of alliance, or at least an exchange, only makes sense.  And it adds, you know, connection, to the two games.

The Geth were never the primary villains of ME1. They were secondary to Saren, and tertiary to Sovereign.

There were always hostile in ME1. They were still always hostile when you encountered them in ME2. At the very time you learn that the Geth aren't actually all hostile, it's at the cusp of them being made so. While the Geth were certainly not a major part of ME2, the reason for not thinking they would be hostile and in favor of aiding the Reapers (and thus the Collectors) plans once they went bigger is only possible by a curious mixture of meta-knowledge (that the Geth aren't all hostile) and forgetfulness (that the Heretics were about to release a virus that would make them all Reaper-worshipers).

Firewalker? Ugh don’t tell me I have to play that piece of...dlc... to actually get a piece of plot coherence. ::curls up into a ball at the thought of having to drive the Hammerhead again::

Ah, suck it up, you big baby.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 janvier 2011 - 04:37 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really. Mass Effect doesn't even abide by its own rules about the signature technology, so why should other sci-fi aspects be explained out with more pseduo-science that wouldn't hold up?

If you're referring to ME 2's rather curious use of mass effect fields, I agree. 

But even so, failure to remain intenally consistent is never a good thing.  With something as critical as the whole reason why the events in the game were happening in the first place is just more egregious.

I'm not a big science geek, i don't need an in-depth scientific reason how something is possible.  But I do need to know how this fits into the world I'm being shown.

]That's as bad as not giving an answer, because we know that can't be the answer regardless. 'Lithium' is just as specific and factual as 'mass effect tech' or 'reaper tech'. It's a category, not a specification.

With a question like "What are the Normandy's heat sinks made of?" It seemed specific enough.  Now if you asked me "How do lithium heat sinks work?" I couldn't tell you, nor think it was important unless the heat sinks themselves became an important aspect of the story.  Like, say they came alive and were trying to turn humanity into heat sinks.

And yet entirely relevant to your own question.

One aspect of the game I'm disappointed in justifies another aspect of the game I'm even more disappointed in?

It kind of does.

It's like giant robot anime. It's the Big Lie: once you've stepped in, you've already consented to science being selectively elaborated.

I see it more like entering the Matrix.  Some rules can be bent.  Others broken.  But you can't go around rewriting everything.  At least, not unless you're The One.  And at that point the whole thing goes unstable and turns silly.

 

Both and neither. The point is that they transcend and defy either category.

So we went through all that to learn the Reapers defy description?  Asdoes their process of creating new Reapers?  That's... less than useful.  Sovereign told us as much last game!

The Geth were never the primary villains of ME1. They were secondary to Saren, and tertiary to Sovereign.

There were always hostile in ME1. They were still always hostile when you encountered them in ME2. At the very time you learn that the Geth aren't actually all hostile, it's at the cusp of them being made so. While the Geth were certainly not a major part of ME2, the reason for not thinking they would be hostile and in favor of aiding the Reapers (and thus the Collectors) plans once they went bigger is only possible by a curious mixture of meta-knowledge (that the Geth aren't all hostile) and forgetfulness (that the Heretics were about to release a virus that would make them all Reaper-worshipers).

When I said the geth were the primary villain group, I meant the foot soldiers you faced the most.  You fought geth more often than, say krogan, or asari.  "Sovereign's pawns" might have been a better description than "villain group".  Just as the Collectors were Harbringer's pawns this time around. 

But the point still stands.  Showing a degree of cooperation between the two groups might have added a level of continuation between the games that I personally found to be lacking

Ah, suck it up, you big baby.

Modifié par iakus, 29 janvier 2011 - 06:01 .

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

When I said the geth were the primary villain group, I meant the foot soldiers you faced the most.  You fought geth more often than, say krogan, or asari.  "Sovereign's pawns" might have been a better description than "villain group".  Just as the Collectors were Harbringer's pawns this time around. 

But the point still stands.  Showing a degree of cooperation between the two groups might have added a level of continuation between the games that I personally found to be lacking

Maybe that's becasue there wasn't supposed to be any cooperation? Maybe Sovereign had a reason to have its own pawns, instead of using the general Reaper pawns, the Collectors?

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Maybe that's becasue there wasn't supposed to be any cooperation? Maybe Sovereign had a reason to have its own pawns, instead of using the general Reaper pawns, the Collectors?

Or comments on that too:

"Strange.  There's pockets of geth resistance all over the Terminus, but they don't seem to be helping the Collectors hit colonies.  Nor is there any sign of the Collectors providing support to the geth  You'd think they'd be allies."

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Except it goes towards "Why humans"  What makes humans suitable but not Protheans?  What does the genophage do that makes krogan "wasted potential" or why are turians "too primative" (assuming those are canon assessments)  What goes into the process that makes humans "worthy" of smoothying but no other race?

But this is now asking a different question. "How" the human smoothie is made is different from "why" it is made. We the audience never need to find out the science behind the human Reaper. You are certainly free to hate the concept, execution, anything, but we can't question the science behind it any more than we can question the science of indoctrination or husks; it's simply technology beyond our ability.

I will answer the 'Why humans' question below.

True. But we do need to know why mages are more suceptible to demonic possession, why blood magic is so reviled.  And it's nice to know why dwarves cannot become mages.

Well, yes and no. We are told that it's due to a Mage's increased connection to the Fade, but that's the extent of it. There is no actual exposition telling us the mechanics behind how magic works however.

How do we know this?  That's purely TIM's speculation.

That's one aggravating thing about ME 2:  all the speculation that is assumed to be true.  By EDI.  By TIM.  By Shepard.  The big reveal in ME 1 showed us that assuming something most certainly does not make it so.

And yet, we are nothing without our assumptions. What else do they have to go on? Take every major spoiler in a Bioware game (barring Neverwinter Nights and DA:O) and we see that there are things we as the audience are always 'assuming' to be true, only to have it come crashing down on us; that's how plot twists are made- by the reveal of some fact which contradicts previous expectations.

Even taking into account that TIM/EDI are only speculating, it's more than enough to base a theory. EDI does tell us that a Prothean Reaper was attempted, but subsequently failed due to be incompatible with Reaper designs, indicating that there is some biological aspect to consider, reinforced by Mordin's theories regarding human genetic diversity. Even look at TIM's analysis: the Reapers did not shift their focus to organics until after Shepard destroyed Sovereign, only then did the Collectors begin harvesting human colonies. What we do need to learn in Mass Effect 3 is why in particular the Reapers wanted Shepard's body- this does need to be addressed.

It may be a popular theory, but it still makes no sense.  Sovereign had a geth fleet at his back and a backdoor into the Citadel that no one knew about.  This new Reaper, assuming it could be built without mobilizing the entire Terminus and Citadel against the Collectors, had one cruiser and no secret back entrance.

That's like saying the Geth fleet made no sense because the Rachni Wars failed. There are always alternate contingency plans to consider. Whatever other means the Reapers plan on using to reach the galaxy, it clearly costs them, hence why they wait in dark space. The human reaper allows them another opportunity, while the galaxy is rebuilding, and luckily while the Council still believes Reapers don't exist.

Yes, you could raise the question 'What will this new Reaper do?', but just think on Sovereign, Saren, the Geth, the Rachni, the Conduit, etc. That we don't have a line of insight into how the human Reaper planned on getting the Citadel Relay doesn't make it a plothole. Remember, at one point, Sovereign was operating completely without resources (Saren, the Get), yet it managed to almost successfully get it open.

Yes, given that Shepard is now a machine-human hybrid.  In essence a human Reaper, but without the whole "I am the vanguard of your destruction" bit (unless you're playing a vanguard and tearing through the Terminus System mercs.  But I digress)

Well, from what I've heard, there is foreshadowing in Overlord indicating that Shepard's cybernetics may at some point come into play.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

I'm all for building on what came before.  In fact, I think ME 2 should have reference more towards ME 1.  What I dislike is relying on future installments to explain what already happened.

Ah, but even Mass Effect falls into this trap. If someone asked me why the Reapers cull the galaxy, I could not provide any answer to this question in Mass Effect. I would need Mass Effect 2 to explain to them it's for reproduction and (hopefully) Mass Effect 3 to elaborate on the 'we are each a nation' bit.

I don't mind having to see Episode IV to fully understand Episode V.  Being able to watch Episode V and enjoy it on it's own is great too.  But having to See Episode VI to fully appreaciate what's going on in Episode V (or IV for that matter) is Not A Good Thing.

But I would say this is how some plots featuring a spoiler works.

In Episode V, when Yoda tell us "No, there is another?", to whom was he referring? You can't answer that precisely with Episode V. There are many times where a question is raised, and an answer isn't given until much later.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really. Mass Effect doesn't even abide by its own rules about the signature technology, so why should other sci-fi aspects be explained out with more pseduo-science that wouldn't hold up?

If you're referring to ME 2's rather curious use of mass effect fields, I agree. 

How about ME1? Conservation of energy, Asari mind-melding, the Prothean Beacon technology, huskification, indoctrination?

I'm not a big science geek, i don't need an in-depth scientific reason how something is possible.  But I do need to know how this fits into the world I'm being shown.

By modeling. The same as everything else.

Reaper technology is simply a large modeling block capable of lots of things. It's always been that way, even back in ME1, as has 'Prothean technology' and 'mass effect fields.' It's simply a label to pass off things.

I see it more like entering the Matrix.  Some rules can be bent.  Others broken.  But you can't go around rewriting everything.  At least, not unless you're The One.  And at that point the whole thing goes unstable and turns silly.

If we want to go big Hollywood, it's 'the magic of hacking': a convenient plot device that allows for most anything, even if it isn't realistic. (Like Independence Day.)

So we went through all that to learn the Reapers defy description?  Asdoes their process of creating new Reapers?  That's... less than useful.  Sovereign told us as much last game!

They don't defy description, they ascend it, past old labels. And now we know why and what Sovereign was referring to, whereas before there was a wide range of interpretations of what it could mean.

But the point still stands.  Showing a degree of cooperation between the two groups might have added a level of continuation between the games that I personally found to be lacking

Indeed, which was one of the good things about the Hammerhead DLC. The Hammerhead was always intended to be released regardless, so it wasn't like an ex-post-facto retcon either.

Now blow, baby, blow.

[In Exile]

ME2 ended the right way - the reapers are coming. It just... the rest of the game has absoluely no bearing on that (Harbinger apparently just says **** and heads off to the galaxy). I suppose they tried to set up Harbinger as a villain, but you have no interaction for it to make sense for it to return as a major obstacle to Shepard. The plot of ME2 had nothing to do with the reapers coming back. It was just treading water the entire time.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
Well, we've both learned something. Makes me wonder what's going on in that convo. I can't imagine why they had different versions of that line.

Maybe the writers got confused as to what happened in ME1 too.

The council is a little incoherent with the reapers. They flip their switch at the end of ME1 (like Udina) with no actual evidence of the reapers. ME2 handwaves away other potential finds that would prove the reapers (i.e. Vigil or analyzing Sovereign) but in the paragon ending the Council goes from (Shepard is nuts!) to (Shepard is right!) with no actual new evidence other than the fact Shepard saved them.

Personally, I always thought the Council was humoring a wackjob who saved their lives from their PoV.

[Iakus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

But this is now asking a different question. "How" the human smoothie is made is different from "why" it is made. We the audience never need to find out the science behind the human Reaper. You are certainly free to hate the concept, execution, anything, but we can't question the science behind it any more than we can question the science of indoctrination or husks; it's simply technology beyond our ability. [/quote]

Depends.  If there's some factor about human physiology or genetics that makes them alone capable of being rendered down, then congealed into as Reaper parts, "why" could help answer "how".  If, however, human get to be smoothied as a "reward" for killing Sovereign, then no it wouldn't answer the question. 

[quote]
Well, yes and no. We are told that it's due to a Mage's increased connection to the Fade, but that's the extent of it. There is no actual exposition telling us the mechanics behind how magic works however.
[/quote]

Like I said, I don't need an in-depth article into the the nature of the thaum.  I just need a layman's explanation into how A becomes B.  How ordinary non magical flesh and blood humans becomes a metallic Reaper, complete with death ray eyes.  And how it fits into the Reapers' overall plans. In other words "What did we accomplish by detroying it?"

[quote]

And yet, we are nothing without our assumptions. What else do they have to go on? Take every major spoiler in a Bioware game (barring Neverwinter Nights and DA:O) and we see that there are things we as the audience are always 'assuming' to be true, only to have it come crashing down on us; that's how plot twists are made- by the reveal of some fact which contradicts previous expectations. [/quote]

That's just it:  None of these assumptions turned into twists.  TIM said the Collectors were working with the Reapers, but couldn't point to any solid evidence.   And yet he was right!  Big metallic skeleton that looks human, with human goo being pumped into ti?  Clearly a Reaper!  No way this is some new weapon being developed, or another experiment with humans as the "control" group.  Big central area of the Collector cruiser has a lot of pods in it?  Clearly, they're going to hit Earth!  

Even taking into account that TIM/EDI are only speculating, it's more than enough to base a theory. EDI does tell us that a Prothean Reaper was attempted, but subsequently failed due to be incompatible with Reaper designs, indicating that there is some biological aspect to consider, reinforced by Mordin's theories regarding human genetic diversity. Even look at TIM's analysis: the Reapers did not shift their focus to organics until after Shepard destroyed Sovereign, only then did the Collectors begin harvesting human colonies. What we do need to learn in Mass Effect 3 is why in particular the Reapers wanted Shepard's body- this does need to be addressed. [/quote]

And EDI knows this how?  How do Mordin's theories on human genetic diversity factor into turning human somethingorother intometallic Reaper parts?  And TIM's analysis only works because the Collectors are in fact working for the Reapers.  Would he have had a good laugh if it turned out he blew billions of credits ressurecting Shepard to combat Batarian pirates?

Shep's corpse being important I agree.needs to be addressed

[quote]
That's like saying the Geth fleet made no sense because the Rachni Wars failed. There are always alternate contingency plans to consider. Whatever other means the Reapers plan on using to reach the galaxy, it clearly costs them, hence why they wait in dark space. The human reaper allows them another opportunity, while the galaxy is rebuilding, and luckily while the Council still believes Reapers don't exist.[/quote]

Yes, you could raise the question 'What will this new Reaper do?', but just think on Sovereign, Saren, the Geth, the Rachni, the Conduit, etc. That we don't have a line of insight into how the human Reaper planned on getting the Citadel Relay doesn't make it a plothole. Remember, at one point, Sovereign was operating completely without resources (Saren, the Get), yet it managed to almost successfully get it open. [/quote]

The geth fleet made sense because in the end it was a distraction while Saren used the Conduit.  How much sense the rachni made we can't say because we don't know what exactly Sovereign's plan was then.  We don't even know if he knew the Keepers were ignoring the signal.  But if Bioware ever makes "Mass Effect 0" about the rachni wars, you can bet I'd want those questions answered.

As to the human Reaper:  This is clearly a very long term plan.  Millions of humans to complete it, rmember?  The Council and Alliance can't be counted on to ignore the disppearing colonies forever.  The Council moves slowly, but it does move.  And as Vigil told Shepard:  One Reaper is not invincible. 

Do, what was this contingency plan?  What plan B was it that Shepard stopped?

[quote]
Yes, given that Shepard is now a machine-human hybrid.  In essence a human Reaper, but without the whole "I am the vanguard of your destruction" bit (unless you're playing a vanguard and tearing through the Terminus System mercs.  But I digress)[/quote]

Well, from what I've heard, there is foreshadowing in Overlord indicating that Shepard's cybernetics may at some point come into play. [/quote]

Bioware is determined to make me drive the Hammerhead to actually get a coherent story, isn't it?  I specifically did not buy Overlord because of that joke of a tank 

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

I'm all for building on what came before.  In fact, I think ME 2 should have reference more towards ME 1.  What I dislike is relying on future installments to explain what already happened.

Ah, but even Mass Effect falls into this trap. If someone asked me why the Reapers cull the galaxy, I could not provide any answer to this question in Mass Effect. I would need Mass Effect 2 to explain to them it's for reproduction and (hopefully) Mass Effect 3 to elaborate on the 'we are each a nation' bit.

But what ME 1 does exaplin is why Saren was after the Conduit and the significance of the Citadet.  In the end it was made abundantly clear that:  If dark space relay opened, everyone dies. 

Mass Effect 2 we have no idea what the significance was with the human Reaper, aside from the moral outrage that so many humans died making it.  We have no idea what the significance is besides the mere fact that "It's a Reaper"

But I would say this is how some plots featuring a spoiler works.

In Episode V, when Yoda tell us "No, there is another?", to whom was he referring? You can't answer that precisely with Episode V. There are many times where a question is raised, and an answer isn't given until much later.

No, but in that case you could make a pretty good guess (Han or Leia) But I'd argue that the biggest question (Why the interest in Luke) was pretty well answered.  Especially since it also revealed a pretty big chunk in Vader's Armor as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sentox6 wrote...

They may sever political affiliation, but at undoubtedly some proportion of them must still have family and friends back in Alliance space. Shepard got a message from one such person, in fact. Unless you can somehow convince me that hundreds of thousands of colonists have severed ties to this degree, my opinion isn't changing, so let's move on.

In the context of colonization societies, mass-disappearances aren't unknown and unheard of. Especially in areas where slaving and marauders are common: while future technology allows the scale of things to increase, the nature of it all (entire colonies being wiped out) isn't unknown. The official lines of 'pirates and slavers' in the Terminus doesn't stand up to scrutiny, if you aren't scrutinizing it's not implausible.

See, this is a line of reasoning I just don't like. You're taking the approach of "well, they chose this course of action because they have more data available with which to make the decision, so their choice was actually optimal". You can justify nearly any plot leaps this way.

When plausible explanations can exist, yes, I take the stance that plausible explanations can be assumed to exist even if not explicitly spelled out. It's when immplausible or contradictory claims are required that there are problems.

You asserted that that there was 'no way' it could happen like it did. Given the disreprency between you (who's position is strictly based on opinion) and the game position (who's position can be backed up in other ways), I'll favor it over you most times.

And I still fail to see what the Reaper was supposed to achieve that Sovereign couldn't.

Another chance that's still preferable to making the trek from Dark Space. No one's saying the Human Reaper plan is better or preferable to Sovereign's attempt.

Sovereign's failure wasn't inherent or guaranteed in the first place. A second attempt isn't automatically doomed to failure either.

No, I'm taking the position that for a spacefaring construction, a giant cuttlefish is more realistic approach than a bipedal robot.

'I find Jon Steward preferable to Stephen Colbert. Stephen's just silly.'

And yet nothing was ever found at any of the previously abducted colonies. Shepard turns up, and voila, useful samples. I don't care how you rationalise it, it's still a handwave in practice.

"I notice that the successful option is always the last option we try. This is a serious problem that needs to be rectified."

Dude, it's fiction. Of course the necessary clue is going to show up when the main character arrives, and of course they're not going to have found anything before he shows up that they can't give to him.

And again, I refer you to the giant ship leaving the planet with rocket boosters. One can't help but imagine a Cerberus agent standing in the middle of a giant crater while writing out his report on the lack of evidence.

With mass effect fields, ships don't have to leave Sovereign-style craters. There's nothing necessitating it.

I lol'd. I guess it's all perspective. Regardless of whether my foe has the same ultimate aim, if he wanted to liquify me and use me in manufacturing instead of just exterminating me, I'd consider it a BFD. Know thy enemy. Ultimate Shepard and co has to do whatever it takes to stop the Reapers, but that aim cannot be harmed by seeking to understand them better. Instead, we get "A Human Reaper. Huh. Oh well. Blow **** up, guys!"

I'll ask again: how would it change what you do in the game?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 janvier 2011 - 09:51 .

[wulf3n]

Il Divo wrote...
In Episode V, when Yoda tell us "No, there is another?", to whom was he referring? You can't answer that precisely with Episode V. There are many times where a question is raised, and an answer isn't given until much later.

Yes, but there are different kinds of questions. Those that are a part of the series and those that are apart of a specific episode. Things that are only relevant to empire are answered in empire. If they didn't explain the Emperors plan for luke until RotJ empire wouldn have made any sense. Just like how ME2 makes little sense.

Yoda's quote is a series level question, that gets revealed towards the end of the series.

Here's how i think the ME2 unanswered questions should have been done.

ME Series Level
  - Why reapers need to reproduce?
  - Importance of reproduction?
  - Reapers ultimate goals/plan?

ME2 Level
  - What was the collectors overall plan?
  - What was the point of making a baby reaper?
  - What did we actually achieve by killing the reaper.

Ambiguous
 - Importance of humans to reapers.
   - How reproduction actually works?

Modifié par wulf3n, 29 janvier 2011 - 09:55 .

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How about ME1? Conservation of energy, Asari mind-melding, the Prothean Beacon technology, huskification, indoctrination?

Not a science person, don't know much about scientific laws.  I can only assume that with the discovery of a new branch of science, what we know now may have been revealed to be in error. 

Asari mind-melding I pass off as a kind of tactile telepathy.  Never liked the concept of using it for reproduction.  But I'm okay with thought transfer. 

Beacon tech we weren't supposed to understand, thus why it's destruction was such a big deal.  Liara mentions that finding even a badly damaged beacon would be "worth almost any price" 

Huskification I passed off as a form of nanotech, saturating a corpse with  a bunch of machines so they could be controlled, zombie-like. 

Indoctrination is something else not well understood, but was being studied by people like Saren and Rana Thanoptis.  And possibly the STG

So while "sufficiently advanced" technology might be indistinguishable from magic, it is at least acknowledged in many cases that it's  a "spooooooky new technology".  But others, like Lazarus tech, the Reaper-rendering device simply get the shrug and "it's magic" treatment.  Like it's nothing mroe remarkable than a defibrilator or a paper mill

Reaper technology is simply a large modeling block capable of lots of things. It's always been that way, even back in ME1, as has 'Prothean technology' and 'mass effect fields.' It's simply a label to pass off things.

And I'm accused of being cynical

]If we want to go big Hollywood, it's 'the magic of hacking': a convenient plot device that allows for most anything, even if it isn't realistic. (Like Independence Day.)

And before EDI had her way with the Collector Cruiser, I assumed the Mass Effect series was above such things.

They don't defy description, they ascend it, past old labels. And now we know why and what Sovereign was referring to, whereas before there was a wide range of interpretations of what it could mean.

And how does this answer what the Reapers Plan B was?  Or Plan C?  Or help prove they exist?  Or find a way to defeat them? 

Modifié par iakus, 29 janvier 2011 - 10:01 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]Bourne Endeavor wrote...
You subsequently claimed the main question is "The Reapers, their motives and their origins." 

This should have been the definitive plot of Mass Effect 2.[/quote]
No,no,no,nein.

The overreaching question CANNOT be the definitive plot of the second act.

[quote]We discover their origin, a plausible purpose for the purge of organic civilization and what propels them to commit a cycle of genocide. Even if it were speculative, it provides continuation from the predecessor. Instead the aforementioned will either be forgotten or compiled in a muddled miss due to the necessity of the third act having to conclude the story. The Reapers must be defeated. We cannot spend ample time attempting to decipher clues.[/quote]
But learning how to destroy them offers to no interest at all? At least due to the way that the writers structured the story. In ME, the presence of the Protheans and their extincion is very heavy. Play ME1 and in the case that when you reach Vigil you don't understand how just destroying the Reapers is not the overreaching question, then well.
And I know what reply you will post to this, but I am prepared. :happy:

[quote]The second act left us with an over abundance of questions, yet offered no answers nor had the plot moved forward. All we are made aware of is the Reapers went from viewing organic with disdain and contempt as an mutated accident to abruptly requiring them to reproduce.[/quote]
I don't think that you can say that ME2 did advance the plot in some areas a few paragraphs earlier and now say that it did not and expect a reasonable reply.

And well, I wonder why the second act is called...


Complication.


[quote]The only scenario in which we could connect Sovereign's dialogue with Harbinger's actions is if millions of years prior organic life existed solely to create Reapers and in the millennia that followed it evolved into what it is now.[/quote]
None of them said something contradicting, and they both have a different personality.

[quote]
[/quote][quote]No, I am stating their relevance to the plot will inevitably become marginalized or nonexistent dependent on the individual. They can perish and therefore cannot impact the direction of the narrative. Allow us to surmise the story is to ready the galaxy for an enormous galactic war with the Reapers. Upon visiting the Turian hierarchy, Garrus' presence would at most alter dialogue in comparison to Wrex.

The only capacity where Garrus could influence the plot is if there were a suitable replacement NPC in the form of Wreav to accommodate his role had he perished. This does not necessarily guarantee him a cameo appearance. It is entirely within reason he could rejoin Shepard and have another episodic mission dedicated to his development. He simply cannot direct the plot.

This is true for the entire ME2 cast. If they return, they do so as filler squad mates with episodic structured development arcs, not plot-centric missions.
[/quote]
Where do you base this?
From a programming viewpoint you are wrong. At least when it comes to conditions and margilization.
It's simple, a squaddie can direct the plot, but only if they are alive. If they are not, then well, that just doesn't happen, or something minor takes it's place.



[quote]Unless you are under the impression BioWare will work in legion to compose a multitude of alternate scenario stories, encompassing every single variable and thereby having to rewrite entire sections of the main plot should you import a file not of perfection.

In short, write six games in one. I cannot fathom anyone is this delusional.[/quote]
Casey Hudson must be as he claimed that they'll go crazy with variables. 
Also, stop claiming that each variable needs a gazillion alternate plots or that squaddies require an extreme number of import flags. I thought that the forums had passed that phase three months ago.

[quote]If Sovereign saw itself even a fraction organic, it would not have made the statement I quoted previously. A creature who perceive itself a God, the pinnacle of evolution, would not contradict itself. In Mass Effect, it was clearly evident they were a race of sentient machines yet in Mass Effect 2 they became partial organic. This could be a plausible discovery had we been provided any exposition on the subject. Another route could be Harbinger had been intending to create Collectors en mass to replenish the army Sovereign had garnered in an effort to attack the Citadel.

Instead we were offered nothing. As of this moment, it appears as nothing more than a retcon. Either that or poor writing.[/quote]
I'll just ignore the blanant critique on other people's work and;

Organic life is an accident, they are the pinnacle of evolution.

I don't think that he's talking about the evolution from iPad to iReaper...


[quote]No, you do not. If organics are the lifeblood of your existence. You would not purge them, which had been Sovereign's motivation based upon his dialogue. Harbinger completely contradicts Sovereign, and thus is why I cited it a retcon earlier.[/quote]But the Reapers do purge them after all, and still use them for what they use them for? 
[quote]
[/quote]
[quote]... sigh.

I am going to attempt beating this horse once more. There are precisely three scenarios subsequent to the destruction of the Normandy.

- Shepard enters planetary reentry and is burned to ash.[/quote]
Earth's re-entry friction =/= Alchera's. It's a planet with a low density atmosphere. Just because it has one, it does not mean that it burns everything up. This is obvious from Normandy's interior as well.
[quote]- Devoid of reentry densely hostile as Earth, Shepard plummets thousands of miles per hour into the surface of the planet.[/quote]
Non. He has both armour and shields. The shields stop any object with high kinetic energy until they run out of energy. His armour is not ripped to little pieces, but instead big ones, which means that the shields did do their job, to some point, by sustaining some of the damage. Shepard's helmet remains intact, a helmet which has proved to have adiabatic capabilities during ME1, btw. Therefore, Shepard's brain is fine.

[quote]- Shepard merely drifts throughout space and is eventually discovered.[/quote]
no

[quote]The first two are not possible. There would be nothing to rebuild nor a brain to reconstruct Shepard, "Exactly as (s)he was." Therefore, excluding Shepard being a cyborg, we are left with the third option. Unfortunately, BioWare offered no exposition whatsoever, not even trivial in-game speculation. [/quote]
How did you expect an explanation? 

[quote]In actuality, Miranda and Jacob contradict this scenario when they discuss the remains of Shepard's body. It is insinuated they landed on the planet. They fact Shepard's helmet is located further bolsters this likelihood, which as previously discussed, is not probable.[/quote]
Replied eariler.

[quote]Frankly, I would prefer being told previously unbeknownst space magic existed than attempt to rap my mind around the notion Shepard managed to fire his/her gun and in conjunction with the oxygen leak, the resulting propulsion was enough to jettison him/her towards the remainder of the Normady, which just happened to drift by, was then able to get inside and find the Mako, all while holding their breath.[/quote]
That'd be kinda fun.

[quote]On second thought. That is neither poor writing nor contrived. It is abomination that no self-respecting writer would subject to their audience. Fortunately, although critical, I do believe BioWare are capable of excellence and we have witnessed amply in other areas of Mass Effect 2. In addition, I do not believe for a moment, they would utilize that fourth theory for the reasons I mentioned.[/quote]
Good job dismissing some one other's work without having all that you stated correct and/or confirmed in-game.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

So while "sufficiently advanced" technology might be indistinguishable from magic, it is at least acknowledged in many cases that it's  a "spooooooky new technology".  But others, like Lazarus tech, the Reaper-rendering device simply get the shrug and "it's magic" treatment.  Like it's nothing mroe remarkable than a defibrilator or a paper mill

The entire theme of Reaper tech is that it's "spoooooky new technology".

Lazarus was cybernetics, implants, a little love and a lot of cash..

And I'm accused of being cynical

Can you really deny it, though?

And before EDI had her way with the Collector Cruiser, I assumed the Mass Effect series was above such things.

Never has been before, so why start now?

And how does this answer what the Reapers Plan B was?

Creating a Reaper so they could use it.

  Or Plan C?

Metagaming, returning the hard way.

Or help prove they exist? 

If the Council wouldn't accept proof they could study, this won't matter to them either. That doesn't mean it's pointless, however.

Or find a way to defeat them? 

This it actually does do.

We know that the Reapers want to build a Human Reaper, and to do that we know they need a lot, and I mean a lot, of live Humans to do so. So many, in fact, that Earth's about the only place they can get enough.

What does this mean? It means that of all the planets in the galaxy, Earth is one in which shattering the biosphere from orbit isn't likely in their gameplan. They're going to try to conquer it. To do that, they're going to have to avoid the overkill options from space, and they're going to have to take the time and effort to overwhelm the defenses, and harvest.

This means they will be stationary for some time. In space-combat, where fixing the enemy in one place is the hardest part of engaging in battle, we know at some point they will be. That, my friend, is very important indeed.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The entire theme of Reaper tech is that it's "spoooooky new technology".

Which liquifies flesh, bone, hair,etc, from "genetically suitable" creatures, then turns it into some sort of Reaper metal, and yet (presumably) retains the (Reaperfied) memories of the victims? 

Needn't bother to tell me how it's done, jsut throw me a bone and have Shep at elast say "Huh.  That was weird"  As it is, we got a stronger reaction when Dragon's Teeth first made an appearance on Eden Prime!

And I'm accused of being cynical

Can you really deny it, though?

I don't know.  What I can say is that ME 1 at least made an attempt to make things sound plausible.  When something really weird hapened, it got noted.  In ME 2, the wonder is largely gone.  "It must be possible, this is the future!"

And how does this answer what the Reapers Plan B was?

Creating a Reaper so they could use it.

1)  Build a Human Reaper
2) ???
3) Profit!

If the Council wouldn't accept proof they could study, this won't matter to them either. That doesn't mean it's pointless, however.

Might be handy for when, you know, the Reapers come knocking in Council space, if the races are warned ahead of time.  Of course, I thought that's what we did in ME 1.  So what do I know? 

This it actually does do.

We know that the Reapers want to build a Human Reaper, and to do that we know they need a lot, and I mean a lot, of live Humans to do so. So many, in fact, that Earth's about the only place they can get enough.

What does this mean? It means that of all the planets in the galaxy, Earth is one in which shattering the biosphere from orbit isn't likely in their gameplan. They're going to try to conquer it. To do that, they're going to have to avoid the overkill options from space, and they're going to have to take the time and effort to overwhelm the defenses, and harvest.

This means they will be stationary for some time. In space-combat, where fixing the enemy in one place is the hardest part of engaging in battle, we know at some point they will be. That, my friend, is very important indeed.

Sovereign was laregly immobile during the fight in ME 1, and it still took the entire Arcturus Fleet and a major distraction in the Saren fight to drop him.  One Reaper.  Given the Reaper fleet has dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of Reapers "Hold still a minute while we line up our shots" is only the beginning of the Council races' problems

In addition, it would only make sense if the Reapers hit multiple targets at once specifically to divide our forces so the fleets attacking Earth don't  get jumped while they're busy harvesting. 

Modifié par iakus, 30 janvier 2011 - 07:24 .

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...

Non. He has both armour and shields. The shields stop any object with high kinetic energy until they run out of energy. His armour is not ripped to little pieces, but instead big ones, which means that the shields did do their job, to some point, by sustaining some of the damage. Shepard's helmet remains intact, a helmet which has proved to have adiabatic capabilities during ME1, btw. Therefore, Shepard's brain is fine.

Minor detail, but if Shepard's shields were working, how did the (armored) suit get ruptured? 

In addition, would any personal shield be strong enough to protect someone from being smacked with a planet?  Shields don't prtoect you from a closed fist, after all. 

[didymos1120]

iakus wrote...

Minor detail, but if Shepard's shields were working, how did the (armored) suit get ruptured? 

I've always gotten the impression that the people who recovered the ShepCorpse removed and/or cut the armor off  before putting the body into the stasis coffin thingy that's in Redemption.

[Iakus]

didymos1120 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Minor detail, but if Shepard's shields were working, how did the (armored) suit get ruptured? 

I've always gotten the impression that the people who recovered the ShepCorpse removed and/or cut the armor off  before putting the body into the stasis coffin thingy that's in Redemption.

I'm talking about the scenes during Shep's death, where he's drifting off in space with air leaking out of his suit.