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[Ahglock]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Not really.  To get squad warp ammo, and keep the fastest pull in the west going, you can't max pull.  The recharge speed if what sells her pull power, though Samara can match her there.  Jacob may have a slower pull but at least he can get squad inferno ammo and that is damn useful due to its cc effects. 

Who said anything about squad warp ammo hm?

It barely will save a bullet when its maxed, if it is not maxed it wont even do that little bit.

[AntiChri5]

It is twice as potent when used on a Pulled target, meaning someone with Pull and Warp Ammo is a better Pullbot then someone with the same cooldown but just Pull.

The only power that works better with Pull is Warp, and only Shepard gets that combo.

[Nooneyouknow13]

AntiChri5 wrote...

It is twice as potent when used on a Pulled target, meaning someone with Pull and Warp Ammo is a better Pullbot then someone with the same cooldown but just Pull.
The only power that works better with Pull is Warp, and only Shepard gets that combo.

Normal damage is already doubled against a ragdolled target though.  That's why it isn't a very big deal.

[Schneidend]

Base Damage w/ Ragdoll Multiplier: 100 x 2 = 200

Base Damage w/ Squad Warp: 100 x 1.35 = 135

Base Damage w/ Squad Warp vs. Pulled Enemy before Ragdoll Multiplier: 100 x 1.70 = 170

If the Ragdoll Multiplier affects ammo powers like the close-range multiplier does, then you get:

(100 x 1.70) x 2 = 340

340 > 200

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 février 2011 - 07:35 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

Which either shaves at best 1 shot off the damage needed to finish the target, or simply results in more overkill. Also, that formula fails to take into account the fact that Ammo Powers work off the base weapon damage, not the weapon damage after upgrades.



Example: the Carnifex's base damage is 85.4. Squad Warp would add 29.89 damage per shot to health. With full upgrades, the Carnifex does 136.64 damage per shot, 273.28 vs a rag dolled enemy. Power damage is not normally doubled against a rag dolled target. So the total damage against said target is 273.28+59.78, or 333.06. The damage against a target on health but not rag dolled would be 136.64+29.89, or 166.53 - exactly half the damage against a rag dolled target. Squad Incendiary Ammo would give us 273.28+34.16 or 307.44 damage against a rag dolled target, which is only 25.62 damage less.



If I recall correctly, level 30 Blue Sons Mercs have around 300 shields and 300 HP, Collectors have less health than that. Both ammo types result in a one shot kill against a rag dolled target more often than not, and if you need a second shot, the damage difference still didn't matter. That is why i think Warp Ammo is highly overrated, especially when Incendiary offers a CC component as well.

[Schneidend]

It's an ammo power. It doesn't cost a cooldown mid-battle to activate it at the start of a mission. If you're a Sentinel, Engineer, Adept, and you're not taking Grunt or Jacob with you, then Warp Ammo can only help you.



You lose nothing and gain everything by using it if that's your only option.

[BurnedToast]

Carnifex is probably the worst weapon in the game to use as an example though, since it's one big bullet - yeah of course there is going to be some overkill there. Sniper and Shotguns (if you assume every pellet hits) are the same way

Compare an assault rifle or SMG instead, or even the other pistol and maybe it paints a different picture.

Also remember incendiary ammo is a DoT (vs health)... which won't do full damage because the target will be dead long before that.

You're right though, ragdolled targets might as well already be dead and it does not really matter in the end what you use since they die so fast from everything.

Modifié par BurnedToast, 03 février 2011 - 08:58 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Schneidend wrote...

Base Damage w/ Ragdoll Multiplier: 100 x 2 = 200

Base Damage w/ Squad Warp: 100 x 1.35 = 135

Base Damage w/ Squad Warp vs. Pulled Enemy before Ragdoll Multiplier: 100 x 1.70 = 170

If the Ragdoll Multiplier affects ammo powers like the close-range multiplier does, then you get:

(100 x 1.70) x 2 = 340

340 > 200

Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. However, ammo powers do get a distance multiplier.

Example: Mattock (50 base damage) using Squad Warp Ammo (+35% damage) >

50 * 0.35 = 17.5 extra damage against armor/barrier/health; Warp Ammo's effect is doubled against ragdolled enemies > 50 * 0.7 = 35

So far, so good, but now we add weapon upgrades; 7/7 Assault Riffle Upgrades and Penetration Upgrade >

Mattock receives a default 1.3x vs armor, and 1.2x vs shields and barriers; thus damage:
against health: 50 * 1.7 = 85 total damage: 85 + 17.5 = 103 (+20%)
against armor: (50 * 1.7) * 1.3 * 1.25 = 138  total damage: 138 + 17.5 = 156 (+12%)
against shields and barrriers: (50 * 1.7) * 1.2 * 1.25 = 128 total damage: 128 + 17.5 = 146 (+14% vs barrier only)
against ragdolled enemies: (50 * 1.7) * 2 = 170 total damage: 170 + 35 = 205 (+21%)

This example didn't include weapon damage bonus available through gear and Miranda's passive, they would further reduce Warp Ammo's extra damage percentage. Point blank range doesn't change the percentages - both weapon and ammo damage is multiplied by two.

Although extra damage is always welcome, there are very few encounters where it will make a difference. Using HP, AR, SR or SG requires the same number of shots to kill normal enemies with and without ammo powers.

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

If I recall correctly, level 30 Blue Sons Mercs have around 300 shields and 300 HP, Collectors have less health than that.

All normal enemies have ~450 defenses and ~450 health @ level 30 Insanity (Mercs, Vorcha, LOKI's, Geth Troopers, Collector Drones, Husks etc)

thisisme8 wrote...

Learning to stagger is what makes a regular team into a fast-paced, aggressive team. With that in mind, aside from Vanguard or Adept Shepard, Jack has the most reliable and powerful stagger available, making her useful on all difficulties. Add a squadmate that can rapidly strip defenses and you have a juggernaut of a team.

Indeed. Shepard's Shockwave is pretty bad, but Jack's is pretty good. I prefer to max her Shockwave, Pull and passive. Her Shockwave can stagger multiple enemies allowing you to move around easier. Add an other squadmate, Singularity / Pull Field, the Arc Projector and the like, and you'll be amazed what Shockwave can do.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 03 février 2011 - 07:57 .

[thisisme8]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Indeed. Shepard's Shockwave is pretty bad, but Jack's is pretty good. I prefer to max her Shockwave, Pull and passive. Her Shockwave can stagger multiple enemies allowing you to move around easier. Add an other squadmate, Singularity / Pull Field, the Arc Projector and the like, and you'll be amazed what Shockwave can do.

Not to mention it pulls enemies out of cover.  To be honest, staggering is almost central to my style of play on Insanity, regardless of class.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

does anyone else think that if Jack had hair and a little less tatoo she would be pretty hot?

[PlayingWithKnives]

no she's hot enough as she is ultimate bad girl, and if you follow her as a love interest paragon style you end up seeing her in a different light

[Siansonea]

I think Improved Shockwave is underrated. Jack's got a solid suite of abilities. I find Tali's selection of abilities to be much less useful in most situations. Biotics in general are more useful in most situations, but I will say that I usually take Samara and Thane to most fights with organic enemies. Their powers are great for popping popcorn like husks and LOKI mechs. I always evolve Throw to Throw Field for both of them, and Heavy Reave for Samara and Heavy Warp for Thane, so they'll have a 'massive damage' ability for boss fights. Jack's weakness is that even though she's great for crowd control, she's not as good at taking down bosses. Of course, ideally you would have a heavy hitter in your other squad position for that purpose, like Thane.

[thisisme8]

Siansonea II wrote...

I think Improved Shockwave is underrated. Jack's got a solid suite of abilities. I find Tali's selection of abilities to be much less useful in most situations. Biotics in general are more useful in most situations, but I will say that I usually take Samara and Thane to most fights with organic enemies. Their powers are great for popping popcorn like husks and LOKI mechs. I always evolve Throw to Throw Field for both of them, and Heavy Reave for Samara and Heavy Warp for Thane, so they'll have a 'massive damage' ability for boss fights. Jack's weakness is that even though she's great for crowd control, she's not as good at taking down bosses. Of course, ideally you would have a heavy hitter in your other squad position for that purpose, like Thane.

Jack is indeed the most underrated squaddie in the game, and probably my favorite along with Mordin.

[AstralStorm]

Having played more than half of the game with Jack and an adept Shep I can only say: meh.

The trick is that as an adept you don't really need a pullbot. Of course you could max pull field and use throw field yourself "for massive damage". Still, Morinth is a better CC character (Dominate) and Samara a better damage dealer (Reave), also both have very useful assault rifles.

[Roxlimn]

AstralStorm:



You don't need a Pullbot as an Adept, but having a Pullbot means that you can throw more Warp Bombs. Amazingly enough, you don't always want to trigger an Explosion on a Pull - particularly if it's just one target. If it's just one target, you can usually kill a Pulled mook with just Heavy Throw. It doesn't matter much where you aim it - it usually does enough damage as long as it connects.



This frees Shepard to Pull or Warp faster than the squaddie can cool down. This is where someone like Samara or Miranda come in. Shepard can Pull for their Warp, and then still cooldown fast enough to Warp when Jack's Pull comes back online.