44 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I don't think I've been shy about stating that both of the Makeovers are not going to be fully compatible with Kaedrin's PrC pack. He changes the same scripts that I do. His versions will override mine and interfere with Makeover functions. The directions state that you should remove all overrides when using the Makeovers.

[Shallina]

Dying NPC are revived when a conversation is triggered (with trigger or script). To avoid this you need to change ginc_trigger, ginc_cutscene, and compile gtr_speak_node with the new one and the script that use ginc_cutscene function that revive the dead/dying.

Modifié par Shallina, 06 février 2011 - 07:31 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Shallina,



Thanks for the info. Occasional resurrection by the gods is a known issue documented in the read me.



Regards

[Shallina]

It s not a resurection by the god it's a resurection by a remove all effect function in the ginc_cutscene script. Ginc_trigger is also involved.

It's a bug, not a god will. And bugs have to be squashed.

playing the NWN2 OC a little, while waiting more area to script for BGR to see if there are idea I can fetch .

It's better than the orignal but here the remark :

1) resu bug, annoying, not dramatic but annoying.
2) I would have done the rest limitation differently. No rest outside Inn in town, and you need to pay for it, (except at old Dunkan home and in you castle) I wouldn't have done those 8 hours limitations (feel like a cheap trick IMO, I don't know why I would'nt take a day when I can).
3) you haven't adressed the problem of the main character switching in front for convo.

For the rest what I would have done :
Random monster on exteriors that disturb you often, and same as you did :no rest inside ennemy territory.

And no rest for when it doesn't make sense (you are on ennmy territory or pressed by time).

I find it better than the original game, but beceause of few things like those I mentionned, I haven't got the impression to play something fully done.

(I am always harsh with my critics, if I don't critic something, it's beceause there is  to many thing to critic about it.)

If I was really evil I would allow to rest everywhere, but punish the player that dare to rest in a  dangerous area with a 100% rate spawn of a dangerous army against him that disrupt his rest.

Modifié par Shallina, 06 février 2011 - 11:04 .

[dunniteowl]

Little too literal there Shallina.

dno

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Shallina wrote...

It s not a resurection by the god it's a resurection by a remove all effect function in the ginc_cutscene script. Ginc_trigger is also involved.

Changes to include files that are used by multiple scripts in many places throughout the campaign are too risky to mess with.  The cost in time and testing isn't justified. Sorry you don't like it.  It is a minor annoyance that I do not plan to fix, which is why it is documented in the read me. My advice is try not to get your people killed and you won't notice it  at all

2) I would have done the rest limitation differently.

You and everyone else. Rest is something that everyone has their own ideas about. That is why there is a customizable 2da file that allows you to change its behavior. That is also why there is the Verge of Morpheus in the vault, and why you can rest whenever you want if you change to easy mode. The default settings are to my taste, but I spent extra effort providing several ways to change them to suit other preferences.

3) you haven't adressed the problem of the main character switching in front for convo.

I did where possible. Most NPC's can be spoken to by anyone in the party and the main PC will not switch. The conversation skills of the party member are used rather than the main PC. But the game is PC-centric (you are saving the world after all) so it isn't possible to do so 100% of the time. Also if you installed over an existing game then you will only see that in new modules because it is done in the creature spawn script. If you have something installed that overrides the standard spawn script then that explains why it isn't working for you.

Random monster on exteriors that disturb you often, and same as you did :no rest inside ennemy territory.

I have my own wandering monster system in King's Festival. I didn't implement it in the Makeovers because the existing systems are not well documented and I didn't want to risk breaking something that would be very difficult to address. I didn't have the luxury of working with well documented and consistent code. If these things were properly documented somewhere I would have done more.

And no rest for when it doesn't make sense (you are on ennmy territory or pressed by time).

I don't see how that is doable when I cannot make any modifications to areas. Some of the OC areas do not even have on area enter scripts that can be modified.  As it is the rest system is essentially one script. So if you don't like it you can just replace that one script if you have something you prefer.

I find it better than the original game, but beceause of few things like those I mentionned, I haven't got the impression to play something fully done.

My focus was on enabling additional functionality and allowing more player choice. I also spent a significant amount of time dealing with Shandra. The only bug you mention is one I documented. Everything else you mention is your personal preference. Those are certainly valid and will affect your enjoyment, but I don't think it fair to say something is incomplete because it doesn't implement features the way you wanted it to that were not in the scope. 

Regards

Modifié par Kaldor Silverwand, 07 février 2011 - 04:57 .

[manageri]

It wouldn't be a great idea to change the resurrection thing anyway, if a convo has a companion participating you might break the game (or a quest) if they're still dead.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Shallina wrote...
2) I would have done the rest limitation differently. No rest outside Inn in town, and you need to pay for it, (except at old Dunkan home and in you castle) I wouldn't have done those 8 hours limitations (feel like a cheap trick IMO, I don't know why I would'nt take a day when I can).

What I implemented is very close to what you are describing here. You can rest at a couple of different inns for pay any time you like. You are not restricted to the 8 hours for those. Duncan's isn't one of those inns though. The OC provided very few inns to choose from though.

You can remove the 8 hour limitation by editing the 2da file using any text editor. You can also remove them by playing in easy mode.  The reason for the rest restriction is to prevent resting after every battle. Which is truly a cheap trick.

Regards

[Kaldor Silverwand]

manageri wrote...

It wouldn't be a great idea to change the resurrection thing anyway, if a convo has a companion participating you might break the game (or a quest) if they're still dead.

That would be a concern, yes. There are a lot of cutscenes in the OC and there are already bugs associated with some of them. I wouldn't want to inadvertently add more with the Makeover.

They are also very difficult to test because they have so many variables that are used to determine what should be done. I don't implement modifications unless they can be reasonably tested.

I have no doubt that the code could be modified to resurrect the standard companions and not the other party members. What I doubt is that it could be properly tested.  So I consider it a minor nuisance not worth messing with. Most people try very hard to keep their party members alive.

Regards

[Shallina]

If there is no Inn when you need it, then make one

Resting after a tought battle isn't a cheap trick, it's what everyone have done  when it's possible since the beggining of living creature on earth.

Basically if you want to limit resting the solution used in the last area where ennemy have a strong chance to disturb you is a better solution. (make it a 100% chance for when you don't want any resting).

Also rest limitation like a 8 hours one means that you are forced to restrain battle, and can't make a really difficult battle that would force the player to use everything at his/her disposal.

Modifié par Shallina, 07 février 2011 - 04:28 .

[manageri]

Shallina wrote...

Resting after a tought battle isn't a cheap trick

Only if the mod is balanced that way. The OC and MotB were balanced by/for a 5 year old and propably don't require you to rest a single time to beat them.

Basically if you want to limit resting the solution used in the last area where ennemy have a strong chance to disturb you is a better solution. (make it a 100% chance for when you don't want any resting).

I can't imagine a less fun way to implement a no rest zone (except Nelson going HA HA every time the monsters appear), why do you feel like making players hit the rest button over and over for no reason until they figure it out when you can just make the area not restable at all?

Also rest limitation like a 8 hours one means that you are forced to restrain battle, and can't make a really difficult battle that would force the player to use everything at his/her disposal.

That's generally mostly true but if you're referring to either the OC or MotB that's not a real issue as there is no such battle.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

So first I'll point out that this thread is really supposed to be about the MotB makeover, not the OC makeover. The rest restrictions are similar in both but not the same because MotB does have a wandering monster system.



Second, I'll also say that the time for alternative suggestions was really over a year ago. What I implemented was based on discussions back then and since then I added a number of enhancements to make the rest system easy for users to modify.



Third, I'll repeat that neither of the makeovers alters any existing areas. I couldn't do that without redistributing OC or MotB modules, which would be legally questionable, would be incompatible with any patches (patches were still a possibility when I started working on the OC Makeover) and could get my work banned from the Vault. So creating buildings, placing triggers and encounters, and many other things were just not practical. Modifications to area on enter scripts and existing conversations provide some means of altering things, but there are limitations.



If you want to rest after every battle then you have several options. Play in easy mode or just temporarily switch to easy mode when you want to rest. Download the Verge of Morpheus from the vault and use it to rest anytime. Modify the campaign options 2da file to disable the rest restrictions.



If you want a wandering monster system to be implemented then you will have to replace the existing rest script with your own. In Kings Festival I use area variables to determine what kinds of creatures should appear when resting, but I decided not to implement that in the OC because it would have required a significant amount of additional time to implement and I figured most people would just turn it off anyway.



I think I have said all I can really say on the topic of resting. Use it or customize it or disable it or replace it.



Regards

[Shallina]

When poeple download others mod is to be a player not a modder

[Kaldor Silverwand]

That's true. And if there is a bug in the makeover that prevents you from playing I'd be glad to look into it.



I suggest you set the game options to easy mode. No modding required. Then all rest restrictions are removed. Or travel to the inns to rest. Or download the Verge of Morpheus. Or switch to easy mode when you want to rest. Or edit the campaign options 2da using notepad or TextEdit. None of these solutions require modding anything. There are several options available to you. Thanks for playing.



Regards

[Shallina]

I want a rest systems tha tmake sense, I want encounter reworked to be challenging, I want to be able to do the convo with all the char, I want a real death system where you aren't resurected and so on...



A full compatibility with a Kaedrin pack.



I want the OC how it should have been, and not the rushed version we had at NWN2 release.



Your work is a step in the right direction, but there are several other step needed for a full makover of the OC

[Will Scarlet]

From the sounds of this, it seems Shallina, that you want Kaldor to do his work by your leave. Why not either just appreciate his hard work and dedication to the players (because God knows he isn't getting paid for this) or leave it alone and find something else?



I actually understand people wanting a limitless sleep system: Unload spell book, decimate opponents, rest, reload, repeat.



As for compatibility with Kaedrin' packs, I totally support Kaldor for not doing it (no offense meant, Kaedrin). Kaldor and Kaedrin would have to continually do joint projects for every single release of their material. They would also have to each issue 2 versions of their work-- one for the makeover w/ the pack and an issue independant of each other. Every time they modify or add to their work, they would have to check with each other and revamp both of their work. It's a needless cycle easily avoided by not having the compatibility.



Kaldor, as I said before, you are a treasure to this community. The makeovers are excellent and thank you for your hard work.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Shallina - Thank you for your opinions. I guess the Makeover isn't a good fit for you.



Will - Thanks for the support.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I've released a small patch that updates the crafting system. Adds some additional flexibility and makes it possible to release custom recipe packs.



Regards

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Just a note that as far as I can tell the conflicts between the latest release of Kaedrin's PrC pack and my OC Makeover and MotB Makeover are fairly minimal. People who want to use both should just be aware that the Makeover Item Level restrictions and Resting restrictions will be disabled (restrictions many people disliked anyway), and that in the OC the clock will not be updated, and in MotB the Spirit Energy consumption will not be automatically paused when idle.



I have not confirmed any other issues and clearly none of these are game breaking.



Regards

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I've posted patch 2011-02-13 which corrects a bug in the Slumbering Coven Dreamscape reported by _MAU_. Obsidian in this case carelessly used the same name for the on client enter scripts in two different areas. So overriding the script in the campaign folder affected both areas instead of only one. The patch updates the script with the logic needed to properly handle both areas.



Regards