80 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockworm503]

I think the OPs argument is flawed by one simple factor. He treats his opinion as fact and want someone to come in and dispute them like a science forum or something.

The truth of it is he has his opinion and I have mine and everyone else has theirs and there is little we can say to change his and visa versa.

[SuperFly_2000]

To mee anything that is not at least remotely based on a turn based D&D like system is not an RPG...no matter what peope say....

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 03 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[vometia]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

To mee anything that is not at least remotely based on a turn based D&D like system is not an RPG...no matter what peope say....

I'm not sure I understand why (unless you're speaking in terms of personal preferences, in which case I can understand perfectly).  I've seen a few people say "that's not how D&D does it", but I doubt it would be a good thing if every RPG was a D&D clone.

[SleeplessInSigil]

My friend, who hasn't played games for a good while now and had no plans to until Dragon Age started to interest him because of the story and the world of Thedas, just tried the DA2 demo from Steam yesterday.

He got turned off by the combat.


I don't know how the DA2 demo goes (I've pre-purchased the game and pre-loading it right now) but "Considering they dumped me into a boring fight with darkspawn - no." was his response when I asked if he liked the setting, and

"They need to not waste my time with a whole bunch of enemies that even look the same, before I have even started caring about the story." 


I'm just mentioning this because I'd never imagine anyone complaining about the combat in a JRPG, which they tend to strive to make as fun as the rest of the game. A non-gamer who tries to get into an RPG because of the story and characters, will not have much tolerance for a mandatory combat system that borders on a chore.

Just saying.

[Funkcase]

I play RPG's to role play, not for crappy turn based combat. In JRPGs there's no customisation and no descision making, I dont actually know how anyone can call them RPG's at all.

[SleeplessInSigil]

Funkcase wrote...

I play RPG's to role play, not for crappy turn based combat. In JRPGs there's no customisation and no descision making, I dont actually know how anyone can call them RPG's at all.

I see, when -THE- definitive Western RPG, Dungeons & Dragons, is literally built around turn-based combat.

As for "customisation and decision making" in JRPGs check out The Last Remnant, which I mentioned in the OP, or FF Tactics, Chrono Trigger, and many others.

On the WRPG side, Temple of Elemental Evil one of the few post-DOS WRPGs which comes close to having meaningful combat IMO, mostly because it stays true to D&D instead of bastardizing it.

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 07 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[I Valente I]

hmm well the best combat in any rpg Ive played was Baldur's Gate ii, a very western rpg. of course, once you look past the infinity engine, its pretty much japanese games that have the edge, mostly tactics games like Tactics Ogre and FF tactics(both actually a LOT like D&D). It just seems that all western rpgs are either going shooter or trying to turn into WoW.

[Bryy_Miller]

TheMufflon wrote...

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

That's not just an opinion. 

Yes, it is just an opinion.

No, it's not. He goes on to EXPLIAIN his opinion. Don't you know that once you explain why you think something, it becomes fact?

[Dangerfoot]

What a terrible thread. I can't believe I just posted in such a terrible thread. I am disappointed in myself.

[RainyDayLover]

I agree with you that combat sucks in WRPGs but adapting turn-based combat isn't the solution. Just look at Demon's Souls -- now THAT is how combat should be done in RPGs.

[bussinrounds]

RainyDayLover wrote...

I agree with you that combat sucks in WRPGs but adapting turn-based combat isn't the solution. Just look at Demon's Souls -- now THAT is how combat should be done in RPGs.

      For action rpgs, yes i agree , the melee combat ( not magic ) was very well done in Demons Souls. 

But a single player party based game should be tactical and based on the stats and rolls , like real d&d.
 
 It's like two different generes really.

[GRX Dragon]

I'd prefer a mix between JRPG and WRPG myself.

Not just because of the battle system; undoubtedly, I hate how W/RPGs have a predetermined amount of enemies to kill, rather than having random fights (which are the very essence of an RPG besides storyline)

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

What does the J in JRPG stand for and what does the W in WRPG stand for?

Japanese and Western.

o_CLeVeR_o wrote...

i personally dislike the turn base system, i mean sure it worked with the old school jrpg's, but with the games today being more action based and cinematic i feel it slows the game down and throws it off pace, it was probably the only thing i hated about lost odyssey for example, it just felt outdated.

The one thing about LO I did like was the TBC, everything else was too bland for me.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

To mee anything that is not at least remotely based on a turn based D&D like system is not an RPG...no matter what peope say....

I think there's more things than just the battle system being TBC being required to actually be considered by myself as an RPG, but yeah, TBC is definitely a major factor.

RainyDayLover wrote...

I agree with you that combat sucks in WRPGs but adapting turn-based combat isn't the solution. Just look at Demon's Souls -- now THAT is how combat should be done in RPGs.

DS definitely had an excellent combat system...

[Pechvogel]

Funkcase wrote...

I play RPG's to role play, not for crappy turn based combat. In JRPGs there's no customisation and no descision making, I dont actually know how anyone can call them RPG's at all.

Shin Megami Tensei games party customization system is made of pure awesome.
Probably the best I have ever seen. You can actually recruit any creature you encounter in a battle.
You can than fuse them to create a new one, with a unique set of skills, that will be best suited for your next encounter. Its a vary unique game mechanics, which requires a lot of planing, and encourages experimentation. Its both challenging and satisfying, a dungeon crawler at its best.

Star Ocean is another good example of complex customization system. The share amount of crafting you could do in that game is ridiculous.

As for decision making, if it boils down to romancing, than I can do without it. Actually if a game can provide some solid atmosphere and engaging combat, the plot can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. But if you are that adamant about the story, I suggest you give Vagrant Story a try, its a jrpg without the angsty stuff.

JRPGS are not afraid to take risks, I can appreciate that. Vary often they come up with some vary unique game mechanics, that can be both tactical and fun, think Valkyria Chronicles. Nuff said.

Modifié par Pechvogel, 07 mars 2011 - 09:29 .

[88mphSlayer]

i used to love jrpg's but eventually got tired of them for basically having the energy level of a 10 year old with ADHD for 80 hours...

ie: been replaying Xenogears for the first time since 1999 and playing Planescape Torment simultaneously, bought new copies of both the same day... the first week i was bored of PST and really into Xenogears which moved at a much faster pace... week 2 tho Xenogears' unchanging hyper story/music start to wore thin and since then i've been playing and enjoying PST's slower more methodical pace, i actually enjoy diplomatically getting out of combat in PST more than fighting yet another 30 random battles in Xenogears

some more recent jrpg's i love tho: Valkyria Chronicles, for an anime-style jrpg this one is very understated and quite strategic, and Demon's Souls which is also understated for a jrpg to the point that it doesn't feel uniquely eastern or western, also a slow pace

tried to get into Lost Odyssey and just couldn't do it, dunno, i'm close to finishing PST so i'll go back to grinding on Xenogears for awhile until i need another break

[ErichHartmann]

Demon Souls has the best RPG combat right now.

[Celeryroot]

Honestly, I really hated Lost Odyssey. The battle system was so archaic and unoriginal it put me to sleep.

Interestingly enough, I found the stories in the lost memories to be far more compelling than anything in the main plot.

Lost Odyssey is a fossil of a game. Granted, it's not as bad as Final Fantasy XIII but it doesn't even begin to tread water next to Bioware.

[88mphSlayer]

anybody played Nier? thoughts?

[Few87]

Is this serious?! JRPGs are a joke

[SleeplessInSigil]

Few87 wrote...

Is this serious?! JRPGs are a joke

A joke on WRPGs, laughing all the way to the bank

[Quixal]

Variety. 'Tis the spice of life.

I like turn-based combat and I like something a little more action based. I like that the lines are being blurred but also like that some folks are sticking to traditional styles. When I am finished with a game, I am usually eager to try something different rather than a clone of the game I just finished. I hope debates like these never truly come to a consensus.

[SleeplessInSigil]

Quixal wrote...

Variety. 'Tis the spice of life.

...

I hope debates like these never truly come to a consensus.

Agreed. ★

[Celeryroot]

88mphSlayer wrote...

anybody played Nier? thoughts?

Nier is a mixed bag.  On the bright side it has a great storyline and even manages to break many JRPG stereotypes(I.E. The protagonist is a middle aged guy in his 40's and has a daughter).  On the other hand, the combat is mostly button mashing and requires little strategy.

I'd reccommend it since it's so cheap but I suggest you skip all the boring side quests and just focus on the highly compelling main plot.

[FlintlockJazz]

Why does combat suck in JRPGs? It's all grind, you walk ten feet and BAM! You're in a fight, not only with just meaningless trash mobs, but trash mobs that often don't make any sense with the entire world the game is set in, let alone the location you are in. Seriously, all JRPGs are just grinds with a story they have recycled again and again (bisexual boy saves world) barely linking them together.

That's what I'd put if I thought my opinion is fact anyway. And thought that stereotypes are fact.  Which it's not of course and they are not.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 10 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[AlanC9]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...
I see, when -THE- definitive Western RPG, Dungeons & Dragons, is literally built around turn-based combat.

You mean post-3.0 editions, of course. I'm not certain AD&D counts as turn-based by your standard. The old board wargaming term for that system was phase-based, FWIW.

[SleeplessInSigil]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Why does combat suck in JRPGs? It's all grind, you walk ten feet and BAM! You're in a fight, not only with just meaningless trash mobs, but trash mobs that often don't make any sense with the entire world the game is set in, let alone the location you are in. Seriously, all JRPGs are just grinds with a story they have recycled again and again (bisexual boy saves world) barely linking them together.

Allow me to "LOL:"   LOL.

What's with all the childish replies of what's essentially "Oh Yeah? Well you too!!1" as if complaining about the competition will somehow magically fix the flaws that you yourself have.

This thread isn't about JRPGs, and it's not about WRPGs versus JRPGs.

You might as well criticize First-Person-Shooters or the political situation in Rwandazabistan for all the difference it'll make to the current state of WRPGs (entire races of pointy-eared androgynes living in trees, hairy midgets living in the ground, flying lizards that breathe fire, a taboo on gunpowder enforcing the use of primitive weapons and magic wands for a thousand centuries, over and over and over.)



I kind of feel sorry for the fans of anything who feel the need to attack everything else in sight whenever you point out something wrong in their favorites, instead of, you know, actually defending their favorite on its own merit.