45 réponses à ce sujet

[FreakyBigGuy]

This is rather long, so just bear with me. I made it as short as I could.

I have always found this encounter to be the only one in whole BGI+TotSC that I can't solve to my satisfaction.

Few points:

Aldeth Sashentar (baldurian merchant) and friends (nowhere to be seen) do every year a sport hunting trip to Cloakwood. This year Aldeth claims they received threaths from local druids to stop hunting. Aldeth also says that after few more days of hunting his dear friend Elban got murdered by the druids and they have been holed up in their cabin ever since.

Problem is Aldeth Sashentar is magic resistant, so I can't get "reading" from him with Known Alignment spell. The druids list -> Seniyad neutral + 3 good out of the same mold druids.

Seniyad claims that they (hunting group) brought this up by murdering one of the druids in cold blood and have probably lied for PC's protection. The PC's party can leave as druids have no quarrel with them.

I have always sided with Aldeth for two main reasons:

1) The druids won't talk this out, they are out for blood/murder

2) The line which you use to side with druids is 'odd':

Sorry A, we are siding with the druids. They have this great Aloe-Vera balm, they are giving free samples of,
and my armor has been chafing a bit, ya know.

(The other being sthing like: We can't let you just murder these men, can't we come to a peaceful solution?) -> fight

This is really bugging me. The druids seem to be good (neutral) and honest, but the consequences seem wrong.
Aldeth seems to be what he claims-> hunter and merchant. Its word against word and if you get involved you have to kill one or the other.

I have also read that Aldeth's good aligned brother comes after you in BG if you sided with druids. Is this just civilization versus nature question, or what? Can anyone "strike" me with either knowledge or wisdom (which is only possessed by learning).

[corey_russell]

I think the designers of the game intentionally wanted to add a bit a of "gray" to this encounter. That is, not make it very clear which side is the "good" or "evil" choice. It's just one more example of people getting involved with the PC and they die (a rather recurrent theme in BG). In reality of course, there is severe lacking of evidence to know which side to go with (e.g., if druid died where's his body, and if Aldeth's buddy died where his? Also, he says he has buddies which are no where to be seen, what is their account?). Problem is neither side is going to sit around while you investigate, so the PC pretty much only has his gut to help him decide which side to take, if any.

[corey_russell]

Grr, double post.

Modifié par corey_russell, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:02 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

With the BG1 NPC Project installed and Jaheira in your group, you will be able to mediate between the two sides.

[FreakyBigGuy]

I find it annoying when I cannot find the side which is at least more right than the other. Here you can't investigate or mediate. You just have to make blind pick. If nobody has divine insight, I think i will just pass it this time, because I cannot follow my nature



And then I have the handicap that I can only accept vanilla or at least restoration

on original script.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Then you have to choose the parameters. What makes a person right (in this instance)? Is really an evil person inevitably always the bad bad guy (and why else would a Detect Alignment spell be conclusive)?

But what really interests me is why you are avoiding all mods.

[FreakyBigGuy]

I am (in almost every situation) against later modification. I see original as canon and fan modifications as "fiction". My english doesn't have better way of explaining it.



In this case I just find annoying that I can't come to a solution after which I can pad myself on the back I hate blind decisions.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

That's what justice is about though. Everything else is just a fairy tale.

But if this fiction can enrich your experience (and solve your problems with the canon), what's so bad about accepting it?

[FreakyBigGuy]

Justice is always somewhat blind, but this case is like man held in dark room for years and then thrust into bright daylight. So blind it hurts



I guess I have great respect for authorities/official.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Then let's make it a bit clearer for you:

A man who is not willing to talk to somebody else before killing them is not a good guy and needs to be stopped.

(I will not further press into the matter of official vs mods, it's your own decision, even if I find it [something that is not grapefruit])

[corey_russell]

Although if you have Jaheira in the party it gets complicated again, as despite her True Neutral alignment, she definitely seems to favor most good ways of solving things. But her superior is in that group you talking about Taifun... (they really should have made her say something if you end up killing him).

[FreakyBigGuy]

@corey_russell: You say Seniyad is high rank among the same group who raised Jaheira?



@Humanoid_Taifun: I have been somewhat eye for an eye is justice guy myself, so if Seniyad is speaking thruth about druid killed in cold blood so death penalty is my idea of justice. Should the druids be the one to decide it, no. Would they accept anyone elses ruling, probably no. I still find it to be hard to justify either siding with Sashentar or the druids. Maybe we would need Tyr's paladin.



Still about mods: I just have this feeling that original creators should only tamper with finished works and even then with very good reason, thats why I avoid mods. I'm not sure there is even reason based argument for it.

[corey_russell]

If you have Jaheira in your group when you encounter the shadow druids in the Cloakwood, they tell you before they attack that she is aligned with Seniyad's group of druids.

[FreakyBigGuy]

UTC+2 Getting late



Interesting. Did not remember that. And Jaheira says nothing when you kill (tested) four of her kin. It is also interesting that only (if I remember some posts correctly) killing Aldeth has repercussions and + the I'm siding with the druids comment is absurd.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

You cannot exact justice by going around killing people you have quickly judged deserving of death, especially not in an environment where it is so easy to fake evidence by use of illusions and mind altering spells and doppelgangers. No matter if you think death penalty is appropiate or not, you need to have some sort of jury to decide whether a man is guilty, otherwise you're just (another) psychopath in the woods.

Also, what is a very good reason to mod? Bugs? Really bad AI? Possibilities for improvements of the graphics? Imbalanced spell system (with several spells that no sane man will ever memorize)? Loose strings of plot?

[FreakyBigGuy]

Ooh, still awake.

Yet here the choice is thus: Slay one or other or just slip away (avoiding solves nothing). Death penalty demands convincing proof of deed, uncorrupt system and society system, but as paladin I would be in real trouble there in Cloakwood. Somebody is about to die and I have no proof in one way or another. Divine guidance? Try to break the situation by knocking everyone down, tieing them up and taking them to Friendly Arm Inn?

I have one situation where I have used mod. KotORII (Sith Lords) + TSL Restored Content Mod version 1.6. The ending is horribly patched up. And as far as I could tell, it was mostly restorative effort.

Edit: "No matter if you think death penalty is appropiate or not, you need to have some sort of jury to decide whether a man is guilty" -Humanoid-Taifun 

Agreed. Of course if I was Chaotic good I could just go with the flow

Modifié par FreakyBigGuy, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[FreakyBigGuy]

Some bug with refresh?

Modifié par FreakyBigGuy, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:12 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Baldur's Gate doesn't seem to expect you to leave every attacker alive. It's not your fault the druids didn't accept your plea for civilized discussion and in that they are not the only ones (Balthazar, Kaishas, the paladins at the beginning of Windspear Hills being other noteworthy examples of people I'd rather not have been forced to kill in the vanilla game) as with all others you cannot be held responsible for the decision to not be reasonable.

Don't judge one mod by another. KotOR (1 & 2) is, to my knowledge a lot more difficult to mod than Baldur's Gate, and the community also has had notably more time to acquire experience with the engine (and the tools). There are many mods that seemlessly work with the original game, and others that don't, but still work pretty well (and I wouldn't want to play BG1 again without either Tutu or BGT).

Oh, and yes, the forum is a bit buggy, and doesn't offer all the comforts one may be used from others (actual time stamps or distinct markings for unread threads for example). Get used to it or go elsewhere I guess, because it doesn't look like Bioware is planning on fixing things.

[FreakyBigGuy]

Yep. In this case the added difficulty is that it can't be solved by talking and you have to almost blindly pick side. Usually you are just defending yourself from unreasonable "people".



Its like this, its pretty rare I feel the game has so big flaw, that I go search out for unofficial solution. It has to be clearly evident and considerably hamper the game.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

And now I got you onto the slippery slope. All that's left to do is point out one or two major flaws and you can book a room in hell.

So, how about the fact that whatever happens to the NPCs in your group (and whoever you take with you) has no impact on what happens in BG2?

How about the serious business that is the Beregost Crash?

How about inventory management?

How about a resolution of 1680 x 1050 (or better)?

How about unrealistically crappy enemy AI that allows you to pick off one enemy at a time with ranged weapons while their friends are standing right beside them?

How about being able to actually play the sorcerer or half orc that was introduced in BG2 actually from Candlekeep to the Throne of Bhaal, and not being forced to start in the middle of the adventure?

(there are many more BG2 specific How abouts, as I don't know BG1 quite well enough to comment on it on the same level of detail)

[FreakyBigGuy]

Number 1 and 5 are the only ones that have conserned me. Although the way I have played the game the party I have almost always used is PC+Imoen+JahKhalid+DynMinsc which transforms pretty well to BGII. Of course everyone likes more depth to characters.



Number five I solve by taking enemy groups as whole. It hampers roleplay if one "cheats" that way. In bgII there are fights where I admit using some luring (twisted rune).



As to the subject:



corey_russell told it right -> Izefia (shadow druid):



"You are friends of Jaheira, are you not? She is of the druidic order that follows Seniyad, one of the three archdruids. Well, I do not share their philosophy!" then many more lines of this cannot be tolerated and fight.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Then the mods for you are (in the following order): G3 BG2 Fixpack, BGT, SCS (better calls for help).

You could also add BG1 NPC Project, since it resolves the titular issue. Don't forget to patch your games though.

[FreakyBigGuy]

Patching done.



I'll check those out. One never knows, if doesn't even check.



P.S. All the shadow druids in Cloakwood gets pissed about Jaheira, didn't remember that.

[The Fred]

About the druids:

Seniyad is meant to be the Arch-Druid of Cloakwood (but the Shadow Druids are a different order and thus have a different leader) and of the same order as Jaheira, which is why it's not only a bit ridiculous that they Jaheira wouldn't say anything but also that Seniyad is actually pretty easy to kill.



If you side with the Druids, you do indeed get attacked by Aldeth's brother later on. However, you also lose out on Aldeth's quest in Baldur's Gate late, where he wants you to help him sort out his merchant company, the other top members of which have been acting strangely. So, I think in non-RP terms (i.e. XP, items etc) the two more or less balance out.



About mods:

I understand about the whole cannon/non-cannon thing, which is why I personally advocate that a person play the original game at least once before trying mods (with the exception of perhaps fixpacks, etc). However, I don't see anything wrong with playing a mod because at the end of the day, all you're doing either way is playing a game someone else has made. So, this time, a different person has made it. So what? As long as you realise whilst you're playing it that this is just one (ir maybe more than one) person's interpretation of how the game should be, and a different person to the original developers, I think that's fine.

If you still feel uncomfortable with it, you can very much choose which mods to add. Some, for example, make drastic changes, whereas others make only tweaks. Unfinished Business, for example, adds only quests which look like they were already planned, but cut from the game, so it's arguable that using it is how the developers would have prefered it. A mod like Fields of the Dead, by contrast, makes huge sweeping changes to the game - but on the other hand, it makes them fairly. The various penalties and bonuses people might get are got equally by you and by NPCs, and so forth, and, even if you don't agree with that, you can just say to yourself, "OK, I've just played BG, now I'm playing Fields of the Dead, it's NOT BG, it's a completely different game much like watching a re-make of an old film." But at the end of the day, it's your choice.

[FreakyBigGuy]

That is quite the game (roleplay wise) hamper. Jaheira doesn't say anything when/if you just kill one of the archdruids of her order.



On mods: I would most likely use modifications that don't change the rules of the game, maybe add something from BGII and so on.



Maybe I just own so many great games that I haven't delved into the added content