98 réponses à ce sujet

[2kgnsiika]

The7Sins wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Seriously the gunplay in ME1 wasn't all that great and if you used the right mods, you could fire forever.

Which is what made ME1 a unique experience and made its combat great. Well that and the fact Biotics worked in people who had shields and there was no global cooldown. But I digress things in ME3 needs to either return to how they were in ME1 or make some kind of hybrid system in which you rely on thermal clips until your out @ whuch point the gun reverts to how it was in ME1 until you get more clips.

I couldn't disagree more. While ME1 was a great game in its own right and had a better main story than ME2, the action just does not compare. At all. After a year of playing ME2, I've been trying to do another playthrough of ME1 but I keep getting put off by the relative lameness. The gunplay in ME2 is very tactical (especially for the Vanguard, my favorite class) and yet always such a rush. There's a constant juggling of accurately dealing damage, maintaining CC and retaining your shields. In ME1 it's mostly about who has better stats. When you're above level 40 and you have Spectre gear, good armor, upgrades and ridiculous powers like Immunity or Singularity, there's just no challenge even on Insanity.

But what does this have to do with thermal clips? It's pretty simple: if everyone can spam their weapons on full auto all the time, shields/armor have to be very strong, or you can cut through anything like butter. And this is exactly what it was like in ME1. Those enemies that had Immunity could take huge amounts of damage from fully upgraded Spectre weapons. Those that couldn't posed absolutely no threat. How those geth weaklings could ever pose a threat to trained marines is beyond my comprehension.

[SalsaDMA]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Most ammo lovers "think" it is more realistic and "tactical." In this way they are like republicans and belive if they say it enough it will become true. In reality, realistic would be ejecting a thermal clip with any shots remaining on it would take those shots out of your pool of "ammo" as that thermal clip is now on the ground, but instead the game "realisticly" (sarcasm) shuffles the remaining shots back into the pool of "ammo." Also the guns descriptions include Element Zero which does not exist and there for is in no way real.

Since there isn't any technical descriptions of how heatclips work internally, you are just making asumptions in this regard.

As another poster once suggested: Given the info we have been given so far, there is nothing to prohibit that heatclips inject a fluid into the weapons 'heatsink area', much like water is stored in a waterpistol. Upgrade diagrams would even suggest such a compartment on the weapons. This would both explain why heatsink material injected into one weapon is not transferable to another weapon, and why the ejected 'heat clips' look nothing like the thermal clips we pick up from the ground, as well as why one clip gives variable amounts of ammo depending on which weapon it is injected in.

But I guess just making a single asumption about how things might work and then basing your entire comment on asuming stuff you have no factual evidence to back up is alot easier, right?

Fact is that they haven't explained how the clips work internally, so for all we know, "A wizard did it".

If anything, I'm wondering why people are always discussing thermal clips, when those are pretty reasonable, but never bats an eye at powercells and heavy weapons (Which I personally find alot more suspect)...

[madmansfury]

2kgnsiika wrote...

The7Sins wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Seriously the gunplay in ME1 wasn't all that great and if you used the right mods, you could fire forever.

Which is what made ME1 a unique experience and made its combat great. Well that and the fact Biotics worked in people who had shields and there was no global cooldown. But I digress things in ME3 needs to either return to how they were in ME1 or make some kind of hybrid system in which you rely on thermal clips until your out @ whuch point the gun reverts to how it was in ME1 until you get more clips.

I couldn't disagree more. While ME1 was a great game in its own right and had a better main story than ME2, the action just does not compare. At all. After a year of playing ME2, I've been trying to do another playthrough of ME1 but I keep getting put off by the relative lameness. The gunplay in ME2 is very tactical (especially for the Vanguard, my favorite class) and yet always such a rush. There's a constant juggling of accurately dealing damage, maintaining CC and retaining your shields. In ME1 it's mostly about who has better stats. When you're above level 40 and you have Spectre gear, good armor, upgrades and ridiculous powers like Immunity or Singularity, there's just no challenge even on Insanity.

But what does this have to do with thermal clips? It's pretty simple: if everyone can spam their weapons on full auto all the time, shields/armor have to be very strong, or you can cut through anything like butter. And this is exactly what it was like in ME1. Those enemies that had Immunity could take huge amounts of damage from fully upgraded Spectre weapons. Those that couldn't posed absolutely no threat. How those geth weaklings could ever pose a threat to trained marines is beyond my comprehension.

but turning ME2 into an action game is not the way to go.  in an rpg ammo (lets be real here that's what thermal clips are) should not be an issue.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Yeah but odds are the weapons will work like they did in ME1 since forumgoers decided that the devs should focus on lore instead of gameplay.

when was it said by the devs that this would take place!?!?

I certainly hope not... gameplay > lore..... you play a game to have fun, and what makes the game fun is the gameplay. lol

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

2kgnsiika wrote...

The7Sins wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Seriously the gunplay in ME1 wasn't all that great and if you used the right mods, you could fire forever.

Which is what made ME1 a unique experience and made its combat great. Well that and the fact Biotics worked in people who had shields and there was no global cooldown. But I digress things in ME3 needs to either return to how they were in ME1 or make some kind of hybrid system in which you rely on thermal clips until your out @ whuch point the gun reverts to how it was in ME1 until you get more clips.

I couldn't disagree more. While ME1 was a great game in its own right and had a better main story than ME2, the action just does not compare. At all. After a year of playing ME2, I've been trying to do another playthrough of ME1 but I keep getting put off by the relative lameness. The gunplay in ME2 is very tactical (especially for the Vanguard, my favorite class) and yet always such a rush. There's a constant juggling of accurately dealing damage, maintaining CC and retaining your shields. In ME1 it's mostly about who has better stats. When you're above level 40 and you have Spectre gear, good armor, upgrades and ridiculous powers like Immunity or Singularity, there's just no challenge even on Insanity.

But what does this have to do with thermal clips? It's pretty simple: if everyone can spam their weapons on full auto all the time, shields/armor have to be very strong, or you can cut through anything like butter. And this is exactly what it was like in ME1. Those enemies that had Immunity could take huge amounts of damage from fully upgraded Spectre weapons. Those that couldn't posed absolutely no threat. How those geth weaklings could ever pose a threat to trained marines is beyond my comprehension.

^
THIS!!

Agree 100%

[TheBlackBaron]

SalsaDMA wrote...
If anything, I'm wondering why people are always discussing thermal clips, when those are pretty reasonable, but never bats an eye at powercells and heavy weapons (Which I personally find alot more suspect)...

Because the thermals clips are a change from what it was in ME1, and judging from the frequency of these threads, quite a few people don't seem to understand the mechanics or reasoning behind them. 

[madmansfury]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
If anything, I'm wondering why people are always discussing thermal clips, when those are pretty reasonable, but never bats an eye at powercells and heavy weapons (Which I personally find alot more suspect)...

Because the thermals clips are a change from what it was in ME1, and judging from the frequency of these threads, quite a few people don't seem to understand the mechanics or reasoning behind them. 

So explain it to me.  I truly want to know.

Modifié par madmansfury, 01 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[TheBlackBaron]

madmansfury wrote...
So explain it to me.  I truly want to know.

I really need to copy this to a .txt file so I can just paste it from there when this topic invariably pops again in a month. 

First off, a quote from ME2's updated codex entry on small arms:

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

It's fairly self-explanatory. Basically, instead of either having to reduce your rate of fire to manage heat or wait several seconds to let the sinks cool, both of which limit the number of rounds you're putting down range, you can simply fire as fast as needed and then quickly - much more quickly than the time it takes to cool down - swap in a new heat sink and keep going. 

A theory I read earlier that makes the most sense to me is that the heat sink is basically a coolant system within the gun. The new thermal clips allow you to eject waste coolant immediately and inject fresh coolant into the system instead of waiting for the now hot coolant to recycle/cool back down. 

Similar to how the Treaty of Farixen is based on the Washington Naval Treaty, this has a real-life parallel. After WWII, the US military did some studies on how combat actually took place, and found that the a) most casualties took place at short ranges, meaning the range and accuracy of battle rifles was wasted, that the number one predictor of casualties was the total number of bullets fired, and c) that soldiers equipped with rapid fire weapons were far more likely to actually use their weapons in combat. The Germans had already figured this out during the war, which is why they organized their infantry tactics around squad-level machine guns like the MG34 and MG42, and developed the Stg-44.

Eventually we picked up on this, which led to the adoption of modern assault rifles such as the M-16 and AK-47 (there's another step in between for guns like the M-14 and FN FAL, but they lead to the same place). 

[madmansfury]

I still prefer heat sinks, but i do understand. it was also proposed that you could have choice to use therm clips or heat sinks. i think that's a fair compromise.

[TheBlackBaron]

madmansfury wrote...

I still prefer heat sinks, but i do understand. it was also proposed that you could have choice to use therm clips or heat sinks. i think that's a fair compromise.

My only beef with most of these compromise situations is that they propose making thermal clips a rare pickup used in emergency situations, which I wholeheartedly disagree with and would be a huge retcon, at least on the scale of what many people that complain about the thermal clip claim them to be (even though they're not a retcon at all). 

I have my own idea on how they could improve it for ME3, which I happen to think is pretty damn good (but then, I might be biased ) but I don't want to add to the flood of threads already up on the subject, and posting it within one of them it would probably just get lost. 

[lazuli]

madmansfury wrote...

I still prefer heat sinks, but i do understand. it was also proposed that you could have choice to use therm clips or heat sinks. i think that's a fair compromise.

The developers came out and said they tried that system, and that it just didn't work out for optimal gameplay.

[Evil_Weasel]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Most ammo lovers "think" it is more realistic and "tactical." In this way they are like republicans and belive if they say it enough it will become true. In reality, realistic would be ejecting a thermal clip with any shots remaining on it would take those shots out of your pool of "ammo" as that thermal clip is now on the ground, but instead the game "realisticly" (sarcasm) shuffles the remaining shots back into the pool of "ammo." Also the guns descriptions include Element Zero which does not exist and there for is in no way real.

Since there isn't any technical descriptions of how heatclips work internally, you are just making asumptions in this regard.

As another poster once suggested: Given the info we have been given so far, there is nothing to prohibit that heatclips inject a fluid into the weapons 'heatsink area', much like water is stored in a waterpistol. Upgrade diagrams would even suggest such a compartment on the weapons. This would both explain why heatsink material injected into one weapon is not transferable to another weapon, and why the ejected 'heat clips' look nothing like the thermal clips we pick up from the ground, as well as why one clip gives variable amounts of ammo depending on which weapon it is injected in.

But I guess just making a single asumption about how things might work and then basing your entire comment on asuming stuff you have no factual evidence to back up is alot easier, right?

Fact is that they haven't explained how the clips work internally, so for all we know, "A wizard did it".

If anything, I'm wondering why people are always discussing thermal clips, when those are pretty reasonable, but never bats an eye at powercells and heavy weapons (Which I personally find alot more suspect)...

I am not assuming anything, if the game tells me I have 50 shots total for a pistol, then fire them one at a time reloading after each shot, then I will eject 50 different things. If infact it is injecting a liquid As another poster once suggested then if I eject the container to the ground, does not the unsed fluid contained there in not go to the ground aswell?

I find it funny that you tried to take me to task about assumeing things, then say another poster once suggested, then turn around with, "so for all we know, "A wizard did it"."

So if a wizard did it for all we know the person you refer to was assuming as well, what makes their assumtions so golden that you reference their post? But thank you I was able to use the liquid theory to further support my claim that unuesd portions of thermal clips should be removed from the ammo pool since that liquid should be in contained in that half full thermal clip one has ejected from their gun.

[JayhartRIC]

Most shooters work like that though. I don't understand that complaint. It is a common gameplay concession that unused ammo doesn't get tossed with the expended magazine. People complain about their squadmates or enemies not running out of ammo, but I don't know of any game where that happens either. In the Halo games, you can give an NPC one of the Covenant weapons with one shot left and they'll fire as long as they want. A lot of people are holding this game to standards way higher than other games deal with.

Modifié par JayhartRIC, 01 février 2011 - 03:28 .

[Evil_Weasel]

JayhartRIC wrote...

Most shooters work like that though. I don't understand that complaint. It is a common gameplay concession that unused ammo doesn't get tossed with the expended magazine. People complain about their squadmates or enemies not running out of ammo, but I don't know of any game where that happens either. In the Halo games, you can give an NPC one of the Covenant weapons with one shot left and they'll fire as long as they want. A lot of people are holding this game to standards way higher than other games deal with.

It isnt a complaint so much as one person locking on to a single aspect of one of my earlyer post. That post compares some of the sentements expresed in an ammo vs heat system debate, and one of the ammo lovers arguments is offten that "ammo" is more realistic. My point is if they want realistic they have never got realistic because as you mention "Most shooters work like that." Thing is ammo being recycled from old clips is just not some automatic process in the real world. In a truly tactical shooter if your carrying two spare 30 round clips of ammo and eject your primary when it gets down to 5 bullets to get full ammo again or choose to place those last 5 shots well. Maybe you need to reload now as your about to breach a room and need all the bullets you can get to engage targets, but getting those last 5 bullets cycled back in in the middle of hevy fire is just not very realistic.

Now I get that you could eventualy take bullets out of droped clips, but that takes time and isnt somthing you can do in the middle of a fight.....kinda like reloading a light machin gun in COD MW, chances are you will get shot up if you dont reload somewere safe, same with consolodating remaining bullets from partialy spent clips. As for that last post I was specificly qouted and accused of assuming how guns work in ME.

As for NPCs getting infinit ammo, in many games they are terrible shots or do reduced damage as well. In Halo you only get a few occasions were you can give NPCs weapons and those are ment to be fun action/cinima like moments as opposed to well balanced chalenges (and thats really fun when they all get rocket launchers or fule rods).

[Phaedon]

Overheating weapons are bad.

A hybrid system however is quite welcome, imo.

Modifié par Phaedon, 01 février 2011 - 12:02 .

[Lumikki]

madmansfury wrote...

but turning ME2 into an action game is not the way to go.  in an rpg ammo (lets be real here that's what thermal clips are) should not be an issue.

Yeah, but Mass Effect combat side is not RPG, it's Third-person shooter, so "ammo" has bigger meaning. ME1 and ME2 are what they are, no-one can turn them to anything anymore, because they have been published allready. If you talk ME3 turning to something, then that's other question. How ever, what different people want ME3 to be is totally based they own taste of games.

Interesting "idea" in here, about npcs run out of "ammos". If team members could get from and give ammos for each others. mm...

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 février 2011 - 12:10 .

[InvaderErl]

This forum is literally the only place I've seen complaints about the ammo so no to the OP you are by far not the only person who prefers the ammo.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 février 2011 - 12:14 .

[JackhammerGR]

I remember in ME 1 there was a 33% chance that when the overheat happened, it would never cool down(To me at least). And when you are fighting against krogans, and you are a sentinel, that's a bad thing...I vote for ammo.

[lawp79]

Phaedon wrote...

Overheating weapons are bad.

A hybrid system however is quite welcome, imo.

This. If you run out of clips it reverts to the overheating method.

[Phaedon]

lawp79 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Overheating weapons are bad.

A hybrid system however is quite welcome, imo.

This. If you run out of clips it reverts to the overheating method.

Like this?

[InvaderErl]

lawp79 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Overheating weapons are bad.

A hybrid system however is quite welcome, imo.

This. If you run out of clips it reverts to the overheating method.

I would be down for that as long as the overheating was really restrictive. More of a *oh ****, there's a Krogan in front of me and I need to squeeze off two or three more shots to finish him* approach than a real alternative to the thermal clips.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 février 2011 - 12:54 .

[InvaderErl]

I doubt it will change, Bioware has repeatedly said they're happy (so they should be) with the core game mechanics.

[SalsaDMA]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

I am not assuming anything, if the game tells me I have 50 shots total for a pistol, then fire them one at a time reloading after each shot, then I will eject 50 different things. If infact it is injecting a liquid As another poster once suggested then if I eject the container to the ground, does not the unsed fluid contained there in not go to the ground aswell?

An easy asumption could be that you never actually insert the thermal clip itself, but inject the fluids from it in your weapons. You aren't 'inserting' a container anywhere in your weapon, but getting the fluids transfered directly from the thermal clip into the weapon (Which also would explain the inability to move heat sink material from one weapon to another). Thus the only way to eject the fluids is to either use them, and thus force them through the normal way of getting released, or dismantling your weapon. I'm not sure about you, but dismantling my weapon unprovoked during combat isn't something I would expect any combatant to do, nor is it possible to do so in the game. Think waterpistol as how you store heatsink material in the weapon, and thermal clips as special containers of 'magic water' you use to pour water from the containers into your water pistols.

And for technical reasons, the game doesn't bother keeping track of half used clips. Picking up items is a binary action. You either do it fully, thus causing it to disappear from the enviroment, or you don't do it, causing it to stay in the enviroment. The game doesn't allow you to pick up a clip, inject half of the heatsink materials into your weapons, fire off a few rounds and then use the same clip to inject the rest of the material to compensate for the shots you just fired. This is a technical limitation of the gaming engine, not an issue of lore. Just like it doesn't allow you to pick up half of the credits on a credit chip lying in the enviroment, for example.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 02 février 2011 - 06:40 .