104 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

tmp7704 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

If Alistair had left your party, for instance, once you chose to let Loghain live, and shown up in the final battle the way Irving or Eamon does, I would understand.

Both Irving and Eamon have the advantage of knowing when the main army performs the attack, as well as where this attack actually takes place. After Alistair quits, he's out of this loop -- he might well be in Redcliffe where the battle was originally expected to happen, or on his way to the capital city, or even long dead after trying to storm the castle entirely on his own.

If he actually did show up in that final battle... that'd quite cheapen the whole split thing during Landsmeet imo as it'd make it easy to "eat the cake and still keep it" getting both Loghain and Alistair. As it is, it's left up the the player's imagination what happens to Alistair. That plenty people are so quick to write him off and decide he'd completely quit the fight... it's interesting as it doesn't show much faith in him.

I see your point, but the epilogue slideshow clearly said he went off somewhere to be a raving drunk.  Like I said before, I never play evil characters, or epic douchebags, so I would never choose Loghain, but it's kind of sad that that is how it plays out.  It *ought* to be different, just like choosing Harrowmont and allowing the Chantry into Orzammar *ought* to be "good" choices. 

Anyway, judging Alistair's entire character by a choice he *could* make at the end is pretty lame.  He *could* run off, or he *could* gallantly sacrifice his life for you and the kingdom.  Loghain, on the other hand, is definitely a slaver, murderer, poisoner, and would-be despot who almost destroys the kingdom.  Choosing him over Alistair because Alistair won't *listen* to you . . . uh, yeah, I don't get it.

[tmp7704]

Ahh i stand corrected then, did not know about the slideshow part. It's a pity they'd reveal such kind of ending for him, sometimes less is more.

[Nial Black-Knee]

I kind of liked how Loghains blood splattered all over his daughter. Especialy when two minutes later she went back on the deal we made.



Alitair deciding to quit you if you let Loghain live is actualy perfect human nature. People make rash foolhardy decisions everday based on pure emotion without thinking it through. And Alistair is in my opinion a very emotional type person.

[kaispan]

Yeah, I was totally in the "wtf he should listen to meeeee" mode until I read David Gaider's response:

David Gaider wrote...

With Loghain, however, it's a different matter. He swore that the man would die. Loghain is responsible for the death of Duncan and all his friends in the Grey Wardens. He thinks the man is evil, and if anything his DUTY would be to keep him OUT of the Grey Wardens.

You think Alistair could be convinced because you want to think that. Alistair isn't spineless, but you're arguing that he is and should bend to your every whim because-- why? Because you're selfish? I get the desire behind it, but let's not mistake one thing for the other. Anyone saying they "know Alistair" and believe he would actually do such a thing is ignoring one of the most important things about him.

If you really want to change Alistair into someone else because that makes it more convenient to have your happy ending, I get it and I understand. But I know my character.

http://social.biowar...202678/6#230314
That shut me up right quick. ^__^

Modifié par kaispan, 24 novembre 2009 - 09:36 .

[Duck and Cover]

In the estate I got Alistair to agree to marry Anora, but that option never seemed to come up during Landsmeet, anyone know why that is?



Every dialogue option I chose in Landsmeet didn't seem to matter. Still had to fight the guy, and I still seemed to get the votes. I'm just curious how I get the other options other people are talking about.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Duck and Cover wrote...

In the estate I got Alistair to agree to marry Anora, but that option never seemed to come up during Landsmeet, anyone know why that is?

Every dialogue option I chose in Landsmeet didn't seem to matter. Still had to fight the guy, and I still seemed to get the votes. I'm just curious how I get the other options other people are talking about.

If you tell Alistair to kill Loghain? Anora will not marry him, no matter what she promised you.  You have to get promises from both of them agreeing to marry each other, and you kill Loghain personaly.

[red8x]

kaispan wrote...

Yeah, I was totally in the "wtf he should listen to meeeee" mode until I read David Gaider's response:

David Gaider wrote...

With Loghain, however, it's a different matter. He swore that the man would die. Loghain is responsible for the death of Duncan and all his friends in the Grey Wardens. He thinks the man is evil, and if anything his DUTY would be to keep him OUT of the Grey Wardens.

You think Alistair could be convinced because you want to think that. Alistair isn't spineless, but you're arguing that he is and should bend to your every whim because-- why? Because you're selfish? I get the desire behind it, but let's not mistake one thing for the other. Anyone saying they "know Alistair" and believe he would actually do such a thing is ignoring one of the most important things about him.

If you really want to change Alistair into someone else because that makes it more convenient to have your happy ending, I get it and I understand. But I know my character.

http://social.biowar...202678/6#230314
That shut me up right quick. ^__^

Who can argue with "The Maker" ?  

Anyway, can someone please point out when Alistair swears Loghain should die?  Was it right after Ostagar?  I honestly don't remember if he ever said anything to that effect.  

Modifié par red8x, 24 novembre 2009 - 09:44 .

[Taleroth]

I could try pointing out that Alistair was with the Grey Wardens for 6 months before Ostagar. By some accounts, the time between then and Landsmeet is over a year. Wanting Loghain dead still is entirely understandable.

Willing to abandon the PC and the quest that he has been on for an even longer time over that disagreement is downright childish.  He's effectively saying that avenging his family of 6 months is more important than protecting his family of one year and more important than the lives of all Ferelden.  And there's no chance to attempt a middle ground of "Loghain lives... for now."  He has to die right there on the spot or else.

Maybe some people can look at that and think "well, it's still totally believeable for his character."  But I'd take issue with a lack of foreshadowing.  We don't see this side of him ever prior.  We do see that he treasures Duncan, we do see that he values the Grey Wardens, we don't see his willingness to abandon his friends over it.  And contrastingly, we do see his willingness to put immediate vengeance aside for the better goal of fulfilling his duty.  It's Morrigan that suggests seeking Loghain out and killing him at the beginning, not Alistair.  It seems sudden and, thus, forced. 

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 novembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[kaispan]

well, after putting him on the throne and subsequently getting dumped, I decided that there was an awful lot about his character I hadn't taken into account. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a lot there to keep....surprising me.

[Akka le Vil]

Taleroth wrote...

Maybe some people can look at that and think "well, it's still totally believeable for his character."  But I'd take issue with a lack of foreshadowing.  We don't see this side of him ever prior.  We do see that he treasures Duncan, we do see that he values the Grey Wardens, we don't see his willingness to abandon his friends over it.  And contrastingly, we do see his willingness to put immediate vengeance aside for the better goal of fulfilling his duty.  It's Morrigan that suggests seeking Loghain out and killing him at the beginning, not Alistair.  It seems sudden and, thus, forced. 

Let me reuse the example from before :

"Imagine the whole family of your wife (or husband) was slaughtered, and you came and interceded to the jury so the guy isn't sent to prison but is sent to make some social work in the same place than your spouse, and (s)he now has to cooperate with him...
Good luck trying to make a persuade check on your better half to convince her (s)he's just a "whiny douchebag hell-bent on vengeance". Something tells me YOU would be the one everyone think as a bastard."

Do you really have to get some "foreshadowing" to immediately imagine what would be the reaction of your spouse ?
Would you consider her "willing to abandon you" ?

Letting Loghain live is a COLOSSAL BETRAYAL on your part, and you wonder why he wouldn't stick with you ? Well, I would be surpised that he would.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:13 .

[AtreiyaN7]

tmp7704 wrote...

PinkShira wrote...

I totally agree.  I think with high persuation skills and the fact that he is in love with you means you can make him stay.  People keep talking about Duncan as his father, but he wants family which a female PC is giving him.  He says he's never felt like this before so why do I suddenly matter less than Duncan.

It's not a matter of mattering less, it's a matter of the person he's in love with asking him to suddenly co-operate with the person he hates the most and the murderer of what he considered to be his entire family, one he's found after years of living on his own and longing for it. I'd say this probably comes to him as a sort of betrayal he'd never expect from this one person (the PC) and it's heart-breaking for him enough on its own.

It's on the level of the human noble PC suddenly being asked to take Howe as part of the team, or that arl's **** of the son in the city elf origin line. I can definitely see why he'd blow a fuse over it and wanted nothing more to do with people who'd even consider asking him for that, but wish them all to burn in hell.

Exactly - I'd never forgive Howe after playing through the Human Noble origin this time (I was an elf the first time, so I had NO idea what he did - @#$!). I'd probably tell whoever tried to get me to pardon him/whatever to f--- off actually. People are always capable of doing something out of character and behaving irrationally if pushed past a certain  breaking  point. Yes, maybe the fact that the world was hanging in the balance should have taken precedence, but still, he was just being human.

[Taleroth]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Let me reuse the example from before :

"Imagine the whole family of your wife (or husband) was slaughtered, and you came and interceded to the jury so the guy isn't sent to prison but is sent to make some social work in the same place than your spouse, and (s)he now has to cooperate with him...

Good luck trying to make a persuade check on your better half to convince her (s)he's just a "whiny douchebag hell-bent on vengeance". Something tells me YOU would be the one everyone think as a bastard." .

Do you really have to get some "foreshadowing" to immediately imagine what would be the reaction of your spouse ?
Would you consider her "willing to abandon you" ?

Letting Loghain live is a COLOSSAL BETRAYAL on your part, and you wonder why he wouldn't stick with you ? Well, I would be surpised that he would.

This isn't washing dishes or doing tax accounting behind a desk.  This is a paramilitary force dedicated to destroying a far greater enemy.  This isn't about his personal desires.  This is about saving all of Ferelden.  This is about abandoning the very thing his treasured family stood for.

Duncan would have **** slapped Alistair, himself.

So, if I got married to a woman who grew up in a family dedicated to taking down the mob.  And then a hitman killed her family.  And then, after gathering up everything we could to finally take down the mob and the hitman, she ****ing bolts and acts as if the mob can continue murdering other people's family simply because nobody killed the hitman on the spot...

Yeah, she's ****ing stupid.

Nobody asked him to forgive Loghain.  Or pardon Loghain.  Or befriend Loghain.  Just that Loghain be made use of.  Kill him later for all anyone but Anora cared.  String him up by his entrails AFTER the Blight had been defeated.

But no, his entrails must be strung up NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.  Or else he spits on his family's grave all by himself, betraying what they stood for.  Sacrifice to defeat the Blight.

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:57 .

[Kenshen]

I guess I had a different take on this and even now I still don't understand how Alistair can not put what is best for the country over his personal revenege. In my mind the only way you can spare the land from a civil war is to spare Loghain and then let him redeem himself by doing the killing blow, the people love there hero's especially dead ones. One of the things Wynne told me was that the Grey Wardens are the protectors of the land and its people and that they will go to any length to see that happen. This is the oath Alistair took and if he really meant it then being able to put his personal feelings shouldn't have been that hard. I lost so much respect for him I don't even bother using him now on my other playthroughs.

[mysticforce42]

If you played the Human Noble origin... what would you do if Alistair decided to make Arl Howe a Grey Warden instead of killing him?  I'd have stabbed him.  IN TEH FACE.  After that I'd have quit the Grey Wardens, as I am unwilling to be part of any organization that is willing to accept Howe.

The only difference is I'd have gone on to fight the Arch Demon, because there is really no escaping the final fate of a Grey Warden... which should put Alistair's ending blurb into question, considering all Grey Wardens are called by the Taint to eventually walk the Deep Roads - just by throwing away the badge won't cleanse the taint.

Still, it is possible to harden Alistair (choose "Everyone's out for themselves") during the Goldanna sidequest which allows him to remain King (he still leaves the party though) if you spare Logain.  Alistair ends up as a far better king too~

[tmp7704]

Taleroth wrote...

This isn't washing dishes or doing tax accounting behind a desk.  This is a paramilitary force dedicated to destroying a far greater enemy.  This isn't about his personal desires.  THIS IS ABOUT SAVING ALL OF FERELDEN.  This is about abandoning the very thing his treasured family stood for.

Duncan would have **** slapped Alistair, himself.

The same Duncan who didn't have much qualms about killing a would-be Warden in cold blood, even though that guy would be still valuable military asset as regular soldier, if left alive?

Let's get some reality check -- Loghain isn't some kind of magical archdemon kryptonite that's absolutely necessary to win the war. He can be executed for his crimes very much like a number of other characters in the game your character killed without blinking an eye instead of trying to recruit them. Frequently for nothing but personal reasons. And much like these other characters Loghain well deserves such fate.

I think a lot of his "Oh but teh whole country is at stake, how dares he!" talk is more about people getting their ego bruised when an NPC they came to consider pretty spineless and willing to jump as high as told... actually 'dares' to disobey out of their principles and for once cannot be brought to heel.

Modifié par tmp7704, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:02 .

[red8x]

I don't think it's so much Alistair's reaction - i.e. his seething hatred for Loghain and his desire to see him dead - rather his departure that has people up in arms. A  plausible scenario could have been his approval dropping down to 0, refusing to be in the same 4 member party but still present somehow in the battle against the Blight.

Plus isn't mercy a kingly virtue?  Alistair became upset at the thought of accepting Loghain's surrender.  There wasn't even an option to put Loghain to the rack. 

Another thing that I wasn't too clear on was that I thought that the whole duel between Loghain and Alistair (or his Champion) was to settle Alistair's claim to Kingship.  So, when Team Alistair wins isn't Alistair technically king?  Why the hell is he looking to my character for a decision?  If he wanted Loghain dead so badly he had a sword, he knew how to use it and he had kingship.

I never saw coming was that it was to be his way or no way and from the looks of it there are plenty of others who feel the same way which points to lack of foreshadowing

Mr. I'm all self-effacing charm, I'm not King material, please don't make fun of my manly feelings suddenly took a stand on blood-lust.  Why did the story become about him in the end?  At the Landsmeet there is no way of progressing unless you back Alistair and defeat Loghain in a duel to settle Alistair's claim to kingship, a claim that your PC may or may not have espoused.  A game that is about choices leaves you with no choices at all. 

The whole thing is even more irrational in the context that in becoming a Grey Warden a person needs to leave their former life behind, so Alistair should have never even been a candidate. Makes you wonder if the whole idea to make Alistair a Grey Warden was some sort of political ploy from someone who never wanted him to have a claim.  Anyway, I digress...

Modifié par red8x, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:05 .

[Taleroth]

mysticforce42 wrote...

If you played the Human Noble origin... what would you do if Alistair decided to make Arl Howe a Grey Warden instead of killing him?  I'd have stabbed him.  IN TEH FACE.  After that I'd have quit the Grey Wardens, as I am unwilling to be part of any organization that is willing to accept Howe.

If we're talking about stabbing jackasses, why not stab Duncan too for what he did to poor Jory?  I would have at least gloated over Duncan's death for that.  My first play actually wanted to.

That is the family he mourns so badly.  One that would have killed him, too.  And you if you tried to quit.

If we're going to get all holier than thou and decide that there are things we shouldn't do to stop the Blight, we can look early.

[mysticforce42]

Taleroth wrote...

mysticforce42 wrote...

If you played the Human Noble origin... what would you do if Alistair decided to make Arl Howe a Grey Warden instead of killing him?  I'd have stabbed him.  IN TEH FACE.  After that I'd have quit the Grey Wardens, as I am unwilling to be part of any organization that is willing to accept Howe.

If we're talking about stabbing jackasses, why not stab Duncan too for what he did to poor Jory?  I would have at least gloated over Duncan's death for that.  My first play actually wanted to.

That is the family he mourns so badly.  One that would have killed him, too.  And you if you tried to quit.

If we're going to get all holier than thou and decide that there are things we shouldn't do to stop the Blight, we can look early.

Jory was killed for being a coward - he accepted his obligation to join the Grey Wardens but balked at his oath-bound duty to complete the ritual.  Duncan might not have acted in self defense, but he is fully justified by the code of the Grey Wardens - and in the medevial martial setting of DA:O,  Jory's family is better off that he is dead rather than him being known as a coward and deserter.

Of course, quitting the Grey Wardens would have set the entire organization on my character - that I accept, especially if I actually managed to stab Alistair, IN TEH FACE, as it were.  Unlike Jory, or Jory apologizers, I would not blame the Grey Wardens for coming after me.  Also Unlike Jory, I'd have gone after the Arch Demon myself, and thus would not have lived for the Grey Warden's to judge me regardless of the battle's outcome (either death by digestion or death by glowing lights).

[Nial Black-Knee]

Lets be clear about one thing. Loghain is responsible for the death of his king and the usurpation of the throne. In any Monarchy that has EVER existed through out time, Doing either one of these actions is a death sentence if you are caught. Period. No exceptions, no mercy, no fluffy, lets make good for the sake of the nation BS. DEAD right there.

[tmp7704]

mysticforce42 wrote...

Jory was killed for being a coward - he accepted his obligation to join the Grey Wardens but balked at his oath-bound duty to complete the ritual.  Duncan might not have acted in self defense, but he is fully justified by the code of the Grey Wardens - and in the medevial martial setting of DA:O,  Jory's family is better off that he is dead rather than him being known as a coward and deserter.

Of course Jory's family might have quite a different opinion on this subject, but it's not like anyone bothered to ask them about it...

The point with Jory is however entirely different. He is killed when he refuses to drink what he knows to be a poison... killed even though he so far proved himself to be a decent warrior against the darkspawn, and would without doubt be of some use in the battle which was about to happen in just few hours, as regular soldier.

The point is, the Grey Wardens (PC included) throughout the game make plenty irrational decisions, ones often based on personal whims and completely ignoring the "zomg archdemon on the loose" threat out there. But suddenly when it comes to Loghain deal the one guy who decides to be irrational and personal about it gets berated as if it was something unordinary and unlike anything the others have done. Heck, why does that deserve more flak than say, a crazy girl who'd get herself killed over a trashbin full of ashes instead of rationally seeing the big picture and remembering how she'd decided fighting the darkspawn was the point of her existence?

[Akka le Vil]

red8x wrote...

I don't think it's so much Alistair's reaction - i.e. his seething hatred for Loghain and his desire to see him dead - rather his departure that has people up in arms.

In other words, people are up in arms because Alistair isn't a nice dog obeying every order - and they call him "spineless" because of that...
Calling someone spineless because he actually had a spine

A  plausible scenario could have been his approval dropping down to 0, refusing to be in the same 4 member party but still present somehow in the battle against the Blight.

It could have been nice to see him as a NPC in the final battle (just like Irving and the others), yep.
On the other hand, it's also understandable that your betrayal simply shattered his faith in the Grey Wardens as a whole and destroyed his purpose in life - hence the drunkard's ending.

Another thing that I wasn't too clear on was that I thought that the whole duel between Loghain and Alistair (or his Champion) was to settle Alistair's claim to Kingship.  So, when Team Alistair wins isn't Alistair technically king?  Why the hell is he looking to my character for a decision?  If he wanted Loghain dead so badly he had a sword, he knew how to use it and he had kingship.

That's part of the weird feeling of the Landsmeet - a single Grey Warden that suddendly turn all the tables and decide several elements of the future of the country with perhaps four sentences. A bit too hasty for my taste, and a bit "too much".

[red8x]

Akka le Vil wrote...

red8x wrote...

I don't think it's so much Alistair's reaction - i.e. his seething hatred for Loghain and his desire to see him dead - rather his departure that has people up in arms.

In other words, people are up in arms because Alistair isn't a nice dog obeying every order - and they call him "spineless" because of that...
Calling someone spineless because he actually had a spine

For the record, I  never called him spineless.  Courage he had plenty of that.  Was he vengeful and dishonorable in leaving the field of battle?  Yes.

[KariTR]

From my character's standpoint, Alastair did exactly the right thing in killing Loghain (I love that nod between them just before he does). Loghain was to Alastair as Howe was to her, had she intervened for mercy's sake it would have been the deepest betrayal.

As an aside, I am surprised so many think Alastair to be wishy-washy, have you never heard the phrase "actions speak louder than words?" You have to look a bit deeper than Alastair's surface bluff and bluster to see the real man. For me that made him one of the more interesting and believable characters in the story - he was the only one besides our own character that had difficult choices, little wonder he balked at them sometimes and made light of them at others. Alastair doubted himself, not the path he had to take. I never saw him as weak or manipulated, just in need of someone to believe in him.

Modifié par KariTR, 25 novembre 2009 - 12:25 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I can understand his disgust and disillusionment if you spare Loghain. But Alistair abandons his duty before the crucial battle against the Darkspawn. Duncan would have wanted him to put aside personal issues to end the Blight. If Loghain does not survive the ritual then there is only two Grey Wardens



I think it was a rash emotional decision that he will regret and will haunt him. Especially if the main character dies ending the Blight or Loghain dies a hero. Alistair would have wanted to be there and see it through to the end maybe even making the final blow.

[SidNitzerglobin]

TeenZombie wrote...

It really, really irks me that Alistair running off in a huff is even a choice.  Personally, I would never choose Loghain over Alistair (I'll watch that ending on YouTube, but I'd never make that choice ingame), but the idea that he would rather run away and forsake his duty than deal with not getting immediate revenge seems so *not* what Alistair has been about the entire game.  If he had been harping on revenge against Loghain the whole time, and talking about how much he hated the guy, maybe I could understand, but being a Grey Warden, ending the Blight, and helping people was what was most important to him up to that point. 

If Alistair had left your party, for instance, once you chose to let Loghain live, and shown up in the final battle the way Irving or Eamon does, I would understand.  But the Alistair who runs away seems like a completely different person from the one who gladly would strike the final blow against the archdemon, and considers it a privilege and an honor.

I so agree with this.

I've been surprised at how much I've wound up really liking Alistair as a character and just don't see him playing the whiny baby and stomping off in a huff, leaving the only other Grey Wardens in Ferelden to face the blight alone based on his own selfish need for vengance, whether it be justified or not.

After Anora playing kidnap victim to Cauthrien after I rescued her from Howe and a general vibe of power-hunger I got from her in subsequent conversations, I didn't trust Anora any further than I could throw her.  I saw Anora dealing with drama and politics of the nobles and the day to day business of ruling the kingdom and Alistair playing commander in chief and hopefully keeping her avarice in check and as the best choice, so I played matchmaker as soon as I got to Eamon's estate in Denerim.  I wound up having to play through the Landsmeet 4 times until I finally managed to figure out that I had to kill Loghain myself to have the plan play out as expected.