230 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
uh, you WOULD be right if they added the race altogether without ever having given info aboout it...... but as it is they altered it in saying that the vast  majority of the Qunari are born with horns which was never EVER mentioned in any of the codex entries even the ones that detailed the Qunari wars. How does that NOT alter our established informations?

My apologies you clearly have a copy of Grey's Qunari Anatomy that am I unfamiliar with because I have never seen anything that establishes the detailed anatomy of the race.
Nothing ever said the qunari don't have horns so saying they do changes absolutely nothing.

they are called "Ashen Giants" in the codex....you know...PERHAPS if they hade huge horns the decuments regarding them would have referred to them as horned Giants?..just saying

every single Qunari we ever met including Tal Vashots have no horns and no stumps, no one EVER mentions the fact Qunari have horns not even in the novels if I remember correctly.

so, as I said before you ARE using the fact that no one ever directly says that Qunari have no horns as proof that devs wanted to do this all along. Cool, Good for you

Modifié par crimzontearz, 30 janvier 2011 - 11:58 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Meltemph wrote...
It just seems to me like you are just trying to find anything you can, wrong with what they did, because you don't personally like the change(which you've already said you did not).

It seems to me that a lot of people think they're not allowed to dislike something just because... So they build these big elaborate reasons which they also then use to say anyone who does like something is inherently wrong.

Absolutely mind boggling.

I'll argue the definition of retcon all day long but at the end of the day I don't give a rats behind if someone likes the changes or not. It won't have the slightest impact on my enjoying the game.
-edit-

crimzontearz wrote...
so, as I said before you ARE using the fact that no one ever directly says that Qunari have no horns as proof that devs wanted to do this all along. Cool, Good for you

Woooah hold your horses buckaroo. I most certainly did not say that. I never have and never will say the devs wanted to do this all along.
I said there is a difference between an addition and a retcon and that this addition fits into the established lore.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:04 .

[crimzontearz]

Meltemph wrote...

the same can be said for other media who have to deal with multiplayer and multichronicle balancing as well as specific setting as well as adventures/chronicles to be periodically released. Lore is not the "only" thing a pen and paper company deals with but after 5 years or even only 2 certain details are established.

It just seems to me like you are just trying to find anything you can, wrong with what they did, because you don't personally like the change(which you've already said you did not).

TSK TSK

re read my posts, I like the new look, indeed I do. I welcome it as I find the new arti direction incredibly promising.....

tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

[Jimmy Fury]

In Fact....

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Don't get me wrong, it's certainly a change and the whole "some Qunari have horns" is totally an excuse to explain the change. I'm not trying to say they had it planned that way the whole time, just that we should count our blessings that Gaider came up with an excuse that is simple and actually fits and isn't technically a retcon.

-edit for ohmylordwhyisthissoabsurd-
Before you say anything, I was saying that to someone who was WELL AWARE that by "change" I meant addition-to-established-continuity and not alteration-to-established-continuity.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:10 .

[Meltemph]

TSK TSK

re read my posts, I like the new look, indeed I do. I welcome it as I find the new arti direction incredibly promising.....

tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

there was no reason to add gigantic horns to the Qunari to make them look not human where they could have just capitalized on what made them different to begin with (size and skin) why changing minor things

Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe you are being genuine, but, it's hard for me to accept, since, you come across almost hurt by it and come across very passionate about it(to the point of overly dramatic, imo).

Modifié par Meltemph, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:12 .

[Jimmy Fury]

crimzontearz wrote...
tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

I'll bite...
What would you prefer they have done in order to change the art direction of the game...


i am going to regret this but jiminiy crickets if it ends this absurd circular debate then i WELCOME THE REGRET! [shakes fist in the air]

[crimzontearz]

Meltemph wrote...

TSK TSK

re read my posts, I like the new look, indeed I do. I welcome it as I find the new arti direction incredibly promising.....

tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

there was no reason to add gigantic horns to the Qunari to make them look not human where they could have just capitalized on what made them different to begin with (size and skin) why changing minor things

Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe you are being genuine, but, it's hard for me to accept, since, you come across almost hurt by it and come across very passionate about it(to the point of overly dramatic, imo).

I can actually separate the "result" of a change from the "idea" of the change or the "motive" behind it.

[TJPags]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

I'll bite...
What would you prefer they have done in order to change the art direction of the game...


i am going to regret this but jiminiy crickets if it ends this absurd circular debate then i WELCOME THE REGRET! [shakes fist in the air]

I hate to butt in, but was it really necessary to change the art direction in the first place? 

I mean, clearly they wanted to, and clearly they did.  But did they need to?

[Meltemph]

TJPags wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

I'll bite...
What would you prefer they have done in order to change the art direction of the game...


i am going to regret this but jiminiy crickets if it ends this absurd circular debate then i WELCOME THE REGRET! [shakes fist in the air]

I hate to butt in, but was it really necessary to change the art direction in the first place? 

I mean, clearly they wanted to, and clearly they did.  But did they need to?

Well of course it wasn't needed, but I don't know what good it does by taking that approach either.  Maybe not that specific change(though I like it) but I personally felt like they needed to change the Qunari model.

Modifié par Meltemph, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[lostspline]

crimzontearz wrote...

I can actually separate the "result" of a change from the "idea" of the change or the "motive" behind it.

Exactly.  Like how Oblivion represents Cyrodiil as a forested instead of jungled region.  An in-game book explains the change with in-world rationalizations but it was still a retcon that a lot of people dislike. 

[AlexXIV]

Meltemph wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

I'll bite...
What would you prefer they have done in order to change the art direction of the game...


i am going to regret this but jiminiy crickets if it ends this absurd circular debate then i WELCOME THE REGRET! [shakes fist in the air]

I hate to butt in, but was it really necessary to change the art direction in the first place? 

I mean, clearly they wanted to, and clearly they did.  But did they need to?

Well of course it wasn't needed, but I don't know what good it does by taking that approach either.  Maybe not that specific change(though I like it) but I personally feel like they needed to change the Qunari model.

Why exactly did you find they needed to change the Qunari model? I mean it looked human-like. So do elves and dwarves. Yet they still look human-like in DA2. What makes the Qunari special?

[crimzontearz]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

I'll bite...
What would you prefer they have done in order to change the art direction of the game...


i am going to regret this but jiminiy crickets if it ends this absurd circular debate then i WELCOME THE REGRET! [shakes fist in the air]

the new art direction is not about the details per se but how they are achieved visually

let me give you an example.....

Big ass guy in armor: 


Marcus Fenix


War

same concept (big guy in armor) two totally different art styles (ignore the obvious differences in the details of the armor that is not the point).The "horns" themselves are not the art style nor an indication of the new art style, the art style is the feel that is given by the visual representation of the subject. Horns themselves as a subject can look completely different depending on the art style

now....with the new, more stylized comic-book/story-book like Art direction I, as I sais, would have capitalized on what already were traits  that made the Qunari somewhat different. Size and skin. I qould have made them taller and larger and darkened their skin even more so to resemble bronze....which given the new shader they are using would have looked very interesting. And it would have retconned nothing really only acdentuated a difference that was not translated well in the first game because of technical difficulties


honestly tho I like horns......

[AlexXIV]

lostspline wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I can actually separate the "result" of a change from the "idea" of the change or the "motive" behind it.

Exactly.  Like how Oblivion represents Cyrodiil as a forested instead of jungled region.  An in-game book explains the change with in-world rationalizations but it was still a retcon that a lot of people dislike. 

Why should anyone like a change that they find unnecessary or even worse than it was before? I mean if you are a prisoner and the change is that you are set free it is a good change. If you were free and the change is that you are a prisoner now it is a bad change. How come that people are not allowed to complain about changes they percieve as 'worse than before'? Do we have to smile and act like everything is perfect just to make everyone happy?

[TJPags]

Meltemph wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
tho, the idea of the change done as it was done? nope.....don't like that

I'll bite...
What would you prefer they have done in order to change the art direction of the game...


i am going to regret this but jiminiy crickets if it ends this absurd circular debate then i WELCOME THE REGRET! [shakes fist in the air]

I hate to butt in, but was it really necessary to change the art direction in the first place? 

I mean, clearly they wanted to, and clearly they did.  But did they need to?

Well of course it wasn't needed, but I don't know what good it does by taking that approach either.  Maybe not that specific change(though I like it) but I personally felt like they needed to change the Qunari model.

Forgive me, but this seems contradictory.  You say they didn't need to change it, but then say you personally felt they needed to change it.

Care to elaborate?

[Jimmy Fury]

TJPags wrote...
I hate to butt in, but was it really necessary to change the art direction in the first place? 

I mean, clearly they wanted to, and clearly they did.  But did they need to?

Nope.

[Meltemph]

Why exactly did you find they needed to change the Qunari model? I mean it looked human-like. So do elves and dwarves. Yet they still look human-like in DA2. What makes the Qunari special?

Well, outside of expectations...



Dwarves and Elves have a fantasy look to them that have always been what they are. To me at least Qunari are exactly human in appearance to me outside of size. When I see a dwarf in game I would immediately recognize it as a dwarf, same with elves(obviously, previous experiences with those races helped). When I saw a Qunari that was not sten in the game if it was not for the fact that the in-game models were confined to the same hight, I would have no clue it was a Qunari nor would I ever think of them as a non-human.

[alickar]

mostly.

[Meltemph]

Forgive me, but this seems contradictory. You say they didn't need to change it, but then say you personally felt they needed to change it.

Care to elaborate?

Sure.

They technically and non subjectively, did not need to. However, when I add in my own preconceptions and expectations, me personally, I thought a change was needed to make them more distinct.

That said if they did not change them, I wouldn't be complaining about it even if I was a bit disappointed. I'm just acknowledging it is just my opinion and they did not really need to change it, I just wanted them to.

Modifié par Meltemph, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:38 .

[TJPags]

Meltemph wrote...

Forgive me, but this seems contradictory. You say they didn't need to change it, but then say you personally felt they needed to change it.

Care to elaborate?

Sure.

They technically and non subjectively, did not need to. However, when I add in my own preconceptions and expectations, me personally, I thought a change was needed to make them more distinct.

That said if they did not change them, I wouldn't be complaining about it even if I was a bit disappointed. I'm just acknowledging it is just my opinion and they did not really need to change it, I just wanted them to.

Ahh, gotcha.  Fair enough.

Personally, I had no problem with the Qunari as they were in DA:O.  I actually think the new art style is much better for them, though.

However, I think the new look is very different than the old one - as someone else said (I forget who, may not have been in this thread) it's an over-the-top change, IMO.  And that bothers me.

Will it prevent me from buying the game?  Nope.  Will it prevent me from playing it?  Nope.  Will it prevent me from enjoying it?  Nope.  Will it continue to bother me?  Yup.

[Meltemph]

Eh. Maybe it won't bother you as long as you think it will. I got over the orginal Quanri look for the most part, until someone asked me or it was brought up.

That said. If they did not treat the Qunari as a completely different race from human(instead of just being a sub-type of human) and if the Ogres were not such a dramatic change by comparison, I wouldn't have been disappointed by them.

It's probably the main reason it doesn't seem over-the-top to me, because they were so underwhelming by comparison before the change/added models.

Modifié par Meltemph, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:47 .

[lostspline]

AlexXIV wrote...

lostspline wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I can actually separate the "result" of a change from the "idea" of the change or the "motive" behind it.

Exactly.  Like how Oblivion represents Cyrodiil as a forested instead of jungled region.  An in-game book explains the change with in-world rationalizations but it was still a retcon that a lot of people dislike. 

 How come that people are not allowed to complain about changes they percieve as 'worse than before'?

Did I say that people can't complain? I was just implying that rationalizations will not make people like a retcon if they already dislike it.  And more importantly, I was agreeing that someone can like the result without liking the assumed motive.

Personally, I like the new Qunari (and the new Cyrodiil) but the motives of both changes are questionable.  Qunari becoming more devilish and Cyrodiil becoming more LOTRish both point to motives that I'm not fond of....

Modifié par lostspline, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:54 .

[AlexXIV]

lostspline wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

lostspline wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I can actually separate the "result" of a change from the "idea" of the change or the "motive" behind it.

Exactly.  Like how Oblivion represents Cyrodiil as a forested instead of jungled region.  An in-game book explains the change with in-world rationalizations but it was still a retcon that a lot of people dislike. 

 How come that people are not allowed to complain about changes they percieve as 'worse than before'?

Did
I say that people can't complain? I was just implying that
rationalizations will not make people like a retcon if they already
dislike it.  And more importantly, I was agreeing that someone can like the result without liking the assumed motive.

Personally, I like the new Qunari (and the new Cyrodiil) but the motives of both changes are questionable.  Qunari becoming more devilish and Cyrodiil becoming more LOTRish both point to motives that I'm not fond of....

Well my post was meant in agreement with yours, just something I wanted to add.

I just wonder how how people would react if people of Skyrim would get horns. They are not like the normal imperial people, they are larger, stronger, etc. Much like the Qunari in DA. Just that in DA the north is hot and in TES the north is cold. They are basically a different race. Yet people are fine with them looking like humans.

[Dark Specie]

lostspline wrote...
Qunari becoming more devilish and Cyrodiil becoming more LOTRish both point to motives that I'm not fond of....

You mean that you fear that the setting(s) will lean more towards Black & White?

[Meltemph]

They are basically a different race. Yet people are fine with them looking like humans.

Because they are still a sub-type of human. They are not a different race(species in this context really). Where as the Qunari are not human(at all) and are a different race. The Qunari according to the game are a different race as Argonian's are to the human races.

[lostspline]

Dark Specie wrote...

You mean that you fear that the setting(s) will lean more towards Black & White?

I wouldn't go that far!  But, I do fear that they are building the Qunari to be villains for future games.  The more imposing 'devilish' appearance so that players will feel more accomplished and righteous when crushing them.

I hope that is not their motive but I do fear it.