88 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...

SajPl wrote...

I dont like the theory that Sovereign lost because he took control of Saren - I mean, if something like that weakened him, why would he do that during a fight? I allways assume that the combined forces of the citadel and alliance fleets took him down, Shepards fight may have helped but that wasn't the most important factor.

What theory? Just facts. Look at the cutscene. Everyone is shooting at him; he gets not a scratch. Then Shepard beats him at the boss fight and it just lets go, turns off. It's what the story tells us. Anything else and... well... you're just fooling yourself.

Also, it's more than evident that it was Sovereign's last attempt at getting in Shepard's way.

Even if it downloaded to Saren it would still be on the ship. You also have to question it's intellect if it leaves an indestructable ship for a body which has already been turned to swiss cheese.

I think it was simply overwhelmed with firepower when the Alliance Fleet arrived. Nothing more than that.

If you think about it if they really were as tough as some people think. They would have no need for subterfuge like the Citadel trap in the first place.

Nope. The facts are there in the game.

Can we start questioning intellect now? I go first. He pretty much was put in a high risk situation. And better be safe than sorry, so he went after Shepard. Apparently, it requires him to keep a link that, if severed, kills (or at least disables) both. Since there are many (very, very, very many) Reapers, putting one at risk in this final grab of easy money to call the bros from dark space seems reasonable.

And yet how many times did Harbinger assume control with no effort  Reaper technology? All Shepard could do was close the gate it's hardly going to threaten Sovereign directly if it's that indestructable is it?

It also begs the question if it was so important , why are they able to come through 2 years later without needing the gate anyway...


Reapers have a vastly over inflated reputation based on a good strategy which does not work anymore.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 31 janvier 2011 - 04:42 .

[Moiaussi]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

But this "proxy" is merely a new retcon.

It doesn't have to be a retcon. The Protheans were geneticly engineered into Collectors. Saren was more of a jury-rigged job. And Sovereign might just have had less actual experience with that kind of warfare and not known or not been skilled at pulling out in time.

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

Is anyone else sick of hearing the word "retcon" in every damn thread? It's probably the most overused word on here.

[AkiKishi]

Moiaussi wrote...
 or not been skilled at pulling out in time.

ROFL

[Sajuro]

xXSnak3Eat3rXx wrote...

Is anyone else sick of hearing the word "retcon" in every damn thread? It's probably the most overused word on here.

Go to a Cerberus/Collector Base/Earth/ or General Humanity thread and you'll see Traitor thrown out there quite often.
but yes, everything that explains something is a retcon.

[SajPl]

NewMessageN00b wrote...
What theory? Just facts. Look at the cutscene. Everyone is shooting at him; he gets not a scratch. Then Shepard beats him at the boss fight and it just lets go, turns off. It's what the story tells us. Anything else and... well... you're just fooling yourself.

Also, it's more than evident that it was Sovereign's last attempt at getting in Shepard's way.

Ok. So lets assume we are an INDESTRUCTIBLE ship named Sovereign. We have te whole citadel fleet against us but it cant even scrath us. So we (Sovereign) being plainly stupid take control of Saren so we can risk being disabled and destroyed by the fleet. I mean really if Sovereign could take on the whole citadel and alliance fleet shouldnt he destroy them first and after that try his luck with Shepard?
I think that Sovereign needed to call reinforcements fast, hence the risk - take on Shepard, kill him, take control of the citadel again and summon the rest of the Reapers. 

[Sajuro]

SajPl wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...
What theory? Just facts. Look at the cutscene. Everyone is shooting at him; he gets not a scratch. Then Shepard beats him at the boss fight and it just lets go, turns off. It's what the story tells us. Anything else and... well... you're just fooling yourself.

Also, it's more than evident that it was Sovereign's last attempt at getting in Shepard's way.

Ok. So lets assume we are an INDESTRUCTIBLE ship named Sovereign. We have te whole citadel fleet against us but it cant even scrath us. So we (Sovereign) being plainly stupid take control of Saren so we can risk being disabled and destroyed by the fleet. I mean really if Sovereign could take on the whole citadel and alliance fleet shouldnt he destroy them first and after that try his luck with Shepard?
I think that Sovereign needed to call reinforcements fast, hence the risk - take on Shepard, kill him, take control of the citadel again and summon the rest of the Reapers. 

Sov's shields remained up even while he controlled Saren and since he was infinitely greater, he was sure he could kill Shepard by assuming direct control of Saren's corpse and thus usher in the new cycle of extinction. If he thought of it as a gamble , to him it would have been a very low risk (since Shepard is a weak meatbag and he is a machine god) for a very high reward (extinction time, yay)

[SajPl]

Sajuro wrote...

SajPl wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...
What theory? Just facts. Look at the cutscene. Everyone is shooting at him; he gets not a scratch. Then Shepard beats him at the boss fight and it just lets go, turns off. It's what the story tells us. Anything else and... well... you're just fooling yourself.

Also, it's more than evident that it was Sovereign's last attempt at getting in Shepard's way.

Ok. So lets assume we are an INDESTRUCTIBLE ship named Sovereign. We have te whole citadel fleet against us but it cant even scrath us. So we (Sovereign) being plainly stupid take control of Saren so we can risk being disabled and destroyed by the fleet. I mean really if Sovereign could take on the whole citadel and alliance fleet shouldnt he destroy them first and after that try his luck with Shepard?
I think that Sovereign needed to call reinforcements fast, hence the risk - take on Shepard, kill him, take control of the citadel again and summon the rest of the Reapers. 

Sov's shields remained up even while he controlled Saren and since he was infinitely greater, he was sure he could kill Shepard by assuming direct control of Saren's corpse and thus usher in the new cycle of extinction. If he thought of it as a gamble , to him it would have been a very low risk (since Shepard is a weak meatbag and he is a machine god) for a very high reward (extinction time, yay)

So we should assume :
Ancient Space god aka Sovereign in his Saren avatar - fail against one small Shepard with one small gun
Ancient Space god aka Sovereign in his ultimate Starship form - fail against a whole bunch of  small ships

If we took everything in the last cut scene to the letter it would mean that ONE shot from the Normandy could go right through Sovereign and destroy it - is that things armor made of paper or what?

Modifié par SajPl, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:35 .

[Sajuro]

I would go with the first one, since there is a reason Sovereign used the crazy strong shield.

[MastaPasta]

So then...what about his 2nd question, when the council said there's no proof of reapers but there was one floating around space <.<



[i only read first page, so if somebody answered, forgive me]

[AkiKishi]

SajPl wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

SajPl wrote...

NewMessageN00b wrote...
What theory? Just facts. Look at the cutscene. Everyone is shooting at him; he gets not a scratch. Then Shepard beats him at the boss fight and it just lets go, turns off. It's what the story tells us. Anything else and... well... you're just fooling yourself.

Also, it's more than evident that it was Sovereign's last attempt at getting in Shepard's way.

Ok. So lets assume we are an INDESTRUCTIBLE ship named Sovereign. We have te whole citadel fleet against us but it cant even scrath us. So we (Sovereign) being plainly stupid take control of Saren so we can risk being disabled and destroyed by the fleet. I mean really if Sovereign could take on the whole citadel and alliance fleet shouldnt he destroy them first and after that try his luck with Shepard?
I think that Sovereign needed to call reinforcements fast, hence the risk - take on Shepard, kill him, take control of the citadel again and summon the rest of the Reapers. 

Sov's shields remained up even while he controlled Saren and since he was infinitely greater, he was sure he could kill Shepard by assuming direct control of Saren's corpse and thus usher in the new cycle of extinction. If he thought of it as a gamble , to him it would have been a very low risk (since Shepard is a weak meatbag and he is a machine god) for a very high reward (extinction time, yay)

So we should assume :
Ancient Space god aka Sovereign in his Saren avatar - fail against one small Shepard with one small gun
Ancient Space god aka Sovereign in his ultimate Starship form - fail against a whole bunch of  small ships

If we took everything in the last cut scene to the letter it would mean that ONE shot from the Normandy could go right through Sovereign and destroy it - is that things armor made of paper or what?

That's why I say the whole "Reaper" thing is a big scary myth. Since nothing we have seen firsthand backs up the claims.

In a stand up fight the Reapers are going to lose.

[Kaltrec]

Zacarius2 wrote...

I like the idea that the derelict was a vanguard. It makes a little better sense. I have always been troubled by why it was left behind. But if it was a previous vanguard that the ancient race discovered and realized what it was, or maybe just out of pure fear of what it might be. It makes sense than that the other reapers did not remove it as they had no knowledge of where it was. It also shows that they have "found another way" before.

We do not know why the Protheans were the only advanced race during their cycle. There seems to be a general consesus that the Protheans were a nice race simply because of the warning cast into the future. But this could simply be the last desprate act of a vengful people. It maybe possible that there were no other advanced races because the Protheans either eliminated or supprest them.

Does anyone doubt that if in real life we find out that humanity is the first race to acheive interstellar travel that there would be factions who advocate the removal and suppression of any alian races found before they achieve space flight and threaten humanity? And if that faction hold sway over the majority of the population that it would not be the enforced policy?

Do not assume the Protheans were peace-loving based on their final desprate act. They could have easily been just as genocidal as the Reapers, just without the smoothies.

This whole plot remiinds me of cutscenes from another game i played a while ago
www.youtube.com/watch

there's 5 of them, for the most part i think it's the same story of what happened to the Protheans

Modifié par Kaltrec, 01 février 2011 - 07:07 .

[JKoopman]

Watch This

Now tell me that it looks like the combined power of the Citadel fleet took Sovereign down.

Clearly defeating Sovereign in his avatar form disables or "stuns" him enough to drop his shields, which gives the fleet (and particularly the Normandy) a momentary opportunity to hit him hard and actually deal some damage, whereas before they were throwing everything they had at Sovereign without even making a scratch and in fact were being decimated themselves and were about 10 seconds shy of pulling back and running for the relay.

Now, the obvious question to be asked is: Why would Sovereign "download" himself into his avatar knowing that it meant the possible destruction of his Reaper body? Well, the answer to that is either 1) Sovereign didn't know that the destruction of his avatar body would leave his Reaper shell temporarily vulnerable and/or 2) He had no choice either way.

Sovereign's objective was to open the relay to dark space and usher in the Reaper invasion. He could no longer do this from outside the Citadel since Shepard had uploaded the Prothean program that effectively locked him out of the system. Sovereign had already failed no less than THREE TIMES over the last few centuries to open the portal (the first when his signal failed to activate the Keepers due to the Prothean's sabotage, the second when he tried to corrupt the Rachni and the third when he tried to use Saren). So Sovereign's only chance of accomplishing his goals was to take one last desperate stab at ending Shepard and activating the relay from the control room. The preservation of his Reaper shell may have only been a secondary concern.

There's no telling how much firepower it would've taken to drop his shields without the help of Commander Shepard, so we really have no way of knowing the approximate ratio of ships to Reapers it would take to come out victorious in an all-out battle.

And in any case, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of Reapers in the invasion fleet. Even if the odds are "only" 20:1 that means the Council needs at minimum 20,000 combat vessels in it's combined fleet just to break even; and they don't have anywhere near that number.

Modifié par JKoopman, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:57 .

[Jacobss]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jacobss wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

During the Battle of the Citadel Shepard says that the Alliance lost 8 ships and the Taurians 20. Given those numbers are Reapers really that great ? Sure it would be a bloody battle but at 28-1 you would win by sheer numbers, there are not that many Reapers. They only won against the Protheans because of isolation tactics, something they can't repeat now.

Sovereign was concentrated on opening the citadel relay and not on the fight with the Alliance ships. Even though he managed to destroy almost every ship surrounding him. Only because of taking direct control, he hast lost. So yes, the Reapers are "that great".

As for the Protheans - the cycle has reapeted itself so many times, that it does not matter if the won by isolation, because EVERY race so far has failed.

And they pulled the same trick every 50,000 years to the point on ME1. Every race fell for the honey trap that was the Citadel.

The Reapers are only going to win if they can choose the battlefield otherwise based on what happened to Sovereign numbers will win.

How do you now that? Maybe there were another races in the past which prepared next races (like protheans did with us) for the Reapers cycle? We just don't now that. I don't think the protheans were the first race to discover Citadel mystery. Still we must wait for the "beings of light" who will save us from the Reapers.

[SajPl]

JKoopman wrote...

Watch This

Now tell me that it looks like the combined power of the Citadel fleet took Sovereign down.

Clearly defeating Sovereign in his avatar form disables or "stuns" him enough to drop his shields, which gives the fleet (and particularly the Normandy) a momentary opportunity to hit him hard and actually deal some damage, whereas before they were throwing everything they had at Sovereign without even making a scratch and in fact were being decimated themselves and were about 10 seconds shy of pulling back and running for the relay.

Now, the obvious question to be asked is: Why would Sovereign "download" himself into his avatar knowing that it meant the possible destruction of his Reaper body? Well, the answer to that is either 1) Sovereign didn't know that the destruction of his avatar body would leave his Reaper shell temporarily vulnerable and/or 2) He had no choice either way.

Sovereign's objective was to open the relay to dark space and usher in the Reaper invasion. He could no longer do this from outside the Citadel since Shepard had uploaded the Prothean program that effectively locked him out of the system. Sovereign had already failed no less than THREE TIMES over the last few centuries to open the portal (the first when his signal failed to activate the Keepers due to the Prothean's sabotage, the second when he tried to corrupt the Rachni and the third when he tried to use Saren). So Sovereign's only chance of accomplishing his goals was to take one last desperate stab at ending Shepard and activating the relay from the control room. The preservation of his Reaper shell may have only been a secondary concern.

There's no telling how much firepower it would've taken to drop his shields without the help of Commander Shepard, so we really have no way of knowing the approximate ratio of ships to Reapers it would take to come out victorious in an all-out battle.

And in any case, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of Reapers in the invasion fleet. Even if the odds are "only" 20:1 that means the Council needs at minimum 20,000 combat vessels in it's combined fleet just to break even; and they don't have anywhere near that number.

At 1:45 the Normandy rips through Sovereigns armor (not shields) in one shot so that would mean Sovereign has super uber indestructible shields and armor that can't stand one shot from such a weak (compared to a Reaper) vessel as the Normandy? 
Now I'm ready to agree with :
2) He had no choice either way.
Because he would have gotten destroyed if he hadn't called the rest of the Reapers to back him up.
Again I'm saing that Shep[ard's destruction of Saren was a factor in disabling his shields but it was one of 2 major factors - the other being attacked by 2 powerful fleets.
If the Reapers would be indestructible then whats the point of opposing them ? I doubt that the 300 (more or less) reapers from the last cutscene will download themselves into avatars like Saren in order to give the organics a chance at destroing those avatars and disabling their shields.
I'm OK with the "Stun" theory.

As for the 2000 vessles - the quarians have 50 000. I know they are mostly old, but at least a few thousand of them needs to be warships that protect the fleet and given the quarians opinion of great mechanics i believe that they can give quite a strong punch despite being old - Tali even mentiones that their ships are constantly repaired and modernised. Then theres the Geth - they probably have quite an impressing fleet too.

[AkiKishi]

Jacobss wrote...
How do you now that? Maybe there were another races in the past which prepared next races (like protheans did with us) for the Reapers cycle? We just don't now that. I don't think the protheans were the first race to discover Citadel mystery. Still we must wait for the "beings of light" who will save us from the Reapers.

I think it's said as much in ME1 the Citadel is there as a trap. The Reaper strategy is to isolate the Mass Effect Relays and take out a system at a time.  The Reapers have never had a head on fight ME3 will be the first time. Which means they are going to lose.

The Reapers don't actually wipe out everyone. Humanity is older than 50k years after all.

[Falross]

I have no trouble believing that one Reaper can be killed. A Reaper fleet, on the other hand will just lay waste to anything and everything it feels like. I think the derelict Reaper was an advance scout like Sovereign that got outed and subsequently destroyed/crippled. I guess it could also just be a casualty of the last Reaper purge. Just because they wiped everyone out doesn't mean they didn't take losses.



There's a few possiblities.

[Moiaussi]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Yes, apparently so. The shields seem to be the real deal. And, no, not paper. As we can see that not all shots penetrate and that some of that Joker's magic is needed to accelerate a bit and release the blob of... destruction... or whatever.

Or Joker saw the shields dropping and showboated.

I might be mislabeling it... new word in my vocab. What I meant is that it's nowhere explained and somewhat contradicts to what we were set to believe. To which "retcon" seems like closest, but not really it, as it's a variation upon what we know of mind control ability so far, since Sovereign got disabled because the link was severed and here it isn't quite evident if it's the "Collector general" with minor non-really-Reaper mind control ability or Harbinger being able not to get disabled because of a proxy (or even better: he gets disabled, but we don't see it or the effects are minimal because the... link... is weak? or something?), which again is some sort of magic that isn't really introduced, but rather overused as suggests the last shots of the "general".

And, as I said, him downloading into that Saren-thing is a risk. A last stand in a grab for easy money. As his cover is already somewhat blown, he needs to close down the other relays and open the Citadel relay to at least remotely succeed, which I suppose was the easiest route aside from a direct invasion (and we now know that it will happen... or not; maybe it was a dream; the point is: other plans may be hundred times harder and lengthier).

There is a basic principle in analysis that one data point does not indicate a trend. There were significant differences between Sovereign's actions and those of Harbinger.

Harbinger was rather a lot more distant. Mecha-saren fought a LOT better than any possessed collector.

Also, two years had passed and it is possible they learned from Sovereign's mistake.

Regardless, there wasn't enough information to conclude that Sovereign's actions were 'reaper standard procedure'

[Jacobss]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jacobss wrote...
How do you now that? Maybe there were another races in the past which prepared next races (like protheans did with us) for the Reapers cycle? We just don't now that. I don't think the protheans were the first race to discover Citadel mystery. Still we must wait for the "beings of light" who will save us from the Reapers.

I think it's said as much in ME1 the Citadel is there as a trap. The Reaper strategy is to isolate the Mass Effect Relays and take out a system at a time.  The Reapers have never had a head on fight ME3 will be the first time. Which means they are going to lose.

The Reapers don't actually wipe out everyone. Humanity is older than 50k years after all.

Thank you Captain Obvious! Without you, I would not know that Citadel is a trap, that Reapers don't wipe everyone out and that Reapers always shut all Mass Effect relays for the advantage.

Serious now, I KNOW that (you don't need to explain me obvious things, I've played ME 1 many times), but again I asked you, how do you now that no other race before knew about the Reapers?

Modifié par Jacobss, 31 janvier 2011 - 06:57 .

[samurai crusade]

SajPl wrote...

I dont like the theory that Sovereign lost because he took control of Saren - I mean, if something like that weakened him, why would he do that during a fight? I allways assume that the combined forces of the citadel and alliance fleets took him down, Shepards fight may have helped but that wasn't the most important factor.

Why would he do that?   If Sovereign kills Shepard as the avatar... he then gains control of the Citadel... Reaper fleet comes to town and lights out evolved galactic life. That is why Sovereign was willing to put everything he had into one last chance to bring back the fleet. It was the most logical thing to do... and Saren spent thousands of years figuring out how to bring back the Reapers.  (you know, using indoctrinated workers to piece together how the Protheans caused the Keepers to not relay the signals of the Citadel).

[Vaenier]

JKoopman wrote...

Watch This

Now tell me that it looks like the combined power of the Citadel fleet took Sovereign down.

Clearly defeating Sovereign in his avatar form disables or "stuns" him enough to drop his shields, which gives the fleet (and particularly the Normandy) a momentary opportunity to hit him hard and actually deal some damage, whereas before they were throwing everything they had at Sovereign without even making a scratch and in fact were being decimated themselves and were about 10 seconds shy of pulling back and running for the relay.

Now, the obvious question to be asked is: Why would Sovereign "download" himself into his avatar knowing that it meant the possible destruction of his Reaper body? Well, the answer to that is either 1) Sovereign didn't know that the destruction of his avatar body would leave his Reaper shell temporarily vulnerable and/or 2) He had no choice either way.

Sovereign's objective was to open the relay to dark space and usher in the Reaper invasion. He could no longer do this from outside the Citadel since Shepard had uploaded the Prothean program that effectively locked him out of the system. Sovereign had already failed no less than THREE TIMES over the last few centuries to open the portal (the first when his signal failed to activate the Keepers due to the Prothean's sabotage, the second when he tried to corrupt the Rachni and the third when he tried to use Saren). So Sovereign's only chance of accomplishing his goals was to take one last desperate stab at ending Shepard and activating the relay from the control room. The preservation of his Reaper shell may have only been a secondary concern.

There's no telling how much firepower it would've taken to drop his shields without the help of Commander Shepard, so we really have no way of knowing the approximate ratio of ships to Reapers it would take to come out victorious in an all-out battle.

And in any case, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of Reapers in the invasion fleet. Even if the odds are "only" 20:1 that means the Council needs at minimum 20,000 combat vessels in it's combined fleet just to break even; and they don't have anywhere near that number.

1. A remote control drone dieing killing its controller remotely is the dumbest idea i have ever heard. its up there with putting c4 in your control consoles so people get their faces blown off when the shields get shot.
2. The Geth have multiple fleets of 5,000 to 10,000 ships each. combat capabilities are unknown.