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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Definately a possibility and as a fan of my own character Dain, that makes me respect him more

Have I also mentioned that I'm a Dain Fan-Girl as well?

How would you explain Eamon sending Alsitrair away to the Chantry? Do you believe it's something he was forced to do? Or something he preferred doing in the first place?

I think Isolde probably pressed him on it, but didn't really have to press to hard, Eamon was not terribly opposed.

The lyrium additction factor mentioned in another post certainly is a tempting possibility of one of the advantages to having Alistair become a templar. I think also having  heavy religous training would be useful for grooming Alistair as a potential king, since Fereldens are pretty strongly Andrastian. being raised and trained as a "holy warrior" would certainly balance out his bastard status, as well as get more support from the Chantry politicially, since they hold alot of influence.
I personally think the Orlesians do not factor much into this, at least as far as Eamon is concerned. Isolde is really his only big tie to Orlais, and since she supposedly gave up ties with family and country for Eamon, plus the fact she has about the intelligence of livestock and lacks anything resembling logic or pragmatism, I am not inclined she would be a major influence as far as Eamon goes.

Unless of course, the Chantry, which often supports Orlesian interests,  used Isolde as a tool to manipulate Eamon. Which, is not an impossibility, especially if Isolde imported her own Orlesian priestesses.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I'm pretty sure Maric was swayed. That Eamon has always been active politically is hinted in the codexes. He is a less overt, and more subtle politician, it seems. I base this on the fact that he managed to get away with marrying an Orlesian so soon after the war, managing to bypass the disapproval it generated, as well as Cailan's description of him. Teagan's codex also states he leaves the politics to his brother.

Eamon moves slowly, but with cunning and calculation. We do not know who all Eamon's allies are, but I'd imagine they were likely in support of such a move as well.

Eamon's marriage to an Orlesian is risky, which either implies that Eamon felt confident enough to survive and outlast the controversy. Or didn't care at all because he is that much of a helpless romantic. Meh.
But yea Eamon is definitely brighter than Teagan, that's for sure.

Now I am curious if Eamon ever found out how his father died (due to Maric's idiocy).

Eamon is a very interesting character that could have been developped so much more. If only they made reviving him not sound like a waste of time and a chore.

Plus, the way Loghain pronounces "Eamon" sounds close to my name "Ayman" hehehe

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Have I also mentioned that I'm a Dain Fan-Girl as well?

He's a better version of Eamon

I think Isolde probably pressed him on it, but didn't really have to press to hard, Eamon was not terribly opposed.

The lyrium additction factor mentioned in another post certainly is a tempting possibility of one of the advantages to having Alistair become a templar. I think also having  heavy religous training would be useful for grooming Alistair as a potential king, since Fereldens are pretty strongly Andrastian. being raised and trained as a "holy warrior" would certainly balance out his bastard status, as well as get more support from the Chantry politicially, since they hold alot of influence.
I personally think the Orlesians do not factor much into this, at least as far as Eamon is concerned. Isolde is really his only big tie to Orlais, and since she supposedly gave up ties with family and country for Eamon, plus the fact she has about the intelligence of livestock and lacks anything resembling logic or pragmatism, I am not inclined she would be a major influence as far as Eamon goes.

Unless of course, the Chantry, which often supports Orlesian interests,  used Isolde as a tool to manipulate Eamon. Which, is not an impossibility, especially if Isolde imported her own Orlesian priestesses.

Hmmm, this assumes that the Chantry would agree to have one of its Templars as king and technically outside of its jurisdiction. And that Ferelden would agree to having an addict on the throne.

But now that you put in that way, maybe Eamon made a deal with the Chantry? Maybe Orlais was involved too afterall, whether Eamon knew it or not. It is true that religious legitimacy would probably make up for his bastard status. But with Lyrium addiction, it was probably going to be the Chantry controlling Alistair more than Eamon.

And wouldn't it be better for Eamon to continue visiting Alistair and show him that he is the only one outside Chantry walls who gives a damn that he exists? Him stopping to visit him looks like Eamon just gave up and I doubt it was because the child Alistair didn't want to see him. Duh what do you expect, give him time.

You know, this reinforces how tragic Alistair's life is. So many implications and issues that far exceed him in importance revolve around his life or rather the circumstance of his birth. No wonder he turned out a mess.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 09:32 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eamon's marriage to an Orlesian is risky, which either implies that Eamon felt confident enough to survive and outlast the controversy. Or didn't care at all because he is that much of a helpless romantic. Meh.
But yea Eamon is definitely brighter than Teagan, that's for sure.

I doubt Eamon is a helpless romantic. i'm certain he loved Isolde, but was also politically astute enough that he was confident in his ability to ride the storm. No one save commoners seems to care that Eamon is married to an Orlesian, even Loghain didn't bring it up at Landsmeet (and while Loghain may not be politicially clever, he's certainly bright enough not to miss THAT golden nugget to exploit at the Landsmeet) so I am guessing that somehow, Eamon not only managed to ride the storm, but sell his marriage successfully to the other nobles.

Hence, Loghain not using it, probably because he'd know it would have been a fail.

Now I am curious if Eamon ever found out how his father died (due to Maric's idiocy).

It's possible. Though frankly, I'd imagine Rowan kept it quiet, and had suggested maric do the same. Rowan was certainly more competant and smarter than Maric on many fronts, and I think she would have kept that potentially damaging tidbit to herself.

Eamon is a very interesting character that could have been developped so much more. If only they made reviving him not sound like a waste of time and a chore.

Yeah, I agree. I'd have liked to have the option NOT to revive him, and had another option to follow.

Plus, the way Loghain pronounces "Eamon" sounds close to my name "Ayman" hehehe

Awww. Do you get a little "man swoon" everytime Loghain makes his speech, because it sounds like he's saying your name? :lol:

[Sarah1281]

Hmmm, this assumes that the Chantry would agree to have one of its Templars as king and technically outside of its jurisdiction. And that Ferelden would agree to having an addict on the throne.

Since Alistiar wasn't very fond of the Chantry it might not have been a good idea but if they could get their potential king to be as devoted to them as they'd like then I could see the Chantry supporting a templar-king.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He's a better version of Eamon

Totally agree. And he probably cares more about Alistair than Eamon ever did.

Hmmm, this assumes that the Chantry would agree to have one of its Templars as king and technically outside of its jurisdiction. And that Ferelden would agree to having an addict on the throne.

But now that you put in that way, maybe Eamon made a deal with the Chantry? Maybe Orlais was involved too afterall, whether Eamon knew it or not. It is true that religious legitimacy would probably make up for his bastard status. But with Lyrium addiction, it was probably going to be the Chantry controlling Alistair more than Eamon.

The lyrium addiction factor, along with the Warden Joining ritual, seem to be common knowledge to everyone except the Warden. From what I gather in game, most people seem very well disposed towards templars dispite this, and admire them greatly.

So you would have both Eamon and the Chantry pulling Alistair's strings. perhaps Eamon did, in a way, cut a sort of deal with the Chantry. Eamon is a conservative, so his views on things would probably not be very different than the Chantry's. Templar Alistair the King certainly seems like a sort of "comprimise".

And wouldn't it be better for Eamon to continue visiting Alistair and show him that he is the only one outside Chantry walls who gives a damn that he exists? Him stopping to visit him looks like Eamon just gave up and I doubt it was because the child Alistair didn't want to see him. Duh what do you expect, give him time.

Perhaps to break Alistair even more. He has already broken the lad enough, while keeping enough of a paternal facade to keep Alistair clinging to him. Or perhaps the Chantry dissuaded Eamon from continuing to visit Alistair. But yeah. Alistair was a 10 year old kid who has been dumped off and abandoned by the man he thought loved him as a son. What else is the kid gonna do?

You know, this reinforces how tragic Alistair's life is. So many implications and issues that far exceed him in importance revolve around his life or rather the circumstance of his birth. No wonder he turned out a mess.

My thoughts exactly. It is tragic. Simply because of accident of birth, he was born to be used and abused by alot of people with their own agendas, and none of those agendas involve his own well being, or even the well being of the country. It's one of the reasons that I personally like endings where Alistair remains a Warden, finally beyond the reach of Eamon and everyone else. Had he a normal upbringing with a decent family, he would have probably grown up to be more stable and mature, and content with his lot in life. Hell, given his innate personality, he might have joined the Wardens or some similar "heroic" group of his own will, and would have carved out a pretty happy life for himself there.

Which also makes me wonder: What was the real reason Duncan recruited Alistair? If you believe that Fiona is indeed Alistair's real mother, then Duncan would have certainly known from the very start who Alistair's parents were. Alistair states that Duncan knew, though not how. Given what we know of Duncan, were there possible other motives to recruiting Alistair?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I doubt Eamon is a helpless romantic. i'm certain he loved Isolde, but was also politically astute enough that he was confident in his ability to ride the storm. No one save commoners seems to care that Eamon is married to an Orlesian, even Loghain didn't bring it up at Landsmeet (and while Loghain may not be politicially clever, he's certainly bright enough not to miss THAT golden nugget to exploit at the Landsmeet) so I am guessing that somehow, Eamon not only managed to ride the storm, but sell his marriage successfully to the other nobles.

Hence, Loghain not using it, probably because he'd know it would have been a fail.

Yea, I think that's probable. Besides, apparently even commoners ended up respecting Isolde. The guards lament her death in the game (not sure they knew what happened).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It's possible. Though frankly, I'd imagine Rowan kept it quiet, and had suggested maric do the same. Rowan was certainly more competant and smarter than Maric on many fronts, and I think she would have kept that potentially damaging tidbit to herself.

Rowan was defintiely smarter and that's the reason Loghain gave her up. Because Maric really needed her.

And that tidbit would have been a major source of drama there. Eamon is a reasnable man and doens't sound vengeful to me. But he does display moments where he says he cannot forgive someone (Jowan, Loghain).

I wonder what his reaction would have been if he found out that his father who sacrificed everything to save Ferelden and to fight for Maric, died because Maric could not control his dick (and then his heart).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Awww. Do you get a little "man swoon" everytime Loghain makes his speech, because it sounds like he's saying your name? :lol:

No, because it sounds like he's mocking me <_<

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 10:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Totally agree. And he probably cares more about Alistair than Eamon ever did.

Which is saying a lot, considering that Dain doesn't care that much lol
He is too serious that he barely tolerates Alistair's senseof humour.

I like to imagine that Dain had that problem with Bhelen too at some point. Before of course, Bhelen's Xanatos Gambit.

The lyrium addiction factor, along with the Warden Joining ritual, seem to be common knowledge to everyone except the Warden. From what I gather in game, most people seem very well disposed towards templars dispite this, and admire them greatly.

So you would have both Eamon and the Chantry pulling Alistair's strings. perhaps Eamon did, in a way, cut a sort of deal with the Chantry. Eamon is a conservative, so his views on things would probably not be very different than the Chantry's. Templar Alistair the King certainly seems like a sort of "comprimise".

The Templars are admired by the populace.
Codex:
"While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's
control over magic, the people of Thedas see them as saviors and holy
warriors, champions of all that is good, armed with piety enough to
protect the world from the ravages of foul magic."

And the Chantry is definitely involved in politics and atualy have a large say in the Landsmeet. After Anora, it has the most important vote. I could see that happening yea. Isolde , being very pious, I presume was in contact with Orlesian Chantry sisters? 

In Leliana's Song, that mother who saved Leliana was far from being an innocent chantry mother either.
Heck, it's possible it's infected with Orlesian bards.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Perhaps to break Alistair even more. He has already broken the lad enough, while keeping enough of a paternal facade to keep Alistair clinging to him. Or perhaps the Chantry dissuaded Eamon from continuing to visit Alistair. But yeah. Alistair was a 10 year old kid who has been dumped off and abandoned by the man he thought loved him as a son. What else is the kid gonna do?

I'd think it would be smarter for Eamon to make Alistair realize he is the only person who will ever care for him.
Maybe leave him a month or so, then come back with his mother's amulet. Come back frequently, then leave for a month or two, make him miss you. Then come back...etc. I am not a psychologist, but it sounds like a more efficient method. 

My thoughts exactly. It is tragic. Simply because of accident of birth, he was born to be used and abused by alot of people with their own agendas, and none of those agendas involve his own well being, or even the well being of the country. It's one of the reasons that I personally like endings where Alistair remains a Warden, finally beyond the reach of Eamon and everyone else. Had he a normal upbringing with a decent family, he would have probably grown up to be more stable and mature, and content with his lot in life. Hell, given his innate personality, he might have joined the Wardens or some similar "heroic" group of his own will, and would have carved out a pretty happy life for himself there.

Agreed. Unlike Cailan, Alistair is not a brat and I think he would have been a fine lad. Maybe not destined for greatness. But he  wouldn't care anyways.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Which also makes me wonder: What was the real reason Duncan recruited Alistair? If you believe that Fiona is indeed Alistair's real mother, then Duncan would have certainly known from the very start who Alistair's parents were. Alistair states that Duncan knew, though not how. Given what we know of Duncan, were there possible other motives to recruiting Alistair?

I believe that Duncan is a cunning and shrewd inidividual (and  I respect him for that). I really really doubt that Duncan used his right of conscription that he seldom resorts to, to anger the Chantry and recruit someone that does not display any extraordinary skill or trait to warrant such a determination.

Duncan, imo, must have known who Alistair is. And when he saw Cailan and realized how much of a fool he is, he proceeded to secure plan B, a potential heir to the throne. I do not think Duncan approves of being political, but when you have a king like Cailan, getting involved in politics is necessary and Duncan does not shirk from what he ought to percieve as necessary.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 10:30 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, I think that's probable. Besides, apparently even commoners ended up respecting Isolde. The guards lament her death in the game (not sure they knew what happened).

And given the clues in Witch Hunt, unless Redcliffe is destroyed, it seems that Eamon, no matter who you put on the throne, is getting bolder and more active in politics.

Rowan was defintiely smarter and that's the reason Loghain gave her up. Because Maric really needed her.

This was actually one of my favorite parts of the book, and certainly the best romance in my opinion in TST. It was incredibly wrenching, because this move ended up bringing both of them personal heartache, but despite this, both agreed it was the best idea, and put aside their love for the general interests of the country. And both cared about Maric's success as a king. Rowan is certainly one of my favorite characters in Dragon Age.

And that tidbit would have been a major source of drama there. Eamon is a reasnable man and doens't sound vengeful to me. But he does display moments where he says he cannot forgive someone (Jowan, Loghain).

Yes. And even though they were seperated for a few years. I'm guessing Rowan knew her brother well enough that she decided not to tell him, or anyone else. I think only Loghain, maric, and Rowan knew the full story, and Loghain and Rowan wisely decided it should not see the light of day. And both had enough influence over maric to keep him from babbling about it in a fit of guilt.

I wonder what his reaction would have been if he found out that his father who sacrificed everything to save Ferelden and to fight for Maric, died because Maric could not control his dick (and then his heart).

I think there would have been alot of animosity, and Eamon might even think, and convince others, that Maric was not fit to rule, and might have made more direct maneuvers against Maric. Rowan, no doubt forsaw this possibility, and given the fragile state of the country, probably fiddled the truth quite a bit.

I certainly think he was not terribly thrilled with Maric for fathering a bastard child, whether Rowan was still alive or not. I think it does play some part in Eamon's rather cold attitude towards Alistair.

No, because it sounds like he's mocking me <_<

LOL! It's a good thing you are a sober person, else the Landsmeet might trigger some bizarre paranoia.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Hmmm, this assumes that the Chantry would agree to have one of its Templars as king and technically outside of its jurisdiction. And that Ferelden would agree to having an addict on the throne.

Since Alistiar wasn't very fond of the Chantry it might not have been a good idea but if they could get their potential king to be as devoted to them as they'd like then I could see the Chantry supporting a templar-king.

Wouldn't that set too large a precedent?
I mean it makes more sense if it's Alistair, because he is a Therein. But I am nto sure the Chantry would want an average joe Tempar on the throne.

The Templars can and do get involved in politics, we know this from DA2. But they still resort to using non-Templar puppets.

Alistair is an extra-ordinary case because of his descent. So I can see the Chantry making an "exception".

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Hmmm, this assumes that the Chantry would agree to have one of its Templars as king and technically outside of its jurisdiction. And that Ferelden would agree to having an addict on the throne.

Since Alistiar wasn't very fond of the Chantry it might not have been a good idea but if they could get their potential king to be as devoted to them as they'd like then I could see the Chantry supporting a templar-king.

Wouldn't that set too large a precedent?
I mean it makes more sense if it's Alistair, because he is a Therein. But I am nto sure the Chantry would want an average joe Tempar on the throne.

The Templars can and do get involved in politics, we know this from DA2. But they still resort to using non-Templar puppets.

Alistair is an extra-ordinary case because of his descent. So I can see the Chantry making an "exception".

No one would accept an average templar as their king or any other noble. They'd have to already have the bloodline. Take Irminric for example. Assuming he recovers sufficiently and Alfstanna were to die without an heir, would the Chantry support a bann who was so devoted to their interests and liable to always vote with them? It wouldn't give everyday templars any ideas as the promotion only happens based on a bloodline that's already there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
This was actually one of my favorite parts of the book, and certainly the best romance in my opinion in TST. It was incredibly wrenching, because this move ended up bringing both of them personal heartache, but despite this, both agreed it was the best idea, and put aside their love for the general interests of the country. And both cared about Maric's success as a king. Rowan is certainly one of my favorite characters in Dragon Age.

Best romance when compared to the annoying "romance" between Maric and Katriel, yea.
But overall, the execution of the story was poor. The only way I could enjoy it is to just focus on Loghain and pretend he is the protagonist, with a blumbling sidekick.

I think there would have been alot of animosity, and Eamon might even think, and convince others, that Maric was not fit to rule, and might have made more direct maneuvers against Maric. Rowan, no doubt forsaw this possibility, and given the fragile state of the country, probably fiddled the truth quite a bit.

I certainly think he was not terribly thrilled with Maric for fathering a bastard child, whether Rowan was still alive or not. I think it does play some part in Eamon's rather cold attitude towards Alistair.

This really depends on how we view Eamon. Whether his loyalty to the Therin name, or at least his belief that the Thereins are necessary, to be genuine. Or a lie to get a weak king on the throne.

I personally think it's the former. Eamon is hardly disinterested and unambitious, but I do believe that he sincerily thinks that the Thereins are the best and only hope for Ferelden. Something I can understand, but disagree with. 

So it's my belief that Eamon would have probably been bitter towards Maric and that may have very well reflected on his treatement of Alistair. But I do not think he would openly try to undermine the Therein family. Maybe put one Therein instead of the other, but it has to be a Therein figurehead.

LOL! It's a good thing you are a sober person, else the Landsmeet might trigger some bizarre paranoia.

Or just make me want to kill him lol

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 10:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
No one would accept an average templar as their king or any other noble. They'd have to already have the bloodline. Take Irminric for example. Assuming he recovers sufficiently and Alfstanna were to die without an heir, would the Chantry support a bann who was so devoted to their interests and liable to always vote with them? It wouldn't give everyday templars any ideas as the promotion only happens based on a bloodline that's already there.

Yea, I'd think it's possible.

What about the vows? I mean, they have to produce an heir somehow. 

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
No one would accept an average templar as their king or any other noble. They'd have to already have the bloodline. Take Irminric for example. Assuming he recovers sufficiently and Alfstanna were to die without an heir, would the Chantry support a bann who was so devoted to their interests and liable to always vote with them? It wouldn't give everyday templars any ideas as the promotion only happens based on a bloodline that's already there.

Yea, I'd think it's possible.

What about the vows? I mean, they have to produce an heir somehow. 

Wesley from DA2 is a templar and married to party-member Aveline. I think marriage implies templars can have sex, maybe they just have vows saying they won't have sex outside of marriage? It would certainly cut down on the risk of bastard children for a templar-king. I know in DA:O it really seems like they take vows of chastity but either they phrased the templar vows wrong or they changed their minds.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Wesley from DA2 is a templar and married to party-member Aveline. I think marriage implies templars can have sex, maybe they just have vows saying they won't have sex outside of marriage? It would certainly cut down on the risk of bastard children for a templar-king. I know in DA:O it really seems like they take vows of chastity but either they phrased the templar vows wrong or they changed their minds.

Huh, I see.

And here I thought that Templar that the desire demon was possessing, didnt have a family because it wasn't allowed.
Does it depend on country? Or assignement?

[LupusYondergirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Wesley from DA2 is a templar and married to party-member Aveline. I think marriage implies templars can have sex, maybe they just have vows saying they won't have sex outside of marriage? It would certainly cut down on the risk of bastard children for a templar-king. I know in DA:O it really seems like they take vows of chastity but either they phrased the templar vows wrong or they changed their minds.

Huh, I see.

And here I thought that Templar that the desire demon was possessing, didnt have a family because it wasn't allowed.
Does it depend on country? Or assignement?

I believe what Gaider said was that they have to have chantry permission and, because they are completely unpaid, some other means of supporting their family.  Either inherited money or marrying someone monied, presumably.
Also, the  Chantry does not necessarily take family status into account for assignments.  So if you've been in Gwaren for a decade, and have a wife and kid in Gwaren, there's nothing to stop them from reassigning you to the Circle of Magi or something.

[Sarah1281]

It would certainly be difficult for that one templar in particular who was ensnared by the desire demon to get a family if he had been on a long-term assignment to the circle tower.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is saying a lot, considering that Dain doesn't care that much lol

I know. That's what's so sad! At least Dain will take better care of his ticket to power than Eamon ever did.

And the Chantry is definitely involved in politics and atualy have a large say in her Landsmeet. After Anora, it has the most important vote. I could see that happening yea. Isolde , being very pious, I presume was in contact with Orlesian Chantry sisters? 

In Leliana's Song, that mother who saved Leliana was far from being an innocent chantry mother either.
Heck, it's possible it's infected with Orlesian bards.

There is no doubt in my mind that Orlais and the Chantry are heavily intertwinned in their interests, and thus, they serve one another alot of times when they are pursuing their interests. Which is another reason I think the Chantry needs to be weakened. They really are, when you get right down to it, the Orlsian religous vanguard. So long as the Chantry remains as is, Orlais will remain a major power and influence in Thedas, countered only by the Tevinter and the Imperial Chantry.

I'd think it would be smarter for Eamon to make Alistair realize he is the only person who will ever care for him.
Maybe leave him a month or so, then come back with his mother's amulet. Come back frequently, then leave for a month or two, make him miss you. Then come back...etc. I am not a psychologist, but it sounds like a more efficient method. 

Oh, it certainly would be much more effective, that's for damned sure. Like I said, maybe the Chantry discouraged him from doing so. But then again, of course, perhaps Eamon wanted him emotionally broken completely. Perhaps having a father figure who cared might give Alistair too much support. perhaps Eamon wanted the Chantry to break him further before coming back and soothing him at a later date.

Agreed. Unlike Cailan, Alistair is not a brat and I think he would have been a fine lad. Maybe not destined for greatness. But he  wouldn't care anyways.

Agreed. He wouldn't care, as glory and greatness aren't really his thing. He's happiest when he is doing something he thinks will make a difference, but isn't really interested in leading the charge. He really just needed to find his own niche, so to speak.

I believe that Duncan is a cunning and shrewd inidividual (and  I respect him for that). I really really doubt that Duncan used his right of conscription that he seldom resorts to, to anger the Chantry and recruit someone that does not display any extraordinary skill or trait to warrant such a determination.

True. Alistair wasn't the best fighter in the tournament, but perhaps something else about him made Duncan decide he was a good prospect for the Wardens. Good enough to risk pissing off the Chantry.

Duncan, imo, must have known who Alistair is. And when he saw Cailan and realized how much of a fool he is, he proceeded to secure plan B, a potential heir to the throne. I do not think Duncan approves of being political, but when you have a king like Cailan, getting involved in politics is necessary and Duncan does not shirk from what he ought to percieve as necessary.

This is very likely. Though I remember that Gaider said Duncan himself would not have put Alistair on the throne at Landsmeet. But the situation at Landsmeet was different, in that you had a competant, potential alternative in Anora, and thus, decided it was unecessary to place him there. Under another scenario, i could see Duncan deciding to put Alistair on the throne, especially if Cailan, having miraculously not gotten everyone killed at Ostagar, continued to act like a glory-driven idiot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I know. That's what's so sad! At least Dain will take better care of his ticket to power than Eamon ever did.

I just need to post it

Badassnessery

There is no doubt in my mind that Orlais and the Chantry are heavily intertwinned in their interests, and thus, they serve one another alot of times when they are pursuing their interests. Which is another reason I think the Chantry needs to be weakened. They really are, when you get right down to it, the Orlsian religous vanguard. So long as the Chantry remains as is, Orlais will remain a major power and influence in Thedas, countered only by the Tevinter and the Imperial Chantry.

Yep, that featured in my rational regarding the Sacred Ashes. Could be used to weaken Orlesian's "monopoly of religion". 

This is very likely. Though I remember that Gaider said Duncan himself would not have put Alistair on the throne at Landsmeet. But the situation at Landsmeet was different, in that you had a competant, potential alternative in Anora, and thus, decided it was unecessary to place him there. Under another scenario, i could see Duncan deciding to put Alistair on the throne, especially if Cailan, having miraculously not gotten everyone killed at Ostagar, continued to act like a glory-driven idiot.

True. I think it was only Duncan have a plan B. 
I think he was the one who concinved Cailan to send Alsitair to the tower. And only said the king said so because Duncan never treated Alistair based on his lineage and it's something Alistair loved. If he saw that Duncan was thinking of Alsitair the royal bastard and not him the warden, he would have been hurt.

And agreed with everything else.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 11:09 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This really depends on how we view Eamon. Whether his loyalty to the Therin name, or at least his belief that the Thereins are necessary, to be genuine. Or a lie to get a weak king on the throne.

I personally think it's the former. Eamon is hardly disinterested and unambitious, but I do believe that he sincerily thinks that the Thereins are the best and only hope for Ferelden. Something I can understand, but disagree with.  [/quote]

I think it's a bit of both, really. Eamon is a conservative, and I think he genuinely feels that Therins are the best idea for Ferelden. But seeing how he still manages to stick around and try to influence Anora, despite giving disapproval at the choice, shows that he can at least overcome this view for short term purposes. Long term, however, given the situation in Witch Hunt, Eamon probably will end up working against Anora.

Alistair being a Therin is half of Eamon's reason to out him on the throne, the other half being he wants an easily manipulated figurehead.

[quote]So it's my belief that Eamon would have probably been bitter towards Maric and that may have very well reflected on his treatement of Alistair. But I do not think he would openly try to undermine the Therein family. Maybe put one Therein instead of the other, but it has to be a Therein figurehead.
[quote]

Possibly. Though I think it would have been  more personal and political. Had he known about Maric's foolishness, it might have been a case where he felt two possible interests collided.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 30 janvier 2011 - 11:03 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I just need to post it

Badassnessery

Do it! YESSSSSS! Dain the evil puppetmaster! He's my favorite of your characters. Even if he uses poor Alistair to further his own wicked goals! At least he will most likely make Alistair feel great while doing it!

Yep, that featured in my rational regarding the Sacred Ashes. Could be used to weaken Orlesian's "monopoly of religion". 

Yeah, it actually is the best reason I've seen for perserving the ashes. A possible weapon to be used for a sort of "reformation" and split from the main Chantry, instead having one focused and influenced by your own country.

True. I think it was only Duncan have a plan B. 
I think he was the one who concinved Cailan to send Alsitair to the tower. And only said the king said so because Duncan never treated Alistair based on his lineage and it's something Alistair loved. If he saw that Duncan was thinking of Alsitair the royal bastard and not him the warden, he would have been hurt.

That's actually quite likely. Duncan certainly would have little problem convincing Cailan, moron that he was. he could simply say: "You know, your majesty, it might be a good idea to send your brother to the tower. You know, so he doesn't steal your glory on the battlefield."

Insta-sell.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Possibly. Though I think it would have been  more personal and political. Had he known about Maric's foolishness, it might have been a case where he felt two possible interests collided.

Yea but would he try to undermine Maric's rule? I don't now.
I think he might resent him, and might try to weaken his hold by doing what he is seemingly doing in WH.
But I don't think he'd rise up against Maric. It would have been a bit foolhardy in any case. Rising up against Cailan I could see, but not Maric.

Of course the ironic tragedy is that Eamon's fixation on family line is coupled by the elimination of his own line. Connor is either dead or a mage, Isolde is either dead or dies in childbirth eventually. Poor dude, his life is miserable.  Teagan will probably not get married and if he does, he'll probably die when his child is still young and vulnerable.

All these catastrophies on everyone in DA, that so conveniently seem to be pointing to one direction, really adds to the Chantry's argument that the Maker is just pissed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Do it! YESSSSSS! Dain the evil puppetmaster! He's my favorite of your characters. Even if he uses poor Alistair to further his own wicked goals! At least he will most likely make Alistair feel great while doing it!

Being a puppet never felt so good.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That's actually quite likely. Duncan certainly would have little problem convincing Cailan, moron that he was. he could simply say: "You know, your majesty, it might be a good idea to send your brother to the tower. You know, so he doesn't steal your glory on the battlefield."

Insta-sell.

Yea, that's how I imagine it. With Loghain facepalming somewhere.
I like how Duncan, in a politically correct and  "neutral" fashion" subtly hints at how he finds Cailan "over-confident"  to say the least.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea but would he try to undermine Maric's rule? I don't now.
I think he might resent him, and might try to weaken his hold by doing what he is seemingly doing in WH.
But I don't think he'd rise up against Maric. It would have been a bit foolhardy in any case. Rising up against Cailan I could see, but not Maric.

Oh, I wasn't refering to out and out revolt. I was thinking, after Rowan dies, to start maneuvering more agressively in the political sense. To weaken Maric, as well as maybe hold more influence over his heir.

Of course the ironic tragedy is that Eamon's fixation on family line is coupled by the elimination of his own line. Connor is either dead or a mage, Isolde is either dead or dies in childbirth eventually. Poor dude, his life is miserable.  Teagan will probably not get married and if he does, he'll probably die when his child is still young and vulnerable.

Teagan can actually get married. He can either end up marrying Caitlyn or Bella, both commoners. Not sure how this would affect his heirs politically if he became Arl when Eamon dies.

All these catastrophies on everyone in DA, that so conveniently seem to be pointing to one direction, really adds to the Chantry's argument that the Maker is just pissed.

What's interesting is that it seems both politicially and genetically, the three main bloodlines responsible for the liberation of Ferelden will possibly die out within a generation, all around the same time. Something big is definitely coming around the corner, this we know.

Maybe with what DA2 may bring, we will see the city streets of Thedas crowded with doomsayers carrying signs "The Maker is watching, and boy is he pissed, the End is nigh!". Complete with the formation of multiple doomsday cults everywhere, poisoned punch bowls included.

Perhaps the real apocolypse isn't the Blight cycle after all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Being a puppet never felt so good.

That's what I like to hear.

Yea, that's how I imagine it. With Loghain facepalming somewhere.

 

To be honest, given that Cailan has been on the throne for five years, I don't understand why Loghain doesn't have a permanent dent on his forehead in the shape of his palm. I also wonder how Loghain managed to keep his thick, lusterous locks, when being around Cailan for five years as your king would ressult in most people pulling their hair out until bald.

I like how Duncan, in a politically correct and  "neutral" fashion" subtly hints at how he finds Cailan "over-confident"  to say the least.

I also like how he corrects you when you call the king a fool. Like he's trying to tell you "Yes, we know, but he is the Warden's number one fan, so can you please STFU and pretend to think he's awesome, don't derail this gravy train".

Duncan is just so damned awesome.