104 réponses à ce sujet

[JHorwath]

I got the landsmeet to side with me then Allistair killed Loghain. I liked the way thing worked out.

[MFCell]

All you Loghain killers are crazy... Alistair never had a decent claim to the throne, he was a follower and a whiner, and a deserter when his colors are shown. Loghain, on the other hand is trying to get things done on his own, just doing very, very, very badly at it. At least he doesnt need the PC make every decision for him. He might make bad decisions, but he makes decisions.

Alistair only ever steps up at the Landsmeet, and when he finally does, it to the detriment of almost everyone involved. That guy is a big old wannabe. Wannabe King(gotta hand-hold him into it), wannabe templar(he never really was one), wannabe hero(he only does it if you wont), wannabe lover(he dumps you even tho he loves you).

Modifié par MFCell, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[Naltair]

MFCell wrote...

All you Loghain killers are crazy... Alistair never had a decent claim to the throne, he was a follower and a whiner, and a deserter when his colors are shown. Loghain, on the other hand is trying to get things done on his own, just doing very, very, very badly at it. At least he doesnt need the PC make every decision for him. He might make bad decisions, but he makes decisions.

Alistair only ever steps up at the Landsmeet, and when he finally does, it to the detriment of almost everyone involved. That guy is a big old wannabe. Wannabe King(gotta hand-hold him into it), wannabe templar(he never really was one), wannabe hero(he only does it if you wont), wannabe lover(he dumps you even tho he loves you).

Heh yeah I already see my human noble rogue taking Loghain over Alistair, because he wants to be King and he can't respect a man that can't stand up for himself.

[Stargazer86]

What irritates me is that you're basically forced to choose between Alistair and Loghain. Whoever says you need to execute Loghain right there on the spot? Inducting him into the Wardens isn't even a necessity! 

You're about to face the Arch Demon. The fate of Fereldon is up in the air, and you need every person you can get on your side at this point. Heck, you're allowed to keep Zevran, who is an admitted assassin and personally tries to kill you.. It's perfectly reasonable to have Loghain fight in the upcoming battle since he -is- a very experienced soldier who -does- care about his country (Though, it somewhat of a psychopathic way, admittedly)...but he doesn't need to do it as a Warden. Have him fight until you kill the Arch Demon, lock him up afterwards, then bring him to trial for the crimes he committed. Summary execution just seems like a needless plot point in order for you to choose between Alistair and Loghain.

It's a SUBSTANTIAL double-standard when you compare it with the Dwarf Noble origin. Behlen set you up for the murder of your older brother, attempts to usurp the throne, and basically has you sentenced to death. Yet you have to go through the entire stupid questline before you get a very unsubstantial revenge (That isn't even specific to the origin, since all other races/classes can do it), AND you don't even get to become king afterwards.

Alistair, on the other hand, has his mentor killed, father figure merely poisoned (Cailin is hardly worth a mention, since Alistair even admits they never talked nor kept in touch), and suddenly HE is able to take swift revenge on the man that did it? AND he is able to take his rightful heritage? (Which he didn't even want until it looked like Loghain would be spared)

What. A. Crock.

[ComTrav]

I feel like it's unfair to criticize Alistair for always following the PC's lead...EVERY character in the game does that. You end up installing rulers in Ferelden and Orzammer, and indirectly deciding who will run the Circle or the Dalish elves. For 99 percent of the game you can completely reshape the world to your whim, especially if you have high coercion. (The gift system even adds to this. So you Zevran was appaled I slaughtered all those city elves in the blood magic ritual? Look, I found the gloves that remind you of your mother!) It's nice to get a little pushback and have a character take a stand on principle.



It's also a little unfair IMO to make a blanket statement about him, because he responds differently depending on your different choices in the story. You also see different sides to it. If you spare Loghain he comes off petulant and makes an impulsive decision his later behavior clearly suggests he regrets. On the other hand the This-man-is-a-dwarf speech before the final battle felt a lot better coming from him then Anora.

[SeanMurphy2]

One thing that bothered me was that he acted like that publically in front of the whole Landsmeet. A King needs the respect and support of the nobles. He should have his emotional breakdowns and tantrums in private.



I think in one scenario Alistair agrees to be King just so he can kill Loghain. That attitude would create doubts whether he could be a good King. And if he was any better than Loghain.

[Meldread]

I don't think it's wrong for Alistair to make a stand when the PC wants to spare Loghain. It's very in character for him to do that, considering what Loghain did...



I think it could have been done better, though. If Alister had mentioned Loghain more (and his desire to see him dead) before the Landsmeet, then I think it would have been more acceptable. Hell, I think it would be better if when the PC tries to spare Loghain, that Alister disagrees.... and if the PC tries to keep Loghain Alister draws his weapon and takes Loghain's head off right there. It would have been a better response than running off as he does when you let Loghain live.



Alister: I -will NOT- let that man live, not after what he has done! {Alister draws his blade and kills Loghain; the crowd gasps in horror.}



That would have been an appropriate response I think, followed by a -50 drop in approval.

[Akka le Vil]

MFCell wrote...

All you Loghain killers are crazy... Alistair never had a decent claim to the throne, he was a follower and a whiner, and a deserter when his colors are shown. Loghain, on the other hand is trying to get things done on his own, just doing very, very, very badly at it. At least he doesnt need the PC make every decision for him. He might make bad decisions, but he makes decisions.

Alistair only ever steps up at the Landsmeet, and when he finally does, it to the detriment of almost everyone involved. That guy is a big old wannabe. Wannabe King(gotta hand-hold him into it), wannabe templar(he never really was one), wannabe hero(he only does it if you wont), wannabe lover(he dumps you even tho he loves you).

Well, if you make excuse for what Loghain did and blame the character who has actually moral value, no wonder he leave, you clearly deserve it.

I have this feeling that people confuse "morality" with "what my character selfishly decide regardless of any notion of justice", and began to cry when other characters start to have mind of their own.
YOU are the backstabbing crybabies, not him
He simply follows what he knows is right.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[Rikia35]

Done the landsmeet twice, seen both versions of executing and not executing Loghain. As much as I see the hatred on both sides, I thought they were perfectly reasonable human reactions. But yes I would have loved some more options in the landsmeet.

For Alistair, wanting to kill Loghain is perfectly understandable and he is realy emotional when PC decides to spare him. What really made Alistair snap was to make Loghain a Gray Warden. I would blame Riordan (sp?) for this. Basicaly sparing Loghain and let the Landsmeet nobles decide his fate was more reasonable. And I would believe Alistair would not have been so emotional about this. Its basically 2 things got him at the same time, sparing his most despising person and on top of that making him a Gray warden.

Sparing Loghain was something the Queen wished, for being her father and a very powerfull general of the army. She stated its for the Landsmeet to decide. Well after beating the duel all of a sudden all decisions are on your sholders.

Many dislikes Anora for some reason but I for one found perfectly normal of how she is. Given her position in the politics, you realy can't put emotions or sentimentals cloud your decision for the country. There was a conversation with Wynne about the difference of a good king and a tyrant. Think that fits well in here. Of course she does despise you or alistair if you execute your own father in public...


For the TLDR version:

I wanted an option like sparing Loghain but not making him Gray warden, despite the possibility of death in the ritual. And keep Alistair on your side. Some sort of Trial after everything ended maybe.

[velmyn]

Yes...I was disappointed that I wasn't given the option to execute Anora as well.

To those who think Alistair is a cry-baby...say you're playing the human noble origin, and you defeat Arl Howe. Suddenly Riordan shows up and alongside Alistair the two say that not only should he be forgiven, he should also be made a Grey Warden to fight alongside you and die a hero.

Can you honestly say that if something like this happened to you in real life, your response would be 'hey you know what, since I'm a good chap and all I'll let the fact that you murdered my entire family pass...glad to have you on board?'

Modifié par velmyn, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:36 .

[Taerda]

velmyn wrote...

Yes...I was disappointed that I wasn't given the option to execute Anora as well.

To those who think Alistair is a cry-baby...say you're playing the human noble origin, and you defeat Arl Howe. Suddenly Riordan shows up and alongside Alistair the two say that not only should he be forgiven, he should also be made a Grey Warden to fight alongside you and die a hero.

Can you honestly say that if something like this happened to you in real life, your response would be 'hey you know what, since I'm a good chap and all I'll let the fact that you murdered my entire family pass...glad to have you on board?'

Heh. I would have been like: ok ... then at the joining ceremony, I'd have had him drink the blood of his family and retainers until he drowned in that blood :happy:

[interesting03]

Harden Alistair's personality and convince him to marrry Anora. He stops whining and becomes king, without going complete nuts(he does rage, slightly) over loghain. Though he does give you the pissed off cold shoulder for the remainder of the game. Hell, even at the coronation he acts like a ****** towards you.

Modifié par interesting03, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:49 .

[Taerda]

interesting03 wrote...

Harden Alistair up and convince him to marrry Anora. He stops whining and becomes king, without going complete nuts(he does rage, slightly) over loghain. Though he does give you the pissed off cold shoulder for the remainder of the game. Hell, even at the coronation he acts like a ****** towards you.

He treated my mage just fine, but he was at 95Adore in relations with me, so it might be different if lower.

[interesting03]

Taerda wrote...

He treated my mage just fine, but he was at 95Adore in relations with me, so it might be different if lower.

It's probably the gender difference, or it could be that i spared Loghain by doing the deed with Morrigan.

[hexaligned]

 I get to look forward to killing Alistair in every play through now, so no, I like it just fine.

[Craig Graff]

Major results of the landsmeet:

Anora is queen, Loghain lives, Alistair dies
Anora is queen, Loghain lives, Alistair lives
Anora is queen, Loghain dies
Anoria marries Human Noble, Loghain lives, Alistair lives
Anoria marries Human Noble, Loghain lives, Alistair dies
Anora marries Human Noble, Loghain killed by Alistair
Alistair is King, Loghain dies, Alistair romance either ends or continues
Alistair marries Human Noble, Loghain dies
Changed Alistair marries Anora, Loghain lives, Alistair romance ends
Alistair marries Anora, Loghain dies, Alistair romance either ends or continues

Yeah - what were we thinking in not including more complexity? Especially options that would have gone against the character of those involved.

Modifié par Craig Graff, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:21 .

[mysticforce42]

Craig Graff wrote...

Major results of the landsmeet:

Anora is queen, Loghain lives, Alistair dies
Anora is queen, Loghain lives, Alistair lives
Anora is queen, Loghain dies
Anoria marries Human Noble, Loghain lives, Alistair lives
Anoria marries Human Noble, Loghain lives, Alistair dies
Anora marries Human Noble, Loghain killed by Alistair
Alistair is King, Loghain dies, Alistair romance either ends or continues
Alistair marries Human Noble, Loghain dies
Changed Alistair marries Anora, Loghain lives, Alistair romance ends
Alistair marries Anora, Loghain dies, Alistair romance either ends or continues

Yeah - what were we thinking in not including more complexity? Especially options that would have gone against the character of those involved.

Well, OBVIOUSLY you guys should have included Dog as King, Anora dies, Loghain becomes Kitty 2.0, and Alistair becomes a Bloodmage.

[Lucasian]

The only issue I have with the Landsmeet is that it's something you work towards to the entire game yet it's doesn't feel as climatic as it should be. I think it's because it's mostly decided before you go there anyway, since it's so much based on the choices you've made so far. You can skip the entire thing and just come back when Loghain seems to be dueling you (and then you have 1.7 seconds to chug a potion btw, lol).

Only then you get to chose the real outcome of the Landsmeet but it doesn't feel genuine that way. At least not to me.
It's a massive reset button and it's just unfortunate that the Landsmeet is concluded like that.

Anyway, this is just something that occurred to me while playing; it's not really criticism.

Modifié par Lucasian, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:35 .

[tmp7704]

Craig Graff wrote...

Yeah - what were we thinking in not including more complexity? Especially options that would have gone against the character of those involved.

Actually if i can ask... what were you thinking making the Landsmeet such railroaded experience?

I mean it seriously, the way you're forced into the brawl no matter what, and then the duel over Alistair's claim to the throne even though it's possible to arrange with Anora beforehand you'll be supporting her rather than Alistair, much to Alistair's relief... was it felt that player *must* experience these parts because they're just too good to make them optional, or something?

[Never]

ComTrav wrote...

I feel like it's unfair to criticize Alistair for always following the PC's lead...EVERY character in the game does that. You end up installing rulers in Ferelden and Orzammer, and indirectly deciding who will run the Circle or the Dalish elves. For 99 percent of the game you can completely reshape the world to your whim, especially if you have high coercion. (The gift system even adds to this. So you Zevran was appaled I slaughtered all those city elves in the blood magic ritual? Look, I found the gloves that remind you of your mother!) It's nice to get a little pushback and have a character take a stand on principle.

It's also a little unfair IMO to make a blanket statement about him, because he responds differently depending on your different choices in the story. You also see different sides to it. If you spare Loghain he comes off petulant and makes an impulsive decision his later behavior clearly suggests he regrets. On the other hand the This-man-is-a-dwarf speech before the final battle felt a lot better coming from him then Anora.

I completely agree.  What else can a character in your party do but complain when you do something they don't like?  I'm pretty sure Loghain follows your every command when he's in the party too

I enjoyed killing Loghain, but I played as a human noble and was also romancing Alistair, so the decision was pretty natural.  Of course, when we find out later it could have saved some drama...  But that's what makes it so much more fun. 

[lost lupus]

THREAD RES! thanks wynne

how the hell can you get anora to marry alistar and spare logain?

Modifié par lost lupus, 15 février 2011 - 03:22 .

[ejoslin]

Of course it can be done. Here's how:



Harden him

Arrange for him to marry Anora ahead of time

At the landsmeet, spare Loghain then remind Alistair that he's engaged. Anora will take it from there.



Alistair still will leave the party, but he'll be married and hanging out in Denerim somewhere (apparently safe) while the final onslaught is going on.

[lost lupus]

i hardened him at least i think i did
when he meets his sister tell him shes only after money then tell him everyones out for themsleves

yet when i mentionthe pact with him marrying anora he refuses outright and says the deal is off (then anora goes nuts)

is the a relationship level involved? or did screw up the harden?

Modifié par lost lupus, 15 février 2011 - 03:38 .

[ejoslin]

lost lupus wrote...

i hardened him at least i think i did
when he meets his sister tell him shes only after money then tell him everyones out for themsleves

yet when i mentionthe pact with him marrying anora he refuses outright and says the deal is off (then anora goes nuts)

is the a relationship level involved? or did screw up the harden?

Anora shouldn't have gone nuts.  She only objects really if someone killed her father as she won't marry her father's murderer.  She snaps that whip though, and tells Alistair to pull himself together.

Were they already engaged, though?  They do have to be engaged before the landsmeet i believe.

Edit: I just double checked -- they do not have to be engaged.  However, if they are not engaged, not only does Alistair have to be hardened, the warden needs to have 2 points in coercion as well.  If they are engaged, you don't need the points in coercion.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2011 - 04:01 .

[lost lupus]

yes i had it all sorted

alistar the alistar threw a hissy fit

and anora then said she wont marry him i didnt kill logain as it ended up alistar storming out to become a drunk and logain joining my crew