167 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Since one thread rejected discussion on the matter, and that I will not be deterred from discussing it, I've decided to make a thread about an issue I find interesting and worth pondering on. Of course, all are welcome to discuss.

And the issue revolves around Maric giving Alistair up to Eamon.
The purpose of the thread is to put Maric's giving away of Alistair to Eamon under scrutiny. I argue it's very imprudent. And to speculate on possible backroom politics involving the entire issue, specifically sending Alistair away to the Chantry. 

Now am I the only one who finds this very unwise and bordering on stupid?
The whole point of giving Alistair up is to keep him away from politics, for his own safety and that of the kingdom. Sending him to one of the most powerful nobles in the land seems to be doing the opposite. And for a very crucial factor that a king should consider: The political situation in Ferelden.

What are the facts:
- Ferelden is still very unstable, if the Landsmeets after the occupation are any indication and competition is practically the norm. Anything can destabilize it. 

- The Guerrins arranged a political marriage with the Therins, via Rowan, to strengthen their alliance and mutual interests. With Rowan dead prematurely, the Guerrins don't get out of the war with much, except Redcliffe which is theirs by right and that is despite the sacrifice of the late Arl.

- Compared to this, the Mac Tirs rose through the ranks monumentally. Loghain became Teyrn. Not only that, his daughter was groomed to be Queen. I doubt Eamon was unaware that Loghain practically lives in Denerim. So it's obvious who is going to have more influence with Maric's heir, Cailan. 

- Alistair can be used as a weapon to destablize the system and challenge Cailan (more or less succesfully, depends on how it's played). That's the whole reason why Maric opted to abandon him, he was a threat to Ferelden's stability.

Now all these factors taken into consideration, does giving Alistair to Eamon sound like a wise thing to do?
What if Eamon is unsatisfied with the status quo? I mean the Guerreins, especially after Rowan's death, didn't get much compared to the Mac Tirs. In an environment of competition between feudal lords and families, one can only assume that Eamon is hardly disinterested and potentially feels threatened by what can be percieved as Mac Tirian encroachement. Maric is giving him a potentially destabilizing weapon.

Now some will mention trust and that Maric basically trusts Eamon. Barring the fact that I believe being too trusting of anyone to be a major flaw, especially when dealing with politics, can Maric say with absolute certainty that Eamon is trustworthy and that he will ignore what's happening around him? With all the facts I've listed, this sounds like a recipee for disaster.

Maybe that's only me, but a king should attempt to consider all possible scenarios and base predictions on current factors, especially when it comes to something that will be very crucial after his death. This is the fate of an entire nation we are talking about and not only a child.  All things considered, giving Alistair to Eamon is very unwise and imprudent. Assuming that loyalty is going to overcome material realities, in issues like this, is imprudent and bordering on political idiocy. Maric can't know Eamon's motives and I am not asking him to kill Eamon based on suspicions. What I am expecting hwoever is for a king to understand the political reality around him and suspect that his feudal lords are self-interested first and foremost especially when it comes to something that will come into play after his death. With that in mind, no prudent mind would give a weapon to a lord that has very strong (and valid) reasons to be dissatisfied. 

Now I personally believe that it was Eamon who jumped at the opportunity and volunteered to take Alistair over. Could be due to inexplicable blind loyalty. I find it more likely however that a cunning  politician like Eamon was maneuvring to get "political cards". Which leads me to the theory that Eamon did not want to send Alistair away to the Chantry. While yes Alistair would get some education there (and brainwashing), a lyrium addicted and brainwahshed king does not sound like a good idea and that's assuming that Eamon can demand that the Chantry returns Alistair to him. I find it unlikely, considering that Duncan had to use the seldomly used Right of Conscription to get him out. So I personally think that Eamon sending Alistair to the Chantry as a plan B, hoping that he can retrieve him later to be unlikely.

What I find more likely is that Eamon was pressured to abandon Alistair to the Chantry. And not by Isolde. If it was Isolde's whining, Eamon could have done something different and less drastic. Which leads me to believe that he was pressured to by an outside force. The more likely candidate is Loghain, or Loghain via Maric. If Eamon really decided to throw away a very powerful tool like that because Isolde didn't like it, then Eamon is much less intelligent than I thought.

It is my opinion that Maric was not really the main actor here, but was being played around by Eamon and Loghain. Either that, or he consciensly and soberly decided to give alsitair away to Eamon, virtually ignoring all political realities and possibilities.  In the context of a politically arranged marriage since childhood, Eamon's status as brother-in-law is pretty irrelevent, especially when Rowan died. So in either case, Maric comes off in a pretty bad light and imo, displays below average intelligence expected from a king.

So what are your thoughts?
Do you think Maric acted prudently when giving his son away to a very powerful nobleman who can be disastified with the status quo, in an attempt to remove him from politics completely? 

And do you think there was more at play in sending Alistair away to the Chantry, than Isolde complaining?

And the purpose of the thread is not to villify Eamon. I am respecting him more and more and I can only understand his possible dissatisfaction with the status quo. Not that he did much personally to deserve more, it was his father who did, but still.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 03:52 .

[LupusYondergirl]

Isolde's family controlled Redcliffe during the occupation. I've always wondered just how powerful they were in Orlais... was she working on Eamon in secret on their behalf? Not sure, but it's something to consider.

Alistair was, what, five years younger than Cailan? He went to the Chantry at ten. That would probably be just about when they realized his teenage half brother was, um, perhaps not entirely suited for a leadership role. Anywhere. Ever. Alistair is really only a threat if Cailan was unpopular or out of the picture. If he did a find job and people loved him, well, even a small group wanting to depose in favor of his bastard half brother wouldn't get very far.

If he was a glory-obsessed twit with his head in the clouds and a fixation on living up to some sort of legendary standard set by his ancestors... that half brother becomes much more attractive.



So... a few theories.

1. Alistair was sent to the Chantry when it became obvious Cailan was a glorious, glorious twinkie. This could be because Orlais, pestering Eamon via Isolde, liked the idea of Ferelden with weak leadership and wanted to make sure no other players could prevent that from becoming reality. Or it could be because Maric (or more likely, Loghain) didn't want the Cailan/Anora rule challenged by someone who might be more suited to the kingship than Cailan. They aren't so cold as to kill him, but the Chantry is a nice place to stick someone which would make him completely ineligible to do anything else, ever.

2. Eamnon did, in his own classist way, care about Alistair. He saw him as lesser because he was a bastard and the son of a commoner, but he didn't want anything BAD to happen to him. When he saw how the wind was starting to blow he sent Alistair to the Chantry not to get rid of him, but to make him less of a threat and preserve his safety before someone would remove him from the picture preemptively. A templar is no threat to the ruling regime, there's no reason to assassinate one of them.



Of course, we're assuming they KNOW about the lyrium addiction. I suspect that even the highest ranks of nobility weren't let in on that little secret. "By the by, you know that massive armed force we keep in your nation? They're all high as ****ing kites! Cheers!"



As for why Eamon... who knows. "Hey, brother in law? Feel like raising this kid I had with someone who WASN'T your sister?!" Not really the most reasonable first choice, even if he was born after Rowan's death. Perhaps he didn't feel like he was close enough to anyone else to ask them. Perhaps he thought, because Eamon was "family," it would be a better kept secret?

I've always figured the Mac Tirs, married, with a child already, living in far off isolated Gwaren, would have been a much better choice. Maybe Loghain said no, or Maric hoped to hide Alistair from Loghain.

Perhaps Eamon volunteered, but they seemed to be doing what they could to keep Alistair hushed up. That presumes he knew about the baby before Maric asked him to take him in. Living in Redcliffe, that doesn't seem terribly likely to me.



IMO, Alistair should have been raised similar to Henry Fitzroy or any other notable royal bastard. Given a comfortable life, a minor title or two, and just enough that he wouldn't feel like inciting any kind of rebellion. There's no precedent for that in Ferelden, but there certainly was in the England it's drawn from. Commoner mother or no, he's the king's son. In monarchical societies that means something. Although perhaps in an elected monarchy, with a sort of bottom-up government that blood isn't as big a deal?

[KnightofPhoenix]

LupusYondergirl wrote...
Of course, we're assuming they KNOW about the lyrium addiction. I suspect that even the highest ranks of nobility weren't let in on that little secret. "By the by, you know that massive armed force we keep in your nation? They're all high as ****ing kites! Cheers!"

They actually do know, I think.
The Templar outside of the Denerim chantry talks about it freely. And we have a codex entry about it:

"The templars' power derives from the substance lyrium, a mineral believed to be the raw element of creation. While mages use lyrium in their arcane spells and rituals, templars ingest the primordial mineral to enhance their abilities to resist and dispel magic. Lyrium use is regulated by the Chantry, but some templars suffer from lyrium addiction, the effects of which include paranoia, obsession, and dementia. Templars knowingly submit themselves to this "treatment" in the service of the Order and the Maker."

LupusYondergirl wrote...
IMO, Alistair should have been raised similar to Henry Fitzroy or any other notable royal bastard. Given a comfortable life, a minor title or two, and just enough that he wouldn't feel like inciting any kind of rebellion. There's no precedent for that in Ferelden, but there certainly was in the England it's drawn from. Commoner mother or no, he's the king's son. In monarchical societies that means something. Although perhaps in an elected monarchy, with a sort of bottom-up government that blood isn't as big a deal?

I personally think Alistair coudl have been given to a small freeholder family residing in Denerim, or close and remove him completely from politics.  Seeing how Eamon stopped visiting the Chantry, I doubt Maric cared about learning news about him. And if  he did manage to learn about him in the Chantry, then nothing stops him from doing the same with a freeholder family.

Interesting theories! Thanks for sharing.
One however would think that if they noticed that Cailan was unsuitable, that they would start considering an alternative?
But maybe that's where Loghain comes in. Indeed, his daughter is arranged to be married to Cailan. I am not sure it's easy to call the marriage off.

I don't know. I think someone realized what Eamon could potentially do with Alsitair, so pressured him to do something drastic to essentially get rid of him permanently. Not saying that Eamon didnt' care about Alistair as a person, but I think the implications surrounding him are too big to limit one's interest in him to pure emotional attachement.

As fror Eamon's knowledge of the kid. Perhaps Maric told him to hear advice? Perhaps Eamon has spies in Denerim (and why not?)?  I think it's the former. And that's a gross miscalculation on Maric's part. If he wants to hush out Alistair's existence, really no one should know except maybe Loghain. Perhaps he trusts Eamon way too much, something I also consider to be a miscalculation.

And interesting theory on Orlesian involvement, I didn't think of it.
In the current political - military situation they are in, having a weak king across the border is definitely in their interests. Not sure if Isolde is their proxy and that they had a hand in this (they do have influence in the Chantry I believe). But it's certainly worth pondering on.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:42 .

[LupusYondergirl]

I can't take credit for the theory of Isolde as an agent of Orlais, that's one of Arsinoe de Blassenville's (fanfic writer), but it does seem like they've been keeping an eye on things. I can't imagine Orlais is just washing their hands of Ferelden. I'm sure they have multiple agents in the country. Thirty years is NOTHING in political terms. I would be amazed they weren't biding their time and waiting for the right opportunity to grab back Ferelden.

Loghain, of course, wouldn't want Cailan out of the picture for taking the throne- he wants his daughter to be queen. There could also be nobles who think a weak king would be easily manipulated. And he would be, of course. Just not always to their best interests... it didn't seem to take much to maneuver him into thinking a marriage alliance with Orlais would actually be a good thing.

Wasn't it after Maric died that the landsmeet nearly elected Bryce Cousland? If the Theirin bloodline is a big deal and Cailan still only became king by a small margin, I'd think his unsuitability was pretty obvious to quite a few people by then. Another option carrying that bloodline would have probably given him a greater challenge.



Really, though, Maric's life was one poor decision after another. He's lucky giving Alistair to the wrong guy didn't end up with a bodycount like most of his idiotic blunders.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Indeed, the least Orlais can do is stabilize their south eastern borders, so they can focus on Nevarra fully. Also we know that it was the Orlesians who built the city of Amaranthine, for obvious economic reasons (influence over the waking sea). So yes, Orlais has an interest in Ferelden and I do not think they disengaged fully.

And it's interesting if it was a coalition of nobles who pressured Eamon to do this. I am always of the opinion (which I think is informed) that civil wars don't start out of nowhere. Maybe it was brewing even in that point in time?
I think that Bryce Cousland deciding not to challenge Cailan is a prudent realization that he does not have an overwhelming majority to avoid a possible civil war, so decided to throw his lot with Cailan. But yes I don't think it's any secret to anyone that Cailan is a moron and the codex says that everyone knew it was Anora ruling and they respected her more. Even Eamon says so and he is talking about a beloved Therein.

And agreed on your last statement. Not entirely his fault though. I still fail to see why Moira, in the middle of a war where the Therein symbol is crucial, decided to not teach her son anything, not even horse riding. Ugh.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[Zjarcal]

Ahem, I'll chime in with some thoughts later but I just want to say that I give this thread my official seal of approval.
Quick KoP, post the Phoenix Seal! 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Ahem, I'll chime in with some thoughts later but I just want to say that I give this thread my official seal of approval.
Quick KoP, post the Phoenix Seal! 

[LupusYondergirl]

Ferelden would be an attractive bit of land for most nations. Tons and tons of farmland in the middle and lots of ocean access. It has to look like one big grocery store. I'm sure Orlais took a hit when they lost access to free grain, produce, and fish from their province. That alone would make re-invasion a good idea.



Moira absolutely dropped the ball with raising him. He was in no way, shape, or form ready to take over for her. I'm sure she assumed there would be time to teach him what he needed to know... but that's a dangerous assumption to make when you're actively fighting in a war.

But some things, well... Does he really NEED to be told "hey, you're a guy which means other nations may use attractive women to manipulate you. So if someone you just met starts climbing you like a jungle gym while giving strategy advice perhaps take it with a grain of salt. Especially when they demonstrate applied knowledge of the sort an elf living in a backwater town wouldn't have in a million years?"

Actually, maybe he would need to be told that. Perhaps he did think most people in Ferelden knew extensive details of dwarven history and were masters of strategy?

But then Maric continued the tradition with Cailan, despite seeing firsthand what his naivety cost Ferelden. He wasn't prepared for harsh decisions or leadership any more than his father had been, and again his father died unexpectedly. Even if Maric disregarded everything Loghain told him and honestly believed Orlais really wouldn't try anything else, Cailan wasn't even prepared to lead a peacetime government.

[Sarah1281]

Is that new? I don't think I've ever seen that seal before.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Ferelden would be an attractive bit of land for most nations. Tons and tons of farmland in the middle and lots of ocean access. It has to look like one big grocery store. I'm sure Orlais took a hit when they lost access to free grain, produce, and fish from their province. That alone would make re-invasion a good idea.

It's really the Waking sea that's valuable. It can fit in their strategem in their rivalry witn Nevarra.
Pissed off at Nevarra? Blockade the Waking sea.

LupusYondergirl wrote...
Moira absolutely dropped the ball with raising him. He was in no way, shape, or form ready to take over for her. I'm sure she assumed there would be time to teach him what he needed to know... but that's a dangerous assumption to make when you're actively fighting in a war.

Yes I meant Moira not Rowan, sorry.
Even in peacetime, most feudal monarchies expected their kings to be competent at least in the basics.
They never bothered to teach Maric how to ride a horse in the middle of a war? Or even basic politics?
Does he not realize the importance of his marriage to Rowan, for him to start screwing around?

But eh, same as Calenhad, who nearly brought Ferelden into civil war again, because he couldn't get his priorities straight.

LupusYondergirl wrote...
But then Maric continued the tradition with Cailan, despite seeing firsthand what his naivety cost Ferelden. He wasn't prepared for harsh decisions or leadership any more than his father had been, and again his father died unexpectedly. Even if Maric disregarded everything Loghain told him and honestly believed Orlais really wouldn't try anything else, Cailan wasn't even prepared to lead a peacetime government.

Yea he was a poor father. Question is, why did he invest so much money to train Anora but seemingly made no effort to train Cailan? Yea sure, intelligence can be innate, but that much difference?

At least train him in strategies and warfare, if you can't be bothered to teach him about admnisitration and economy. But no. Too boring.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 07:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Is that new? I don't think I've ever seen that seal before.

It was made yesterday by zjarcal.

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Now I personally believe that it was Eamon who jumped at the opportunity
and volunteered to take Alistair over. Could be due to inexplicable
blind loyalty. I find it more likely however that a cunning  politician
like Eamon was maneuvring to get "political cards". Which leads me to
the theory that Eamon did not want to send Alistair away to the Chantry.
While yes Alistair would get some education there (and brainwashing), a
lyrium addicted and brainwahshed king does not sound like a good idea
and that's assuming that Eamon can demand that the Chantry returns
Alistair to him. I find it unlikely, considering that Duncan had to use
the seldomly used Right of Conscription to get him out. So I personally
think that Eamon sending Alistair to the Chantry as a plan B, hoping
that he can retrieve him later to be unlikely.

I agree with the bolded parts. However, I disagree with the rest. I believe that it was Isolde's nagging that made him send Alistair to the Chantry. Not only were there rumours going about in Redcliffe of that Alistair might be his bastard son, but when Alistair grows up and people start to see that "hey he doesn't look like Eamon at all. Wait a minute, he looks a lot like Maric and King Cailan." more rumours would be flying about Maric having an affair etc, and I think Eamon did not want that.
Eamon tried to play in politics but he's not that good at it IMO. Sure he's got power and is popular enough to call for a Landsmeet, but I think he just gave up on Alistair and started to get closer to Cailan. However, by this time Loghain and Anora had pretty much already moved into the Palace and it became difficult for Eamon to get closer to Cailan.
Personally, I don't believe Loghain had anything to do with sending Alistair to the Chantry. If anything, I would imagine him suggesting that Maric place him with an unkown freeholder family.

And also. Isn't in generally known that Maric plainly sucked as a father? If Alistair is Fiona's child she would not be happy of the choice he made with Alistair.

[Addai]

Maric knew how to ride, he just wasn't very good at it. Horses can sense if they have a nervous rider so it was probably a self-fulfilling insecurity. Oh noes, a protagonist has a flaw!! Moira did educate him, but she was also running for her life, spending time in prison cells etc., and his father was dead.



Other than that, I'm not sure why you want to continue to discuss it. It's obvious you think Maric and his entire family are twits. In fact, it's obvious to me that you just don't like the Dragon Age story much. It's not as politically astute as you think it should be, doesn't focus on the right things, etc. etc. Why do you want us to rewrite the story to suit you?

[Sarah1281]

I believe that it was Isolde's nagging that made him send Alistair to the Chantry.

The thing is, though, that if Eamon really did have some plan to use Alistair for more influence or whatever then it makes no sense to so quickly give up on that just because Isolde wouldn't stop nagging.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...
I agree with the bolded parts. However, I disagree with the rest. I believe that it was Isolde's nagging that made him send Alistair to the Chantry. Not only were there rumours going about in Redcliffe of that Alistair might be his bastard son, but when Alistair grows up and people start to see that "hey he doesn't look like Eamon at all. Wait a minute, he looks a lot like Maric and King Cailan." more rumours would be flying about Maric having an affair etc, and I think Eamon did not want that.
Eamon tried to play in politics but he's not that good at it IMO. Sure he's got power and is popular enough to call for a Landsmeet, but I think he just gave up on Alistair and started to get closer to Cailan. However, by this time Loghain and Anora had pretty much already moved into the Palace and it became difficult for Eamon to get closer to Cailan.
Personally, I don't believe Loghain had anything to do with sending Alistair to the Chantry. If anything, I would imagine him suggesting that Maric place him with an unkown freeholder family.

Maybe I am overestimating Eamon a bit.

But if Eamon was concerned with this (and it's of course a valid concern), does he have alternatives that are less drastic? Like you said, he could just send Alistair to a freeholder family close to Redcliffe and make sure he gets some basic education should he need him. Or send him to an allied bann.

Sending him off to the Chantry, to me, sounds too drastic a measure that I do not believe someone like Eamon would have done unless he was pressured to. I doubt it was Isolde, at least not solely her.
Maybe it wasn't Loghain, but other nobles. It's not like Loghain and Eamon are the only nobles at play.

I am not suggesting that Eamon had a masterplan with Alistair. But I think it's likely he had a plan B or an option of last resort. Sometimes you just want to open up your options.

It is possible that Eamon gave up and decided to focus on Cailan more. It would make him look much less intelligent than I thought he was. So maybe I am expecting too much from him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 07:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Other than that, I'm not sure why you want to continue to discuss it. It's obvious you think Maric and his entire family are twits. In fact, it's obvious to me that you just don't like the Dragon Age story much. It's not as politically astute as you think it should be, doesn't focus on the right things, etc. etc. Why do you want us to rewrite the story to suit you?

Not asking for that. Merely discussing. If you see no point to it, oh well.
I made a thread for it specifically to make sure I don't bother people who don't like it.

[Aeowyn]

But I am really confused over what Eamon really wanted to do with Alistair. He was, what, 10 when he was sent to the Chantry? By this time he should've already begun his education, but from what Alistair says, he didn't seem to be getting any education at all. He slept in the stables with the hounds, always ran around rampant. If Eamon had begun educating him and then interrupted this education to send him to the Chantry, then sure, I can accept that. But it doesn't seem like it, hence my confusion.



Maybe he just needed a quick way of getting rid of him and the Chantry was the first thing that came to mind. Or, he didn't want to risk the freeholder family to put two and two together and find out that they have raised a bastard Prince as their son and now want to take advantage of it? I'm sure the Revered Mother knew about Alistair being Maric's son, but the Chantry can't exactly put someone of their Templars on the throne.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...

But I am really confused over what Eamon really wanted to do with Alistair. He was, what, 10 when he was sent to the Chantry? By this time he should've already begun his education, but from what Alistair says, he didn't seem to be getting any education at all. He slept in the stables with the hounds, always ran around rampant. If Eamon had begun educating him and then interrupted this education to send him to the Chantry, then sure, I can accept that. But it doesn't seem like it, hence my confusion.

Maybe he wants to keep Alistair in ignorance so he can better manipulate him?
Eamon talks about the Thereins as figureheads and emphasizes their importance based on this (and it's not invalid. It's understandable). He doesn't seem to care at all about qualifications. Except "a good heart". Yea, very convincing.

But it does sound confusing yes. You'd think he'd assign him to a knight or something to learn a thing or two. Maybe he was waiting till he becomes older?

[Aeowyn]

Well yes, I agree that it's smart if he wants to easily manipulate Alistair. Let's say though that Alistair wasn't sent to the Chantry, the Blight never happened and he never joined the Grey Wardens. King Cailan still died however. How on earth is Eamon going to convince the nobles of Ferelden that putting Alistair, an un-educated man with little to no knowledge in govenance, on the throne is the right thing?

And yes, I know that we can do that in DAO, but times were different then. Considering the fact that a lot of people wanted to see Bryce Cousland on the throne instead of Cailan, I bet Eamon would have a difficult time with trying to put Alistair on the throne. Especially if Loghain is there.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 30 janvier 2011 - 08:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...

Well yes, I agree that it's smart if he wants to easily manipulate Alistair. Let's say though that Alistair wasn't sent to the Chantry, the Blight never happened and he never joined the Grey Wardens. King Cailan still died however. How on earth is Eamon going to convince the nobles of Ferelden that putting Alistair, an un-educated man with little to no knowledge in govenance, on the throne is the right thing?

And yes, I know that we can do that in DAO, but times were different then. Considering the fact that a lot of people wanted to see Bryce Cousland on the throne instead of Cailan, I bet Eamon would have a difficult time with trying to put Alistair on the throne. Especially if Loghain is there.

It would not have been a small feat, that's for sure. Nor do I believe that he would be succesful necessarily.
But it does sound like something Eamon would do. He puts Ferelden interests as equal to the Thereins on the throne.

I am not sure he would be succesful and really Ferelden is such a mess of a country that any reason can potentially start a civil war. Perhaps Eamon is counting on the Cousland supporting him? Perhaps he can convince many nobles that having a puppet on the throne is a good thing and with him as chancellor, he can secure their interests? I am not saying that Eamon has an elaboretly designed plan for this. Just a vague plan B.

The likely outcome would have been civil war. Like Ignacio said "the civil war brought many old grudges to a boil". I think this civil war would be similar to the one in Origins, for the same core reasons, but different superficial sparks. The Coastlands vs the Bannorn. Not sure where the Couslands would stand in this. Maybe neutral and just stop caring. They always seemed very adamant about Highever's semi-autonomy. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I agree 100% with the OP, and this is something that has nagged at me alot. Giving Alistair up to Eamon, if the intention of doing so was to keep Alistair away from the throne, was about the dumbest thing Maric could do. We already know the Guerrins tend to be pretty politically savy. If Maric had played it smart, he would have given Alistair to a well-to-do commoner family who wanted a child, through a trusted agent, so that it could not be traced back to him. Thus, two things are satisfied: a potentially and politically dangerous bastard child is "disposed of", and Maric's paternal instincts/concern for the child are also satisfied.



But from what I know of Maric, my guess is that he probably didn't want to fully let Alistair go, and put him with Eamon, who was about the closest thing to family he had left, so that he could keep a distant watch over Alistair's upbringing. Which, of course, was stupid, as we know. The only other possibility is that Alistair was kept as insurance in case Cailan died or became incapacitated, which itself is not a terribly stupid idea. Maybe Eamon convinced him to. If so, clever move on Eamon.



But Maric seems more heart than head most of the time. He trusted Eamon far more than he should have. After all, he was giving a bastard son to the brother of the woman on who he may/may not have had an affair on. I'm certain some resentment on Eamon's part might have had a minor role in his treatment of Alistair.



But I think it was really Maric's heart ruling his head on this matter, which was foolish. Had he thought it out more, he could have satisfied both sides of his persona, as I mentioned. Getting rid of Alistair did not have to be a heartless exercise, in fact, giving him to a stable commoner family of good means would have actually been the best and most loving thing Maric could have done. Ferelden would be be more stable for it, and Alistair would have had a much healthier upbringing, and would have probably turned out better for it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Maybe he wants to keep Alistair in ignorance so he can better manipulate him?
Eamon talks about the Thereins as figureheads and emphasizes their importance based on this (and it's not invalid. It's understandable). He doesn't seem to care at all about qualifications. Except "a good heart". Yea, very convincing.

But it does sound confusing yes. You'd think he'd assign him to a knight or something to learn a thing or two. Maybe he was waiting till he becomes older?

Actually, I personally think Eamon's master plan was to keep Alistair pliable, with no self-esteem or opinions, as a potential tool of some sort later. The way Eamon regards Alistair, and the way he treated him when bringing him up, sounds alot like someone wishing to maintain emotional and familial control over him. As we both have mentioned, Eamon could have just as well given him over to a decent family in Redcliffe. But he didn't.

My personal view here is that Eamon wasn't about to throw away what he saw as a valuable political "tool", and wanted to keep him close enough have instil ties, but treat him badly enough that he would grow up confused and emotionally unstable. Through which  his could play puppetmaster of some sort.

Which, for me, as an Alistair fan-girl, makes me despise him all the more.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Agreed, that's what it seems like to me. Him not thinking straight.

The interesting question is whether Maric was the one actively deciding (and being foolish at it). Or him being played around while he was to confused to think properly (also foolish). Or maybe a mix of both. The 2nd and 3rd scenarios have larger implications. They imply Eamon being active and not passive in politics.

Important implications and more and more it seems to me that the roots of civil war were being brewed from that moment. If not earlier.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 09:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Actually, I personally think Eamon's master plan was to keep Alistair pliable, with no self-esteem or opinions, as a potential tool of some sort later. The way Eamon regards Alistair, and the way he treated him when bringing him up, sounds alot like someone wishing to maintain emotional and familial control over him. As we both have mentioned, Eamon could have just as well given him over to a decent family in Redcliffe. But he didn't.

My personal view here is that Eamon wasn't about to throw away what he saw as a valuable political "tool", and wanted to keep him close enough have instil ties, but treat him badly enough that he would grow up confused and emotionally unstable. Through which  his could play puppetmaster of some sort.

Which, for me, as an Alistair fan-girl, makes me despise him all the more.

Definately a possibility and as a fan of my own character Dain, that makes me respect him more

How would you explain Eamon sending Alsitrair away to the Chantry? Do you believe it's something he was forced to do? Or something he preferred doing in the first place?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Agreed, that's what it seems like to me. Him not thinking straight.
The interesting question is whether he was the one actively deciding (and being foolish at it). Or him being played around while he was to confused to think properly (also foolish). Or maybe a mix of both. The 2nd and 3rd scenarios have larger implications. They imply Eamon being active and not passive in politics.
Important implications and more and more it seems to me that the roots of civil war were being brewed from that moment. If not earlier.

I'm pretty sure Maric was swayed. That Eamon has always been active politically is hinted in the codexes. He is a less overt, and more subtle politician, it seems. I base this on the fact that he managed to get away with marrying an Orlesian so soon after the war, managing to bypass the disapproval it generated, as well as Cailan's description of him. Teagan's codex also states he leaves the politics to his brother.

Eamon moves slowly, but with cunning and calculation. We do not know who all Eamon's allies are, but I'd imagine they were likely in support of such a move as well.