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[Sarah1281]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Duncan cared deeply for his recruits which is why Alistair and the warden were sent to the tower. He agreed because he thought that it would be safer than having them on the front line. I don't see any agenda that Duncan could have except that he wanted young blood in the GWs. He knew his time was near. It makes perfect sense that Duncan would think that with Alistair's sweet personality and the new GWs smarts that they'd be able to recruit a lot of new GWs and that one or the other would become warden commander of Fereldon eventually.

They were probably all his recruits. Does he care about them less the more time they've been a Warden? Yes, Duncan wanted young blood but he just happened to get the only other Theirin alive? By a coincidence? Even with the HN where he gets what looks like the last Cousland alive, he was going to respect Bryce's wishes until the attack and was drawn by rumors of the HN's skill. Alistair lost the tournament he was in which makes him sound like, at the time of recruitment, he was far less skilled than the HN. Additionally, Duncan had to ****** off the Chantry and almost get arrested to snag Alistair which seems like a lot of work and risk for just a 'I need new blood' thing.

And it makes no sense that if Duncan thought that everyone was going to die and maybe the two Wardens in the tower would be saved by divine intervention that he would send the two newbies who didn't even know how to kill the Archdemon. That would be the absolute stupidest thing to do. And why would he want a Warden he barely knows or someone who hates the idea of leadership and is still so new to take over after he's gone? Surely there was someone more expierienced and yet not at death's door who could have done it before Ostagar. Not to mention that Alistair being 'sweet' doesn't really come out when he's with the recruits in the Wilds although you could argue his levity would put them at ease and there's no guarantee that the Warden themself isn't stupid or crazy.

[Sarah1281]

Eamon's age is very screwy. When Rendorn died, Rowan thought about about Eamon and Teagan not knowing about it yet and referred to them as still being "boys" and it didn't sound like they were doing any fighting. Teagan being 38 fits that. Origins seems to indicate Eamon did fight. So... Maybe he started fighting in battles after his father died and he was an older teenager but Rowan still thought of him as a boy. Maybe 17? That'd make him around 48? That means Teagan and Rowan are more than a decade apart.

I don't think it's too unbelievable that at fifteen Eamon would still be considered a boy, particularly if it had been a few years since Rowan had seen him and he was even younger then. I think it makes sense if after the events of TST Eamon came back and fought. We know it took another three years to kill Meghren, after all. By then he'd be the same age Maric was when the book started.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And it makes no sense that if Duncan thought that everyone was going to die and maybe the two Wardens in the tower would be saved by divine intervention that he would send the two newbies who didn't even know how to kill the Archdemon. That would be the absolute stupidest thing to do. And why would he want a Warden he barely knows or someone who hates the idea of leadership and is still so new to take over after he's gone? Surely there was someone more expierienced and yet not at death's door who could have done it before Ostagar. Not to mention that Alistair being 'sweet' doesn't really come out when he's with the recruits in the Wilds although you could argue his levity would put them at ease and there's no guarantee that the Warden themself isn't stupid or crazy.

Yea it doesn't. If anything, Duncan should have preserved his veterans. In fact he shouldn't have been in the front lines in the first place. Conserve your forces for the inevitable encounter with the arhcdemon.

And yea I am nto sure how "sweetness" is supposed to matter in war.

iTofu wrote...
Perhaps I'm naive, but I think Duncan didn't
recruit Alistair with any political motive whatsoever, just the
intention of relieving Alistair from a miserable life. He told Maric and
Fiona he'd watch over him from a distance and Alistair was very unhappy
living a life that Fiona would not have been happy about (was not happy
about?). Duncan knew better than anyone that being a Warden is a hard
life, but one that still provided more happiness and freedom than the
path Alistair was on.

Like Sarah explained, I find it very hard to believe that Duncan went through all this trouble, just to make the life of one person less miserable (and let's not forget he is subjecting him to a 50% chance of dying). He was recruited 6 months before Origins. That's when the blight started, no?
Is that really the perfect time for Duncan to ****** off the Chantry, just to get Alistair who demonstrated no extraordinary talent because he feels sorry for him?

I am not denying that Duncan may have felt sorry for him. But I find it hard to believe that the man who would bargin with dying parents on the safety of their child because he feels it's necessary, would act solely or even mainly based on his feelings. And just by coincidence, Alistair happens to be a Therein.
Sound OOC for me. Maybe that's what Alistair wants to believe, yea sure. But it's probably much more than that.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:05 .

[shatteredstar56]

Sarah1281 wrote...



They were probably all his recruits. Does he care about them less the more time they've been a Warden? Yes, Duncan wanted young blood but he just happened to get the only other Theirin alive? By a coincidence? Even with the HN where he gets what looks like the last Cousland alive, he was going to respect Bryce's wishes until the attack and was drawn by rumors of the HN's skill. Alistair lost the tournament he was in which makes him sound like, at the time of recruitment, he was far less skilled than the HN. Additionally, Duncan had to ****** off the Chantry and almost get arrested to snag Alistair which seems like a lot of work and risk for just a 'I need new blood' thing.

And it makes no sense that if Duncan thought that everyone was going to die and maybe the two Wardens in the tower would be saved by divine intervention that he would send the two newbies who didn't even know how to kill the Archdemon. That would be the absolute stupidest thing to do. And why would he want a Warden he barely knows or someone who hates the idea of leadership and is still so new to take over after he's gone? Surely there was someone more expierienced and yet not at death's door who could have done it before Ostagar. Not to mention that Alistair being 'sweet' doesn't really come out when he's with the recruits in the Wilds although you could argue his levity would put them at ease and there's no guarantee that the Warden themself isn't stupid or crazy.

Alister has skill, and character. Duncan was looking for both, and though Alister lost the tourney, we don't know the circumstances to which he lost. Maybe he tripped, or he was distracted by someone's colorful clothing.  Duncan could have guessed he would win, and luck failed him.  He also takes the H/E Mage, even though the Mage didn't stop Jowan from using blood magic.  He says that the First Enchanter recommended the Mage, yes, but he also recommended Wynne and several others. The Mage wasn't first choice, Duncan chose the Mage because in addition to his/her skill, they also had loyalty.  It could be said that he saw loyalty in Alister, and that was why Duncan picked Alister.  Duncan also takes the DE,  because of the the incident with the mirror, and the results.  He hadn't probably seen the DE in battle, and could only ask for the opinion of the clan on her skill and loyalty.

Duncan couldn't have known everyone would die, even if he had an inkling, he can sense only darkspawn, not men's intentions.  Apart from that, whose to say we really know who Duncan is? We see him in the beginning, and have Alister's testimony.  Alister is very loyal, and it could something like Leliana's past in Orlais, if anything.  We really don't know how smart he was or wasn't, but it does seem odd that he just happened to find Alister and recruit him above all others, skill and loyalty notwithstanding.

[KnightofPhoenix]

shatteredstar56 wrote...
Alister has skill, and character. Duncan was looking for both, and though Alister lost the tourney, we don't know the circumstances to which he lost. Maybe he tripped, or he was distracted by someone's colorful clothing. 

...and that's supposed to make him a good candidate how?...

shatteredstar56 wrote...
  He also takes the H/E Mage, even though the Mage didn't stop Jowan from using blood magic.  He says that the First Enchanter recommended the Mage, yes, but he also recommended Wynne and several others. The Mage wasn't first choice, Duncan chose the Mage because in addition to his/her skill, they also had loyalty.  It could be said that he saw loyalty in Alister, and that was why Duncan picked Alister.  Duncan also takes the DE,  because of the the incident with the mirror, and the results.  He hadn't probably seen the DE in battle, and could only ask for the opinion of the clan on her skill and loyalty.

First off, the mage doesn't have to be loyal, he either betrays his friend or betrays the Circle. Second, the mage finished the Harrowing in record time. So yes, the mage is exceptional.

We have seen Duncan being very prudent about avoiding to anger anyone. Using the Right of Conscription on a Templar pissed the Chantry off, they almost refused. So why would he be this determined to recruit someone who displayed no particular talent or skill? I am pretty sure there were many better than him. 
Now add the fact that he is a Therein, and it makes much more sense.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[blothulfur]

Every warden origin proves themselves to be a survivor and personally I think that's why we were sent with Alistair to the tower, we were his bodyguard.

Be nice if the writers wrapped up some of the mysteries for us in DA2.

[shatteredstar56]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



...and that's supposed to make him a good candidate how?...



First off, the mage doesn't have to be loyal, he either betrays his friend or betrays the Circle. Second, the mage finished the Harrowing in record time. So yes, the mage is exceptional.

We have seen Duncan being very prudent about avoiding to anger anyone. Using the Right of Conscription on a Templar pissed the Chantry off, they almost refused. So why would he be this determined to recruit someone who displayed no particular talent or skill? I am pretty sure there were many better than him. 
Now add the fact that he is a Therein, and it makes much more sense.

I don't think that makes him a good candidate.  It makes sense that Duncan wanted Alister for his connection to Maric, but if he wanted some good connections, why not take Loghain for a Warden as well? Admitting he would anger a lot of people by conscripting someone powerful like that. Alister also mentioned that he has unique skills as a templar, and that Duncan wanted to use these to help the Wardens. 

The mage was either disloyal to the Circle and loyal to the friend, or loyal to the Circle and disloyal to the friend. The only place I heard the Harrowing was finished in record time from was Cullen, and he had a crush on the mage.

Again, I would say that the best explanation is that Duncan is someone we don't know.  He could have been a lot like Marjolaine was to Leliana, in more ways then one, and we wouldn't know, because our time with him was cut short.  Alister had some unique talents, enough to get him recruited as an excuse, but how could Duncan have used his blood relations to help the Wardens?  If he knew there would be no other candidates once Cailan was gone, it wouldn't have looked good for him to push Alister forward.  If Duncan was smart enough to think that far ahead, he wouldn't be stupid enough to have the Grey Wardens push a Grey Warden towards the crown.

[KnightofPhoenix]

shatteredstar56 wrote...
I don't think that makes him a good candidate.  It makes sense that Duncan wanted Alister for his connection to Maric, but if he wanted some good connections, why not take Loghain for a Warden as well? Admitting he would anger a lot of people by conscripting someone powerful like that. Alister also mentioned that he has unique skills as a templar, and that Duncan wanted to use these to help the Wardens. 

Conscripting the Teyrn of Gwaren would have been a disaster. Duncan wasn't willing to force the issue on a Cousland, why would he do so with Loghain? Besides, Loghain would just tell him to gtfo out of his sight. 
And Alistair was hardly the only one with Templar abilities. Why didn't Duncan consript the one who won? 

shatteredstar56 wrote...
The mage was either disloyal to the Circle and loyal to the friend, or loyal to the Circle and disloyal to the friend. The only place I heard the Harrowing was finished in record time from was Cullen, and he had a crush on the mage.

In either case, the mage is not perfectly loyal. I don't think that's a concern for Duncan, Wardens recruit the worst kinds of criminals. 
Jowan and other mage students also make references to breaking the record thing.

shatteredstar56 wrote...
 but how could Duncan have used his blood relations to help the Wardens?  If he knew there would be no other candidates once Cailan was gone, it wouldn't have looked good for him to push Alister forward.  If Duncan was smart enough to think that far ahead, he wouldn't be stupid enough to have the Grey Wardens push a Grey Warden towards the crown.

We know from David Gaider that if Duncan survived Ostagar, he would have left Ferelden. But that's due to a military defeat, not necessarily because he rejects the idea of a Therein Warden on the throne.

Duncan doesn't necessarily need to have a master plan. What he could have wanted was to expand his options. If Cailan died, which was very likely, Duncan can provide a candidate for the throne.
Now if Ferelden collapses into civil war anyways, I'd think Duncan would just not care and leave. But it's still worth a shot to expand his options and have a "backup" Therein.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:41 .

[shatteredstar56]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Conscripting the Teyrn of Gwaren would have been a disaster. Duncan wasn't willing to force the issue on a Cousland, why would he do so with Loghain? Besides, Loghain would just tell him to gtfo out of his sight. 
And Alistair was hardly the only one with Templar abilities. Why didn't Duncan consript the one who won? 

In either case, the mage is not perfectly loyal. I don't think that's a concern for Duncan, Wardens recruit the worst kinds of criminals. 
Jowan and other mage students also make references to breaking the record thing.

We know from David Gaider that if Duncan survived Ostagar, he would have left Ferelden. But that's due to a military defeat, not necessarily because he rejects the idea of a Therein Warden on the throne.

Duncan doesn't necessarily need to have a master plan. What he could have wanted was to expand his options. If Cailan died, which was very likely, Duncan can provide a candidate for the throne.
Now if Ferelden collapses into civil war anyways, I'd think Duncan would just not care and leave. But it's still worth a shot to expand his options and have a "backup" Therein.

But things worked out in Duncan's favor. Either he has extreme luck combined with good intuition, or he might have had an inkling.  He didn't force the issue until the cards were in his favor, I'm sure if the cards had been in his favor with Loghain he would have him on the spot. 
Duncan wasn't going to conscript the dwarven noble, until she got her way to him through the Deep Roads. You could do that easily by being a rogue and sneaking, which is what I did.  Alister could have used his smarts and done something that impressed Duncan.  I'm not saying he did, but the man never did anything for more then one reason.

Very true, having a potential heir is a major plus, but to what end?  In all reality having Alister around would only give him more trouble, not bonus points.   He could have gotten in trouble with Cailan and Anora, which would have sent them to Orlais, where if the empress had become aware of it, she would have hunted for them (given the voice of the documents in Return to Ostagar.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

shatteredstar56 wrote...
But things worked out in Duncan's favor. Either he has extreme luck combined with good intuition, or he might have had an inkling.  He didn't force the issue until the cards were in his favor, I'm sure if the cards had been in his favor with Loghain he would have him on the spot. 
Duncan wasn't going to conscript the dwarven noble, until she got her way to him through the Deep Roads. You could do that easily by being a rogue and sneaking, which is what I did.  Alister could have used his smarts and done something that impressed Duncan.  I'm not saying he did, but the man never did anything for more then one reason.

Yea sure, if he thought he could get away with conscripting Loghain.
But apparently, Duncan only narrowly was able to force the issue on the Chantry and he pissed them off, something he tells us to avoid to do. For Alistair? Why?
Yea, Duncan could have had several reasons, pity being one of them. But if there is one main reason, it wouldn't have to do with skill, since Alistair lost. I doubt it was Duncan's feelings, he doesn't mind bargaining with dying parents. So the only thing left is Alistair's royal bastard status. Other than that, there is really nothing special about him, to warrant such determination and audacity. 

shatteredstar56 wrote...
Very true, having a potential heir is a major plus, but to what end?  In all reality having Alister around would only give him more trouble, not bonus points.   He could have gotten in trouble with Cailan and Anora, which would have sent them to Orlais, where if the empress had become aware of it, she would have hunted for them (given the voice of the documents in Return to Ostagar.)

To have a Warden king that would better coordinate the war effort, who takes the blight seriously, and maybe allow the Orlesians to come in.
Cailan is an idiot who practically worships the Wardens, so there is no trouble from him. Anora might have been trouble, it's true. But if Duncan remained quiet and subtle about it, I don't think he would have attracted too much attention.  A calculated risk.

I find it more likely than him risking to ****** not only the Chantry off, but potentially Anora and Loghain, just because he felt sorry for the man who demonstrated no exceptional skill or talent.

Now I gtg. Cheers.

[iTofu]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

iTofu wrote...
Perhaps I'm naive, but I think Duncan didn't recruit Alistair with any political motive whatsoever, just the intention of relieving Alistair from a miserable life. He told Maric and Fiona he'd watch over him from a distance and Alistair was very unhappy living a life that Fiona would not have been happy about (was not happy about?). Duncan knew better than anyone that being a Warden is a hard life, but one that still provided more happiness and freedom than the path Alistair was on.

Like Sarah explained, I find it very hard to believe that Duncan went through all this trouble, just to make the life of one person less miserable (and let's not forget he is subjecting him to a 50% chance of dying). He was recruited 6 months before Origins. That's when the blight started, no? Is that really the perfect time for Duncan to ****** off the Chantry, just to get Alistair who demonstrated no extraordinary talent because he feels sorry for him?

I am not denying that Duncan may have felt sorry for him. But I find it hard to believe that the man who would bargin with dying parents on the safety of their child because he feels it's necessary, would act solely or even mainly based on his feelings. And just by coincidence, Alistair happens to be a Therein. Sound OOC for me. Maybe that's what Alistair wants to believe, yea sure. But it's probably much more than that.  

Working under the assumption that Alistair is the son of Fiona, then yes, I do think he would go out of his way and risk pissing the Chantry off for the sake of recruiting one person, if that person is Alistair for the following reasons:

1.) Duncan said he'd watch over this Alistair.
2.) Alistair is the son of two of Duncan's friends, one of which is a Grey Warden who could very well be alive.
3.) His friend, Fiona, would be upset at the thought of her son being an unhappy mage-oppressing lyrium-addicted Templar.
4.) Alistair is good candidate for the Grey Wardens. Maybe there were better candidates, but he didn't need to be the best candidate.
5.) Alistair's mother survived the joining, it's logical that he would probably survive as well.

Considering all of that, I just don't think he had a political motive to conscript him. However, I think there is sound political reasoning to not put him in an excessively dangerous situation.

Modifié par iTofu, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:17 .

[shatteredstar56]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea sure, if he thought he could get away with conscripting Loghain.
But apparently, Duncan only narrowly was able to force the issue on the Chantry and he pissed them off, something he tells us to avoid to do. For Alistair? Why?
Yea, Duncan could have had several reasons, pity being one of them. But if there is one main reason, it wouldn't have to do with skill, since Alistair lost. I doubt it was Duncan's feelings, he doesn't mind bargaining with dying parents. So the only thing left is Alistair's royal bastard status. Other than that, there is really nothing special about him, to warrant such determination and audacity. 

To have a Warden king that would better coordinate the war effort, who takes the blight seriously, and maybe allow the Orlesians to come in.
Cailan is an idiot who practically worships the Wardens, so there is no trouble from him. Anora might have been trouble, it's true. But if Duncan remained quiet and subtle about it, I don't think he would have attracted too much attention.  A calculated risk.

I find it more likely than him risking to ****** not only the Chantry off, but potentially Anora and Loghain, just because he felt sorry for the man who demonstrated no exceptional skill or talent.

There were no other (as far as I know) templars among the Grey Wardens.  Duncan wouldn't have gotten away with recruiting an older templar, because he would have wean him off lyrium, for one thing.  For another, the templar would have depended on the lyrium for their talents, so they would be rendered useless after a while. Alister wasn't a full templar yet, he was only an initiate, by their standards.  This could be the other reason that Duncan recruited him, and not the templar who won. 

I think that like mages, Grey Wardens aren't supposed to have titles.  If there was a rule for this, it was clearly broken, but going along with the line that Grey Wardens have broken all ties to their old lives and serve their purpose, Duncan supporting Alister to become a king wouldn't be supportive of this, UNLESS

He thought Alister would take the Blight more seriously.  In which case, what could Alister do better?  Duncan was getting allies as fast as he could, they had already called Orlesion allies, Duncan had obviously visited the mages, elves, and dwarves.  Cailan might have been stupid, but it didn't change what Duncan could do in the time he had.
How could Duncan have known Alister was a bastard?  He looked like Maric and Cailan, yes, but it was subtle, and he doesn't act like either of them.  People look like each other all the time. Alister mentioned that he told Duncan, but the only people who knew were Loghain, Maric, Eamon, and Goldanna, though she didn't know what he looked like.

[Sarah1281]

There were no other (as far as I know) templars among the Grey Wardens. Duncan wouldn't have gotten away with recruiting an older templar, because he would have wean him off lyrium, for one thing.

Does Duncan know about this, though? The degree of secrecy this is supposed to have seems to vary.

I think that like mages, Grey Wardens aren't supposed to have titles. If there was a rule for this, it was clearly broken, but going along with the line that Grey Wardens have broken all ties to their old lives and serve their purpose, Duncan supporting Alister to become a king wouldn't be supportive of this, UNLESS

Mages aren't just 'not supposed' to have titles, they legally can't. The GW titles thing has never been adequately explained and really only the GWs ever mention it. I think it's just a GW policy because you cannot really be an active-duty Warden and, say, an bann. You'd have your loyalties split and that would make you a worse noble and Warden. If you were going to inherit a title then the Wardens wouldn't want you unless you gave your position as heir up to a relative or someone like that. If you weren't planning on inheriting like with the HN then the parents still need to be consulted so that Duncan doesn't gain one recuit at the expense of a lot of goodwill and cause problems for himself and if the heir died and the HN would be next in line they'd have to refuse their inheritance or leave the Grey Wardens.

How could Duncan have known Alister was a bastard? He looked like Maric and Cailan, yes, but it was subtle, and he doesn't act like either of them. People look like each other all the time. Alister mentioned that he told Duncan, but the only people who knew were Loghain, Maric, Eamon, and Goldanna, though she didn't know what he looked like.

He heard from Maric? And does Alistair actually say that he himself told Duncan who his father was? And I don't think we can assume that only four people knew about Alistair. The secret seemed a bit more well-known than that.

[LobselVith8]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Duncan cared deeply for his recruits which is why Alistair and the warden were sent to the tower. He agreed because he thought that it would be safer than having them on the front line. I don't see any agenda that Duncan could have except that he wanted young blood in the GWs. He knew his time was near. It makes perfect sense that Duncan would think that with Alistair's sweet personality and the new GWs smarts that they'd be able to recruit a lot of new GWs and that one or the other would become warden commander of Fereldon eventually.

Anora admits that Cailan knew about Alistair. Given that it's Cailan who orders the Warden and Alistair to the Tower, it's possible that Cailan was keeping his brother out of harm's way, and Alistair merely thought that it was Duncan who kept him out of the fighting.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Anora admits that Cailan knew about Alistair. Given that it's Cailan who orders the Warden and Alistair to the Tower, it's possible that Cailan was keeping his brother out of harm's way, and Alistair merely thought that it was Duncan who kept him out of the fighting.

I doubt it was for altrusitic reasons. Cailan probably didn't want Alistair "stealing the glory".

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anora admits that Cailan knew about Alistair. Given that it's Cailan who orders the Warden and Alistair to the Tower, it's possible that Cailan was keeping his brother out of harm's way, and Alistair merely thought that it was Duncan who kept him out of the fighting.

I doubt it was for altrusitic reasons. Cailan probably didn't want Alistair "stealing the glory".

Possibly, but it would explain Alistair's perception of Duncan keeping him out of the fighting when it's really Cailan's doing.

As much as I liked that he didn't seem to have the bigoted views of elves or mages that most others have, I can understand Loghain's frustration with him; wanting to fight on the front lines, and how he wants to bring Orlesian soldiers into Ferelden given that it was only thirty years ago that Ferelden won it's freedom from Orlais. I could have bought that he placed importance over the threat of the Blight, but it's clear he doesn't think it's a real Blight when we first meet him. This seems to contradict what we're told in RtO, where we're told that Cailan thought it was a losing battle, but he didn't seem to do anything differently during the meeting with Loghain. I'm still dumbfounded over Cailan's intention of dumping Anora (who is a popular Queen) to marry the Empress of Orlais, and if Eamon's suggestion to replace her in the other letter in RtO meant that he arranged for the "alliance" between Celene I and Cailan.

[Sarah1281]

This seems to contradict what we're told in RtO, where we're told that Cailan thought it was a losing battle, but he didn't seem to do anything differently during the meeting with Loghain. I'm still dumbfounded over Cailan's intention of dumping Anora (who is a popular Queen) to marry the Empress of Orlais, and if Eamon's suggestion to replace her in the other letter in RtO meant that he arranged for the "alliance" between Celene I and Cailan.

Always consider the source. The only person who tells us anything about Cailan knowing that it's a losing battle and he's probably going to die is that member of the king's guard who ran away from the battle. He thought it was hopeless and very well may have projected it onto the king. He believed what he wanted to believe.



I rather doubt that Eamon arranged for Celene/Cailan if only because of his last letter to Cailan. If Eamon knew that Cailan was planning on finally taking his advice and marrying Empress Celene then (even if he would have been in support of such a plan which I'm not confident he would have been) then why would his most recent letter hesitantly bring up putting Anora aside again and make it sound like he's worried that Cailan will react as negatively to the idea as he did a year prior when Eamon first brought it up? It can't be for appearance's sake because no good would have come from people finding out that he was pressuring Cailan to ditch Anora.



Of course, from his perspective removing Anora makes sense even if really Cailan did need to keep her around as chancellor or something. Cailan/Anora have had no children in five years. His precious Theirin bloodline depends on this NOT being Cailan's fault. If Cailan is king he is required to have an heir and if Anora is barren, she cannot provide him with one. That's a pretty straightforward reason for finding a new wife.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Mages aren't just 'not supposed' to have titles, they legally can't. The GW titles thing has never been adequately explained and really only the GWs ever mention it. I think it's just a GW policy because you cannot really be an active-duty Warden and, say, an bann. You'd have your loyalties split and that would make you a worse noble and Warden. If you were going to inherit a title then the Wardens wouldn't want you unless you gave your position as heir up to a relative or someone like that. If you weren't planning on inheriting like with the HN then the parents still need to be consulted so that Duncan doesn't gain one recuit at the expense of a lot of goodwill and cause problems for himself and if the heir died and the HN would be next in line they'd have to refuse their inheritance or leave the Grey Wardens.
 

Makes you wonder if Duncan knows about what the First Warden is planning. And whether he approves or not.
Riordan doesn't look like he'd approve.

[KnightofPhoenix]

iTofu wrote...
Working under the assumption that Alistair is the son of Fiona, then yes, I do think he would go out of his way and risk pissing the Chantry off for the sake of recruiting one person, if that person is Alistair for the following reasons:

1.) Duncan said he'd watch over this Alistair.
2.) Alistair is the son of two of Duncan's friends, one of which is a Grey Warden who could very well be alive.
3.) His friend, Fiona, would be upset at the thought of her son being an unhappy mage-oppressing lyrium-addicted Templar.
4.) Alistair is good candidate for the Grey Wardens. Maybe there were better candidates, but he didn't need to be the best candidate.
5.) Alistair's mother survived the joining, it's logical that he would probably survive as well.

Considering all of that, I just don't think he had a political motive to conscript him. However, I think there is sound political reasoning to not put him in an excessively dangerous situation.

Replying to this now cause I just thought about it.

Why didn't Duncan recruit Alistair way before then? Why wait for the Blight? Did he know exactly when and where there was going to be a Blight, so opted to wait until then? What if there was no blight. Would have Duncan still recruited him? If so, why did he  wait till 6 months before Origins?

[shatteredstar56]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Replying to this now cause I just thought about it.

Why didn't Duncan recruit Alistair way before then? Why wait for the Blight? Did he know exactly when and where there was going to be a Blight, so opted to wait until then? What if there was no blight. Would have Duncan still recruited him? If so, why did he  wait till 6 months before Origins?

He could have been just passing by, and saw the tournament.  He was getting allies from every other race, and looking for recruits. He probably would still have recruited him if there was a Blight, but there need to be as many Grey Wardens as possible during a Blight, because of the Archdemon.
There are too many if's though.

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

Interesting thoughts here, thanks for starting this discussion!

Regarding Alistair's recruitment, imo even if Duncan didn't know who Alistair was, he could still be a suitable candidate. First, he had templar skills and was not addicted to lyrium. Sure his skills were inferior to others, but the lack of addiction was a worthy trade off. And second, Duncan was an excellent judge of characters and he could probably see that there was something in Alistair that could develop properly in the adequate environment. Not saying if Duncan knew or not, though, just saying that even if he didn't know Alistair still could have been chosen by him.

On the other hand, if he knew it could be that Duncan thought if he had Alistair in the Grey Wardens the nobles who knew of him (all very influential, who could potentially consider Alistair a suitable plan B for the throne) could make the GW's position in Ferelden easier to keep Alistair at hand.


And back to the Eamon front, certainly if he appears to be supporting Cailan's friendship with Orlais (and having an orlesian wife himself helps there), once Anora's inability to produce an heir is widely known maybe some people would think that the bastard Theirin is a suitable replacement, without it looking like Eamon is pulling the strings. You know, make people think your idea is not yours but their own.

Then, sending Alistair to the Chantry could be a step in that direction, making it look like Eamon was getting rid of the kid.

This would strengthen Eamon, by placing his puppet in the throne and debilitating the Mac Tir's position but without his involvement being too obvious.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mezzil wrote...
Alistair would be like 19 in Origins if he's Fiona's son. How could Duncan recruit him "way before then"?

We don't know if there is an age limit. Why not a year before?  Why wait for a Blight?