167 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Teagan can actually get married. He can either end up marrying Caitlyn or Bella, both commoners. Not sure how this would affect his heirs politically if he became Arl when Eamon dies.

Either he will be sterile, or they both wil be sterile or die in child birth. Or something will happen to make sure the Guerreins die out. Besides seeing how Teagan is unimpressive politically, I doubt he'll be able to raise his child properly to bear the responsability of the family. 

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
What's interesting is that it seems both politicially and genetically, the three main bloodlines responsible for the liberation of Ferelden will possibly die out within a generation, all around the same time. Something big is definitely coming around the corner, this we know.

Ha, perfect Orlesian propaganda. "This is what happens to thsoe who oppose us!" kind of thing.
But yea it's peculiar. Add to that the Howes who will also probably die out soon or be relatively weakened.
Couslands also and only Fergus is alive. Like Teagan I don't expect much from him.

I wonder how those families are relevent to whatever it is that's happening. Maybe they are only rlevent in so far as them dying out creates a power vacuum and potential chaos.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Perhaps the real apocolypse isn't the Blight cycle after all.

The change Morrigan talked about. Chaos sometimes allows for creativity. Creative destructon and maybe that's what happening. Even DA2 will leave Thedas on the brink of war. 
DA3: World war Thedas! Cool.

And imagine Arcturus and Morrigan taking advantage of all this to secure their dominion and that of their son on the continent (and beyond)
Probably won't happen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
To be honest, given that Cailan has been on the throne for five years, I don't understand why Loghain doesn't have a permanent dent on his forehead in the shape of his palm. I also wonder how Loghain managed to keep his thick, lusterous locks, when being around Cailan for five years as your king would ressult in most people pulling their hair out until bald.

I am still amazed at how Loghain actually thought Cailan was not completely hopeless at Ostagar. He should have realized it a long time ago.

I also like how he corrects you when you call the king a fool. Like he's trying to tell you "Yes, we know, but he is the Warden's number one fan, so can you please STFU and pretend to think he's awesome, don't derail this gravy train".

Duncan is just so damned awesome.

Yea he is.
Still made some rather big mistakes. But well The Beard chose him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Either he will be sterile, or they both wil be sterile or die in child birth. Or something will happen to make sure the Guerreins die out. Besides seeing how Teagan is unimpressive politically, I doubt he'll be able to raise his child properly to bear the responsability of the family. 

yeah. Teagan is just too apolitical. He even dreads losing Connor and Eamon because it means he will have to take over, as well as the fact he loves his family. He's suited more for the Bannhood of an insiginfigant bannorn.

Ha, perfect Orlesian propaganda. "This is what happens to thsoe who oppose us!" kind of thing.
But yea it's peculiar. Add to that the Howes who will also probably die out soon or be relatively weakened.
Couslands also and only Fergus is alive. Like Teagan I don't expect much from him.

LOL! Yeah. Celene totally would not miss an opportunity to capitalize on that one!

I wonder how those families are relevent to whatever it is that's happening. Maybe they are only rlevent in so far as them dying out creates a power vacuum and potential chaos.

Remember, this is a fantasy setting. Symbolism plays a far bigger part in the writing than you might think. The collapse of the five most powerful families in Ferelden certainly would create absolute political chaos, certainly, which sets up the breeding ground for another story. Ferelden, perhaps the most backwards country in Thedas, is also the most signifigant. The fifth blight is started/stopped in Ferelden within a couple of years. The architect lives under there. Flemmeth and Morrigan are there. Hawke, who will supposedly be the absolute shyte in Thedas, comes from there, as did Andrastism.

The death of the three major families who liberated Ferelden seems to signify a symblic death/break from it's pre-Maric hisotry. Or the death of their saviors, no longer having figureheads.

I do not think the Howe and Cousland lines will die out, since Nathaniel has his sister who he gives the land to, and Fergus will most likely remarry and breed again. But I think these two families might see a dimminishment in power and importance.

The change Morrigan talked about. Chaos sometimes allows for creativity. Creative destructon and maybe that's what happening. Even DA2 will leave Thedas on the brink of war. 
DA3: World war Thedas! Cool.

Which is why I bow to chaos, it comes when an old order becomes stagnant and just isn't working to tear it down so the seeds of a new order can be built. It stimulates necessity, thus, creativity and advancement once everything settles, which it inevitably does.

And imagine Arcturus and Morrigan taking advantage of all this to secure their dominion and that of their son on the continent (and beyond)
Probably won't happen.

You can still dream. And write fan fics.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am still amazed at how Loghain actually thought Cailan was not completely hopeless at Ostagar. He should have realized it a long time ago.

Probably his sentiments toward Maric, not being able to bring himself to believe his best friend's son could be such a waste of space. Holding out on that last hope that Cailan might miraculously generate a brain cell and listen to reason.

But yeah, I personally believe Loghain should have had Cailan assassinated well before Ostagar, and forced Duncan to deal with him instead.

Yea he is.
Still made some rather big mistakes. But well The Beard chose him.

It is not for us to fathom the mysterious ways of The Beard. Only that we accept The Beard regardless. :innocent:

[Eber]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That's actually quite likely. Duncan certainly would have little problem convincing Cailan, moron that he was. he could simply say: "You know, your majesty, it might be a good idea to send your brother to the tower. You know, so he doesn't steal your glory on the battlefield."

Insta-sell. {smilie}

Yea, that's how I imagine it. With Loghain facepalming somewhere. I like how Duncan, in a politically correct and "neutral" fashion" subtly hints at how he finds Cailan "over-confident" to say the least.

It's also how Eamon imagines it.

Eamon: Alistair is King Maric's illegitimate son. He is Cailan's half-brother and has a claim to Ferelden's throne.
Warden: That explains a lot. How fortuitous he survived Ostagar.
Eamon: I imagine Duncan kept Alistair out of the battle for this very reason.

This post wake up conversations supports the idea that Eamon kept Alistair around as a potential tool in my opinion. If he never considered using Alistair in such a way he sure thinks quick on his feet after being revived. Teagan is hesitant to accept the idea but it's already firm in Eamon's mind. Eamon knows what must be done. Perhaps because he had considered this eventuality years before.

Modifié par Eber, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Actually, Maric would have been better off handing Alistair over to Teagan instead of Eamon, if he felt so compelled to give Alistair to the inlaws. Teagan would have actually cared about the kid, and probably handed him over to one of his loyal freeholder families, thus solving the problem both rationally and humanely. Teagan is the only one who ever remotely shows concern for Alistair as a person as opposed to a tool or nuisance in that family.



Probably more reason, I think, that Eamon encouraged Maric to hand him over.

[Sarah1281]

Teagan's, what, 38? That would make him about 17 when Alistair was born versus the 25-year-old Eamon. I can see Maric not wanting to hand his son off to a teenager.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Teagan's, what, 38? That would make him about 17 when Alistair was born versus the 25-year-old Eamon. I can see Maric not wanting to hand his son off to a teenager.

Depends on what you believe Alistair's age is, and who his real mother was.

[Sarah1281]

What's the youngest he could conceivably be? I tend to go with 21 but I really can't see him as younger than 19.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What's the youngest he could conceivably be? I tend to go with 21 but I really can't see him as younger than 19.

Eamon's age is also a bit screwy. Supposedly, Loghain is about 50, so Eamon has to be younger. How much younger, I do not know, since supposedly, Eamon fought at some point in the rebellion. The toolset is not very reliable here, since it pegs Alistair as being much older, the original concept. It's hard to really pin ages accurately. 19 seems about right. Teagan seems a bit older than 38, though.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eber wrote...
This post wake up conversations supports the idea that Eamon kept Alistair around as a potential tool in my opinion. If he never considered using Alistair in such a way he sure thinks quick on his feet after being revived. Teagan is hesitant to accept the idea but it's already firm in Eamon's mind. Eamon knows what must be done. Perhaps because he had considered this eventuality years before.

Yes, it did surprise me how quickly he is back on his feet after the disaster and capable of being reasonable and rational. Surely there is an element of pre-meditation here. Which is natural, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Alistair is.

I am still undecisive however when it comes to sending Alistair to the Chantry. Either he planned this, like what Skadi suggested and supported. Or he was pressured to, which was the theory I leaned more torwards before Skadi convinced me of the validity of her theory. But I think we reached a consensus that Eamon listening to his wife solely and acting on it to be unlikely.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 01:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mezzil wrote...
According to David Gaider that if Duncan had survived, he would be against making Alistair king. Then he would leave Ferelden to wait out in Orlais with the other Wardens.

The original reason Duncan recruits Alistair is in the toolset. He felt sorry for him because Duncan was a bastard from a noble family like him. DG changed all this later in a book though.

He would have left due to a military defeat and because militarily speaking it's the smart thing to do instead of waste ressources to put Alistair on the throne. And like Skadi said, Duncan may reject the idea if he thinks Anora is competent herself. Like I said before, it doesn't mean Duncan had any immediate plans with Alistair. I find it hard to believe that someone of his intellgience was indifferent to what Alistair is and the implications behind that. And as Eber quoted, this is a sentiment shared by Eamon.  

The toolset is not that reliable. Many things get cut or change. I am not denying the possibility that Duncan could have felt sorry for him. But for him to use the right of conscription to ****** off the Chantry, something he is very careful about avoiding, because he felt sorry for someone, is OOC imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 02:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mezzil wrote...
DG gave his opinion about what Duncan would say when Eamon suggests putting Alistair forward as king.   It's not even known that Anora is an option at that point.

Eamon doesn't know Duncan. He can't know why Duncan kept Alistair out of the battle. That comment tells you more about Eamon than anything about Duncan.

Yes, but is it due to Duncan not wanting to waste his time in Ferelden and retreat to Orlais to prepare? Or due to a rejection in principle of Alistair or a Warden being king? I think it's the former, but hey it's possible.

Duncan's plan to have Alistair in the tower was before a battle he thought he had a good chance of winning (I presume). After the disaster of Ostagar, if he survived it, obviously all his calculations have to be reset.

I would find it hard to believe that Duncan kept Alistair out of the battle because he had a soft spot for him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mezzil wrote...

Riordan who actually has known Duncan since their Joining says that Duncan always had a soft spot for his new recruits. It was the only weakness he allowed himself to have.

Yes, that doesn't really mean that in a battle plan, he is going to purposely leave the recruits out of harms way.
If anything, he should conserve his veterans, and save them to whenever the Archdemon inevitably appears.

I don't know. I find it unconvicing that Duncan was only being soft hearted and didn't have a plan. I could be wrong though.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, that doesn't really mean that in a battle plan, he is going to purposely leave the recruits out of harms way.
If anything, he should conserve his veterans, and save them to whenever the Archdemon inevitably appears.

I don't know. I find it unconvicing that Duncan was only being soft hearted and didn't have a plan. I could be wrong though.

I doubt it. I think it's possible Duncan did genuinely have a soft spot for Alistair, and liked him. But he was far too much a pragmatist to allow his sentiments to rule him, and I believe that the primary descisions were based entirely on pragmatic reasons, which, as a benefit, also allows his soft spot to be fulfilled. But they wouldn't be the motivator.

Had Duncan survived, it might all be moot, since he'd have taken Alistair to Orlais with the Warden and let Ferelden deal on it's own. But I think if somehow he stayed, he would have probably taken Anora over Alistair as king.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
What's interesting is that it seems both politicially and genetically, the three main bloodlines responsible for the liberation of Ferelden will possibly die out within a generation, all around the same time. Something big is definitely coming around the corner, this we know.

Ha, perfect Orlesian propaganda. "This is what happens to thsoe who oppose us!" kind of thing.
But yea it's peculiar. Add to that the Howes who will also probably die out soon or be relatively weakened.
Couslands also and only Fergus is alive. Like Teagan I don't expect much from him.

I wonder how those families are relevent to whatever it is that's happening. Maybe they are only rlevent in so far as them dying out creates a power vacuum and potential chaos.

And I think a place like Ferelden is easy to fall under a state of chaos, especially considering that then they would have no uniting figure. What would be interesting to see is if it leads to a revolution and a new form of government arises out of it. Perhaps it could lead to the start of what we would consider a modern-day democracy.

But assuming they don't die out, I definitely see them losing clout, as I don't think they're what their relatives were.
For the Guerrins - Connor (or Rowan) is a mage and therefore out of the equation; Teagan was more or less a benchwarmer for Eamon, and I don't see him stepping up to the plate.
Couslands - I think a handful of people mention that the Warden was more the leader than Fergus, and was more likely to take the Teyrn. I don't think it was an accident that Fergus was chosen instead of the Warden to head to Ostagar. It's a tossup as to whether or not he would remarry and have another child. I could see it happening and I could also not see it happening.
Monarchs (Thereins/Mac Tirs) - I think it's suggested in the game well enough that the monarchs aren't producing any children. Cailan and Anora weren't generating one, and the Wardens have a hard time conceiving. (OOU this also gives the Devs an outlet to make your choice count while not making your choice worth anything, giving them a blank slate and a reunion point for all outcomes.) That said, if there was an heir, he or she would probably be the strongest case for continuing to be a power player based on the title alone, unless the Landsmeet decided to name someone else as their monarch.

[KnightofPhoenix]

In a presence of such chaos, I find it more likely that a more centralized and authoritarian form of government would be set in place (with iron and blood most likely). And the reforms put in place by this new regime (reforms that would empower the middle class), can set in motion Ferelden's transformation into a modern state, possibly with democratic institutions.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 04:51 .

[HolyAvenger]

Err, how do you get from centralized/authoritarian govt to a more democratic society? Landsmeet/royal elections to more democratic institutions I can envisage (ie similar to Magna Carta - House of Lords/Parliament type scenario I guess).

[KnightofPhoenix]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Err, how do you get from centralized/authoritarian govt to a more democratic society? Landsmeet/royal elections to more democratic institutions I can envisage (ie similar to Magna Carta - House of Lords/Parliament type scenario I guess).

France is an example.

And Britain only got more and more centralized, with lords losing power gradually. Replaced by the bourgoisie in Parliament. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In a presence of such chaos, I find it more likely that a more centralized and authoritarian form of government would be set in place (with iron and blood most likely). And the reforms put in place by this new regime (reforms that would empower the middle class), can set in motion Ferelden's transformation into a modern state, possibly with democratic institutions.

Provided that Ferelden didn't rip itself apart and revert to a state of warring ternyrs, this seems likely, Though it depends on whoever takes charge, on whether or not there will be some advanced reforms. They could just as easily be overtaken by some tin pot dictator that's delusional, and keeps the country in a forever retreating state of development.

[sevalaricgirl]

Duncan cared deeply for his recruits which is why Alistair and the warden were sent to the tower. He agreed because he thought that it would be safer than having them on the front line. I don't see any agenda that Duncan could have except that he wanted young blood in the GWs. He knew his time was near. It makes perfect sense that Duncan would think that with Alistair's sweet personality and the new GWs smarts that they'd be able to recruit a lot of new GWs and that one or the other would become warden commander of Fereldon eventually.

[iTofu]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Duncan, imo, must have known who Alistair is. And when he saw Cailan and realized how much of a fool he is, he proceeded to secure plan B, a potential heir to the throne. I do not think Duncan approves of being political, but when you have a king like Cailan, getting involved in politics is necessary and Duncan does not shirk from what he ought to percieve as necessary.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think Duncan didn't recruit Alistair with any political motive whatsoever, just the intention of relieving Alistair from a miserable life. He told Maric and Fiona he'd watch over him from a distance and Alistair was very unhappy living a life that Fiona would not have been happy about (was not happy about?). Duncan knew better than anyone that being a Warden is a hard life, but one that still provided more happiness and freedom than the path Alistair was on.

I can buy that Duncan protected Alistair from dangerous situations, at least partially, for political reasons. If Alistair died because Duncan put him in an excessively dangerous situation then, at a minimum, Eamon and Cailan would be upset. Cailan still thought of Alistair as a last resort option or he wouldn't've insisted that Alistair be assigned to lighting the tower.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What's the youngest he could conceivably be? I tend to go with 21 but I really can't see him as younger than 19.

Eamon's age is also a bit screwy. Supposedly, Loghain is about 50, so Eamon has to be younger. How much younger, I do not know, since supposedly, Eamon fought at some point in the rebellion. The toolset is not very reliable here, since it pegs Alistair as being much older, the original concept. It's hard to really pin ages accurately. 19 seems about right. Teagan seems a bit older than 38, though.

Eamon's age is very screwy. When Rendorn died, Rowan thought about about Eamon and Teagan not knowing about it yet and referred to them as still being "boys" and it didn't sound like they were doing any fighting. Teagan being 38 fits that. Origins seems to indicate Eamon did fight. So... Maybe he started fighting in battles after his father died and he was an older teenager but Rowan still thought of him as a boy.  Maybe 17? That'd make him around 48? That means Teagan and Rowan are more than a decade apart.