136 réponses à ce sujet

[Skemte]

Stronghold II wrote...

Skemte wrote...

Stronghold II wrote...

xylrocks wrote...

Also...Morrigan, Lelina, etc have talents in other things before you get them....things i dont even want. I kept Morrigan as a hexer and wound up replacing her with Wynne and keeping the horrid Leliana because she could pick locks (the only only reason I kept her in my party).
I think I might be doing something wrong and thats fine. But I have just heard of so many character balancing problems on this game I feel like I am playing World of Warcraft again. I just wanted something that competed with the polish in the characters like Mass Effect (PC release anyhow, the 360 version had too many bugs).
Also I am ranting because I do not want to have to reroll (I know. . .WoW term) to fully experience everything...however Arcane Warrior does sound enticing

 See that's the thing.....this is not a MMO, this is a single player RPG and "balance" does not matter. There are actually vast differences in the classes here unlike a MMO where everyone thinks that they have to be on equal ground.

 Find the party members that you like, and exploit their strengths.

 Every party combination in this game can be used to great effect. Learn the skills and learn some tactics. I hope that didn't sound mean, but this is no narmal hack and slash game.

.. Where in the hell do these people keep coming up with these balance only be MMO related?  Clearly there are problems, for instance in baldur's Gate 2 there were some classes that just flat out SUCKED that you should never play (even if you wanted to) because you will be highly ineffective..  The fact that there are 3 core classes, and one is clearly head and shoulers over the others is unforgivable.. Especially when you don't even need to consider about over all power but the fact they can go deep in ALL trees with out worry of weakening them selves unlike a rogue or a warrior.. No one is asking for complete balance, but clearly the mage is WAY ahead of the other two classes.. Maybe if they were limited of choosing from one of the spell trees like rogue and warrior are pretty much forced to do.. Not to mentiont here are ONLY 2 spell caster npc's in the game.. So if your a warrior or rogue, you are going to have to pick one or both of them in nearly every play through to make some encounters manageable.. Gulping down potions every second is not what I would consider fun or manageable but more of a "challenge run" rather than a legitimate play through with the game.

 If they were all "balanced" then every battle would be exactly the same regardless of party make-up.

 The great thing about single player games is that the devs can keep things different between classes without having to nerf something due to a bunch of cry babies.

 You say mages rock the wrold, but my tank build completely owns every other class I have come across. I have had my tank survive an ambush and fight off the last 7 or 8 bad guys competely on my own due to everyone else being dead.

 How is a mage overpowered when a tank can solo pretty much the entire ambush while the mage is taking a dirt nap?

 It's just silly.

  Add in the fact the mage can put points in all trees where ever they like, the warrior can not with out being hit.. And getting beaten on by a bunch of whites is pretty laughable and doesn't matter..  A Arcane warrior can do that and have much higher reists, armor and defense than you ever will..  The mage can out aoe any one, the mage has the best debuffs in the game, the mage can heal.. Furthermore when you make a mage you are not neccesarly narrowed into picking mage npces to make a balanced group.. 2 mages out of the 10 or more npcs int eh game are mages.. 

[lordhugorune]

Stronghold II wrote...

 You say mages rock the wrold, but my tank build completely owns every other class I have come across. I have had my tank survive an ambush and fight off the last 7 or 8 bad guys competely on my own due to everyone else being dead.

 How is a mage overpowered when a tank can solo pretty much the entire ambush while the mage is taking a dirt nap?

 It's just silly.

The difference is that you actually know how to play the game

[Unbroken Lineage]

"Game balance" is completely meaningless in a single-player, party-based environment.

[JabberJaww]

I dont mind the power the Mages have i this game.. after all, they are firggin mages!! Templars watch them like babies because of there ability to destroy. They are feared and rightly so.. doesnt mean they are invincible. But come one.. its a Mage, there kind of a big deal

[Lycid]

Wow QQ more, mages are powerful in lore than rogues, deal with it.

[Shadow_Viper]

IFL2P

[Jebu78]

Well yes, it can be difficult. I have no idea how good the default AI is, but the manual suggests playing on Easy difficulty if you want to play real-time without pausing and without controlling all the members yourself.

I started my first game on Hard difficulty, and turned the Tactics off for every partymember I got. I keep pausing constantly and I micromanage all the members myself. That's how I like to play, and I'm now level 15 on my rogue.

I don't use an offensive mage. My party has a shield-tank + two-handed warrior + rogue (me) + spirit healer mage. The difficulty has been just perfect for my liking. I don't need to reload often, but I do get a character or two knocked unconscious in many fights, still winning the fight.

I use corners and doorways to lure the enemies to me, instead of walking into a room with a set-up ambush. Rogue often uses stealth to reach the archers and casters, while the two warriors keep stunning and knocking the melee thugs around. The mage is mostly healing everyone and maybe helping a little with an occasional Petrify + Stone Fist.

On my next playthrough I will probably play a mage, and I expect to use a lot more spells to control and kill the enemies. My current party is working well, so I'd say different party compositions are very viable. However, you need to choose the difficulty level to match your playstyle. The v1.01 patch made the Easy difficulty easier, and there's no difference in experience/loot to my knowledge. So, if you don't enjoy the higher difficulty levels, why not play on Easy? (Edit: I have no idea why it shows triple line breaks for my post, or is it just me?)

Modifié par Jebu78, 14 novembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Recycled Human]

Uh, I use wynne, leliana and aliester with my 2h sword guy. I play on hard difficulty and intend to go to nightmare for my next playthrough and I'm not experiencing what your saying at all. While I miss a few times here and there overall I hit at roughly 75% of the time (which is an average of my best estimate and the in game calculator that shows your accuracy). And while I do recall for the short time I used morrigan that I could just set her tactics and go, I'm having very little trouble keeping my team well managed enough to make my way through the game.



Though I've had some rough patches at the areas you mention (group of archers or mages) I find a quick change of tactics levels the playing field. Would I say my Mage is better than my 2her, well not really as he's hands down my biggest team contributor. I think perhaps you should try fiddling around with your other characters and try playing as some of the classes your weaker with in order to help you learn how to best use them. I mean archers are supposed to be pretty good, you shouldnt be losing in 1v1 with another archer...just my opinion.

[drache64]

"1) The difficulty scale is non-existent: One minute I am rocking the joint, the next slaughtered"



Maybe its the way your using your all powerful mage, i use no mage EVER and my rock the join ALWAYS.



its all about how you play the game

[KingTazzo]

I haven't played enough to agree or disagree with you on Dragon Age but I did play a LOT of Mass Effect and you say there was no problem there. Did you ever try playing on the hardest difficulty with a new char spell user (forget the proper name now, it's late here). Until you got to about level 10 that was ludicrously hard.

Modifié par KingTazzo, 14 novembre 2009 - 02:22 .

[ozzfrk]

no one has griped about the quest tracking or lack there of on the side quests. thats my biggest pain just wondering around the zone and hope i run into it

[WildstarGoethe]

OP is correct on one point, at least; there truly are some unreasonable spikes in enemy scaling/battle difficulty. Whether or not it should be "fixed", however, is debatable. Maybe Bioware intended the game to play out like this.



It does seem more than a little odd, after decimating a party of undead and demons, to have your seemingly powerful party be destroyed by a pack of wolves (for example).

[The Dead Milkman]

xylrocks wrote...

 I think I might have expected too much from the company that brought me Mass Effect and Neverwinter Nights. Those games that released with such polish to character balances and the intricacies of each class. After playing DA:O for over 40hrs so far I have found out:
1) The difficulty scale is non-existent: One minute I am rocking the joint, the next slaughtered. I know this has been a consistent problem throughout...my question is why?? Mass Effect had no such bad scaling of difficulty (I have beat it on all difficulties and have multiple characters that I did it with). Why is this broken BioWare? Why?
2) In order for you to succeed without sheer luck you need to have a nuking mage in your party. If I want to roll with an archer, healz, tank and rogue or 2h warrior I am out of luck, becuase one minute I am doing fine than the system spawns 14 archers on me with two yellow shrieks. And of course my archer can't kill one of them by herself (yes by herself, she dies when she faces another archer by herself). Without an AOE mage I am screwed.
3) In order to play on any sort of difficulty I have to roll one of three archetypes: Tank with shield, elemental mage, or dual wield rogue. Why? because a hexing mage falls the same issue my archer does: she sucks, because archers don't do damage, and 2h warriors miss ALL THE TIME (roughly 1/2...the weapon is so big it would be nigh impossible to miss anything!)(even with 48 strength @ lvl 14 and 30 dex)

In conclusion I expected more polish on the character classes in a BioWare game. Maybe it is because they were bought out by such a company like EA that pushes out crap on a daily basis, or they just had too many games on their plate (ME2, DA:O, TOR-The Old Republic)
Or maybe I am just doing something horribly wrong which can be true too...oh I can just respec my party and....oh....
So BioWare please update this game FAST. I would enjoy rolling every single class combination as soon as possible, but when all I can do is sit in the shadow of a mage and plink away with my 2h axe or my mighty bow and arrow, I don't want to play (BTW I have three friends who are playing an elemenatl mage, and dual weapon rogue/warrior and they are doing fine, I mean earthquake>cone of ice>fireball clears 12 archers pretty fast. But it takes 6 min for me to kill them without a nuke mage...wtf....)

You don't know anything, and you understand only half of what you're saying. It's kind of funny. My 2hand warrior tore through everything without a problem. My mages only killed effectively if I was in direct control of them.

You should try sucking less at the game rather than blaming the company.

[Elanareon]

My current playthrough is nightmare with sten alistair rogue pc and morrigan/wynne just finished brecilian forest and currently at mage tower. It is hard but i must say its more fun than flinging spells. I find myself micro managing more and use more cc spells. Look at it this way, you and ur friends meet a gang of hooligans at the streets there are 4 of you and ten of them, what dya think will happen? You get beat up. Unless one of your friends has some super powers who can disable some of the ten hooligans and the rst you beat up. You are wrong if you use elemental mage with melee fighters. Elementsl mage isnt needed its just a play style. Archery isnt weak they have this annoying skill of mass stunning. Yeah enemies use it so can you. USE it! And maybe you will see how you are playing the game wrongly

[robertthebard]

Skemte wrote...

Stronghold II wrote...

xylrocks wrote...

Also...Morrigan, Lelina, etc have talents in other things before you get them....things i dont even want. I kept Morrigan as a hexer and wound up replacing her with Wynne and keeping the horrid Leliana because she could pick locks (the only only reason I kept her in my party).
I think I might be doing something wrong and thats fine. But I have just heard of so many character balancing problems on this game I feel like I am playing World of Warcraft again. I just wanted something that competed with the polish in the characters like Mass Effect (PC release anyhow, the 360 version had too many bugs).
Also I am ranting because I do not want to have to reroll (I know. . .WoW term) to fully experience everything...however Arcane Warrior does sound enticing

 See that's the thing.....this is not a MMO, this is a single player RPG and "balance" does not matter. There are actually vast differences in the classes here unlike a MMO where everyone thinks that they have to be on equal ground.

 Find the party members that you like, and exploit their strengths.

 Every party combination in this game can be used to great effect. Learn the skills and learn some tactics. I hope that didn't sound mean, but this is no narmal hack and slash game.

.. Where in the hell do these people keep coming up with these balance only be MMO related?  Clearly there are problems, for instance in baldur's Gate 2 there were some classes that just flat out SUCKED that you should never play (even if you wanted to) because you will be highly ineffective..  The fact that there are 3 core classes, and one is clearly head and shoulers over the others is unforgivable.. Especially when you don't even need to consider about over all power but the fact they can go deep in ALL trees with out worry of weakening them selves unlike a rogue or a warrior.. No one is asking for complete balance, but clearly the mage is WAY ahead of the other two classes.. Maybe if they were limited of choosing from one of the spell trees like rogue and warrior are pretty much forced to do.. Not to mentiont here are ONLY 2 spell caster npc's in the game.. So if your a warrior or rogue, you are going to have to pick one or both of them in nearly every play through to make some encounters manageable.. Gulping down potions every second is not what I would consider fun or manageable but more of a "challenge run" rather than a legitimate play through with the game.

Here's the one I want to pick apart, so I'm going to have fun with it.

Bolded section first:  Care to list those?  I played every class and class combination to end game.  I didn't find any that were non-playable.  Perhaps you just sucked at that class, or those classes?  So because you sucked at them, they were unplayable classes.

Italics section next:  Totally facetious statement on your part.  I did the Mage Tower late in one game, and Wynne sucked balls when built by the game, instead of with human input.  Again, you are misinformed, or attempting to mislead.  It is very easy to make a mage that sucks in this game, I have witnessed one built by the game itself.

Underlined section next:  You're not asking for complete balance?  Then why are you hating on mages?  You see, when you spend all this effort to point out the stuff you have tried to point out, that's the way it comes across, hating.

Now, to the rest of your post, would you consider doing a BG party w/out a healer type class?  If you play MMO's do you go do Instance Dungeons, or Raids w/out healers?  No?  Then why come here and complain about needing someone that can heal you doing the equivalent?  Simply because you got nuked too much?  Here's a statement I picked up from some MMO forums for ya', "Learn 2 Play".

[I HAS A FLAVOUR]

I do not agree as well.

[xylrocks]

To ITSEXYTIME:

Thank you. I was hoping for advice on how to make it more enjoyable. Also I have the Steam version and the toolset currently doesn't work...argh.... Archers to wittle down the melee's targets. Thank you.

To Stronghold:

My tank is incapable of doing any sort of "good" damage all by himself. And I don't want every class to be equal in power bur rather equal in usefulness. For instance a hexing mage should be able to benefit to a rogue/warrior/or other mage so much that it is effectively the power of a nuking mage.

Its not a matter of balancing per se, but more a matter of usefulness/fun...I mean after all isn't the reason we play games to have fun? Its hard to have fun when I can't mix and match different aspects of classes and get the same gaming experience (beside tank and healz which I am fine with) as the generic damage+damage+tank+healz. I want to be able to play the other strings of these classes such as: hexer+damage+tank+healz. Archer/trap expert+hexer+tank+healz. All I should have to do is modify my tactics, I shouldn't be forced to only use this type of character/class in this situation and then get rid of them two seconds later for another.

But then again the problem might be as simple as this: I wanted a tactical RPG that was hard and that didn't force such sweeping changes (in usefulness) between character classes. I wanted an RPG that I could run through the entire game focusing on just the four in my current party and scratching the rest. I might not have known what I was buying when I bought it.

[xylrocks]

to Robartthebard:

1) I use Wynne, I abuse Wynne. Unfortunately for me I didn't go to the Mage's Tower until hour 30...(thank God for the broken Force Shield spell). I use her readily, and all the time.

[Scimal]

xylrocks wrote...

1) The difficulty scale is non-existent: One minute I am rocking the joint, the next slaughtered. I know this has been a consistent problem throughout...my question is why?? Mass Effect had no such bad scaling of difficulty (I have beat it on all difficulties and have multiple characters that I did it with). Why is this broken BioWare? Why?

It seems you may be having problems with your tactics.. The only noticable increase in difficult was fairly late in the game during confrontations with a certain antagonists army in a certain major city. The archers there were a bit ridiculous, but after 3 reloads I figured it out and then it was a piece of cake.

2) In order for you to succeed without sheer luck you need to have a nuking mage in your party. If I want to roll with an archer, healz, tank and rogue or 2h warrior I am out of luck, becuase one minute I am doing fine than the system spawns 14 archers on me with two yellow shrieks. And of course my archer can't kill one of them by herself (yes by herself, she dies when she faces another archer by herself). Without an AOE mage I am screwed.

It seems you may be having problems with your tactics. Try looking for cover, and keep in mind the most obvious cover - like a wall - is often the best.

3) In order to play on any sort of difficulty I have to roll one of three archetypes: Tank with shield, elemental mage, or dual wield rogue. Why? because a hexing mage falls the same issue my archer does: she sucks, because archers don't do damage, and 2h warriors miss ALL THE TIME (roughly 1/2...the weapon is so big it would be nigh impossible to miss anything!)(even with 48 strength @ lvl 14 and 30 dex)

It seems you may be having problems with your tactics. You can acquire any or all of those archetypes without rolling them, and of the three only the first is very beneficial. A Hexing mage is not meant to deal damage, but to massively debhilitate the enemy. Two-handed warriors can improve their ability to hit overtime and can be buffed to hit more often, both by themselves and other party members.

In conclusion I expected more polish on the character classes in a BioWare game. Maybe it is because they were bought out by such a company like EA that pushes out crap on a daily basis, or they just had too many games on their plate (ME2, DA:O, TOR-The Old Republic)
Or maybe I am just doing something horribly wrong which can be true too...oh I can just respec my party and....oh....

It seems you may be having problems with your tactics. The inability to respecialize does not eliminate the usefulness of your current specializations.

So BioWare please update this game FAST. I would enjoy rolling every single class combination as soon as possible, but when all I can do is sit in the shadow of a mage and plink away with my 2h axe or my mighty bow and arrow, I don't want to play (BTW I have three friends who are playing an elemenatl mage, and dual weapon rogue/warrior and they are doing fine, I mean earthquake>cone of ice>fireball clears 12 archers pretty fast. But it takes 6 min for me to kill them without a nuke mage...wtf....)

Try harder.

[hexaligned]

Mass effect fan complaining about a game that requires thinking, and is actually dependant on good stat distribution. Who could have seen that coming.



Warriors are fine, I'm on the PC playing on nightmare right now, my DW war "tank" is near unkillable, and puts out some sick damage. In other words, take the time you spend complaining and learn how to play the game.

[robertthebard]

xylrocks wrote...

to Robartthebard:
1) I use Wynne, I abuse Wynne. Unfortunately for me I didn't go to the Mage's Tower until hour 30...(thank God for the broken Force Shield spell). I use her readily, and all the time.

I use her a lot, if I do the mage tower first.  If not, she's a decoration in my camp, or hitchhiking behind Morrigan for heals until I can get her a few levels to make her useful on her own.

[xylrocks]

to robertthebard:

I do use Wynne, I was referring to the relative ease that can be accomplished by adding another mage to rofl-wreck everything.

To everyone who posted:

Thank you. i have been looking over everything and have been trying build a more solid foundation of the game. Especially considering I intend to beat this game at all difficulty settings like I did with Mass Effect

[xylrocks]

to robertthebard:

I do use Wynne, I was referring to the relative ease that can be accomplished by adding another mage to rofl-wreck everything.

To everyone who posted:

Thank you. i have been looking over everything and have been trying build a more solid foundation of the game. Especially considering I intend to beat this game at all difficulty settings like I did with Mass Effect

[KingTazzo]

WildstarGoethe wrote...

OP is correct on one point, at least; there truly are some unreasonable spikes in enemy scaling/battle difficulty. Whether or not it should be "fixed", however, is debatable. Maybe Bioware intended the game to play out like this.

I'm sure some such spikes are accidental but equally some are certainly deliberate. I'd say if it's a side quest / non-storyline mob then it can be as hard as they like. Remember Kangaxx or that secret mage guild room in BG2!

[Deflagratio]

What difficulty are you playing on? I had none of the problems you are reporting on NIGHTMARE, I just beat the game last night.

The difficulty scale is a bit strange at times, but the Non-Linear fashion of the game, dictates that must be.  Unless you have prescision level-scaling like in Oblivion, there is going to be some fluctuation. Overall, I think their system is phenomenal in terms of making you feel like you gain power, while at the same time challenging the player. I'm not some elitist turd who is like "Omg NIghtmare 0 injury thx" I reloaded many many times, my second most used key next to the Space Bar, was the F9 button.

This is a TACTICAL game. If you're having problems with Archers, look for cover to draw them out. If you're having issues hitting a target, use Debuffs like Below the Belt. Honestly, The combat in DA:O is the most rewarding of any Game I've played in recent memory. As a tactical game, you are going to have to have specialization of characters to overcome situations. A ton of warriors are going to get slaughtered, as for the whole "NEED ELEMENTAL MAGIC MAGE" I disagree. I had a Morrigan as a Healer-Entropy Hybrid with only maxing the Primal Ice tract. Which really wasn't used all that much. I used her hex and crowd control Entropy spells more. Although certain times, combos like Sleep + Horror, or Cone of Cold + Pinpoint Strike were amazingly effective. Leliana was one of my most powerful damage dealing characters as an Archer, and her Bard Abilities were extremly useful to say the least. I set the tactical AI to have Leliana do Song of Courage (ATK, DMG, CRIT Bonus) Until Morrigan fell below 50% MP, then she'd switch to Song of Valor (Stamina/Mana Regeneration) this combo let me quickly dispatch as many enemies as possible to thin enemy ranks and mitigate damage while I tackled Yellow Rank or Orange Rank enemies. Leliana is also extremly useful for a tecnique that MMO players call "Kiting". Whenever Alistair, my Tank fell, and there was still too many enemies to force a direct confrontation with squishy rogue, I used my Rogue (Duelist/Assassin) or Morrigan to Kite enemies around while Leliana picked them off one by one. With Bard's Dancing Shoes and Dalish Promise ring, She rarely gained hostility. One thing I will point out, is LONGBOWS are significantly Weaker than SHORTBOWS early in the game before you have access to Rapid Aim equipment. Shortbows fire very fast and keep a high DPS. and it's Rare you need to utilize the additional range of Longbows until later in the game.

Now all that said, you are right on some isntances, I would like to see less emphasis on Archetype (particulalry dual-wield rogue). There should have been a tract that specializes in use of only 1 weapon with nothing in the offhand. or more accurately, the Duelist should have obtained super high bonuses from using 1 weapon, like massive Accuracy, damage and Critical hit bonuses for using only 1 weapon. I've started now what I plan to use as an Arcane warrior/Spirit Healer build, so I'll investigate additional problems with Balance now. But on Nightmare, There is an urgent need for a real Tank and Healer,  So I don't expect mutch to change.