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[Sarah1281]

. Sure his skills were inferior to others, but the lack of addiction was a worthy trade off.

IF he knew about this which is hardly a guarantee.

And back to the Eamon front, certainly if he appears to be supporting Cailan's friendship with Orlais (and having an orlesian wife himself helps there), once Anora's inability to produce an heir is widely known maybe some people would think that the bastard Theirin is a suitable replacement, without it looking like Eamon is pulling the strings. You know, make people think your idea is not yours but their own.

I highly doubt it. The first thing you do when it looks like your queen can't reproduce (and we don't even know that it was her) is to replace the queen, not kick both the presumably fertile king and queen off the throne and replace them with the king's bastard half-brother.

[Ahriman Dragonhand]

And back to the Eamon front, certainly if he appears to be supporting Cailan's friendship with Orlais (and having an orlesian wife himself helps there), once Anora's inability to produce an heir is widely known maybe some people would think that the bastard Theirin is a suitable replacement, without it looking like Eamon is pulling the strings. You know, make people think your idea is not yours but their own.

I highly doubt it. The first thing you do when it looks like your queen can't reproduce (and we don't even know that it was her) is to replace the queen, not kick both the presumably fertile king and queen off the throne and replace them with the king's bastard half-brother.

Yes that would be right, but I counted with the factor that the king is becoming more... "friendly" with the orlesians than perhaps the rest of the nobility is willing to accept.

[shatteredstar56]

Ahriman Dragonhand wrote...

And back to the Eamon front, certainly if he appears to be supporting Cailan's friendship with Orlais (and having an orlesian wife himself helps there), once Anora's inability to produce an heir is widely known maybe some people would think that the bastard Theirin is a suitable replacement, without it looking like Eamon is pulling the strings. You know, make people think your idea is not yours but their own.

I highly doubt it. The first thing you do when it looks like your queen can't reproduce (and we don't even know that it was her) is to replace the queen, not kick both the presumably fertile king and queen off the throne and replace them with the king's bastard half-brother.

Yes that would be right, but I counted with the factor that the king is becoming more... "friendly" with the orlesians than perhaps the rest of the nobility is willing to accept.

Some important people had already accepted the Orlesions.  Arl Eamon married an Orlesion, Leliana had been born from a Ferelden native in Orlais, and many Orlesions come and go in Ferelden to trade, as well as vice versa.
Loghain was a strong voice against the Orlesions, and there would probably be some of the nobility as well who would follow him, given there are more then two sides to every conflict.  If Cailan had replaced Anora with an Orlesian, it would have caused outrage more to the fact that she was a Fereldan native, and he had replaced her with an Orlesian (presumabley) noble. Not only that, but she had been a good queen, and their marriage was a sign of Ferelden's new age of freedom (albeitting Maric's and Rowan's). It would have been prudent,if the Theiren line was to be continued, to marry someone else, but politically it would never go over well.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

This seems to contradict what we're told in RtO, where we're told that Cailan thought it was a losing battle, but he didn't seem to do anything differently during the meeting with Loghain. I'm still dumbfounded over Cailan's intention of dumping Anora (who is a popular Queen) to marry the Empress of Orlais, and if Eamon's suggestion to replace her in the other letter in RtO meant that he arranged for the "alliance" between Celene I and Cailan.

I rather doubt that Eamon arranged for Celene/Cailan if only because of his last letter to Cailan. If Eamon knew that Cailan was planning on finally taking his advice and marrying Empress Celene then (even if he would have been in support of such a plan which I'm not confident he would have been) then why would his most recent letter hesitantly bring up putting Anora aside again and make it sound like he's worried that Cailan will react as negatively to the idea as he did a year prior when Eamon first brought it up? It can't be for appearance's sake because no good would have come from people finding out that he was pressuring Cailan to ditch Anora. 

I remember a theory floating around that implied that Bryce Cousland was involved in arranging a marriage between Cailan and Celene, the evidence consisting entirely of Bryce's presence in Orlais. I think that the evidence suggesting that Eamon was actually the one involved is far stronger. I would actually go further and suggest that maybe Eamon arranged the marriage in full knowledge of the potential consequences of such a match (assimilation of Ferelden, war of succession etc) while intending for either himself or his son to take advantage of the ensuing chaos and seize the crowns of both kingdoms. Of course, this may be pure speculation, but given that I already think it possible that Eamon had designs to rule Ferelden through Alistair as his puppet king, I wouldn't put it past him.

Maric's decision to offload Alistair to Eamon is strange. As it is, I think that Maric should have named Bryce as second in line to the throne so as to avoid any ambitions on the part of Eamon.

[Sarah1281]

So how does that explain Eamon's letter tentatively suggesting that Cailan maybe think about putting Anora aside? It could either be an old letter or misdirection. Misdirection doesn't seem to fit because while anyone finding that letter wouldn't think Eamon had anything to do with Celene, it would still get him in trouble for plotting against the queen so he can't have wanted it discovered. It might be an old letter but why would Cailan have been carrying a letter that had to have been months old around with him at Ostagar? This would have had to have been written before Cailan even agreed to set aside Anora, let alone decided who to replace her with.

I would actually go further and suggest that maybe Eamon arranged the marriage in full knowledge of the potential consequences of such a match (assimilation of Ferelden, war of succession etc) while intending for either himself or his son to take advantage of the ensuing chaos and seize the crowns of both kingdoms.

I could theoretically see him taking advantage of Orlais rule in Ferelden through his wife's family/connections but once Celene got her hands on the Ferelden throne Eamon's not getting anywhere near it and there's no way he can be naive enough to think he could ever take the Orleisan crown. If Celene ever slips up, she has plenty of non-Ferelden rivals to take the throne.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 03 février 2011 - 08:43 .

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So how does that explain Eamon's letter tentatively suggesting that Cailan maybe think about putting Anora aside? It could either be an old letter or misdirection. Misdirection doesn't seem to fit because while anyone finding that letter wouldn't think Eamon had anything to do with Celene, it would still get him in trouble for plotting against the queen so he can't have wanted it discovered. It might be an old letter but why would Cailan have been carrying a letter that had to have been months old around with him at Ostagar? This would have had to have been written before Cailan even agreed to set aside Anora, let alone decided who to replace her with.

Eamon is clearly a charismatic and calculating man, and I could see him using misdirection to good effect. He clearly doesn't want to be found out for the traitor he is, so he plays it safe; Cailan is falling into his trap and there is no need to ruin things by congratulating Cailan or being hasty, as this would immediately arouse suspicion.

I could theoretically see him taking advantage of Orlais rule in Ferelden through his wife's family/connections but once Celene got her hands on the Ferelden throne Eamon's not getting anywhere near it and there's no way he can be naive enough to think he could ever take the Orleisan crown. If Celene ever slips up, she has plenty of non-Ferelden rivals to take the throne.

Eamon would of course wait for civil unrest to take advantage. With Celene in charge it would be foolish to make a move, and Eamon knows this. My theory is that Eamon would take advantage when war would inevitably break out in the bannorn, or that his son would when Cailan and Celene died, because I think that this would almost certainly lead to a war of succession.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 03 février 2011 - 09:21 .

[Sarah1281]

Eamon is clearly a charismatic and calculating man, and I could see him using misdirection to good effect. He clearly doesn't want to be found out for the traitor he is, so he plays it safe; Cailan is falling into his trap and there is no need to ruin things by congratulating Cailan or being hasty, as this would immediately arouse suspicion.

But why would he risk the letter advising setting Anora aside? If that's found, it gets him in trouble with Anora and her Teyrn father as well as all of Anora's supporters. And what would Cailan make of the uncle who plannned his marriage to Celene suddenly pretending that he still hasn't agreed to dump Anora yet?

Eamon would of course wait for civil unrest to take advantage. With Celene in charge it would be foolish to make a move, and Eamon knows this. My theory is that Eamon would take advantage when war would inevitably break out in the bannorn, or that his son would when Cailan and Celene died, because I think that this would almost certainly lead to a war of succession.

Eamon probably won't outlive Celene. A war might break out in Ferelden over being expected to accept Orlesian rule again but a war over Ferelden secession wouldn't break out in Orlais itself (because a foreign royal is a perfectly fine husband for her and she's the more powerful country) and she'd be quite safe.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Eamon is clearly a charismatic and calculating man, and I could see him using misdirection to good effect. He clearly doesn't want to be found out for the traitor he is, so he plays it safe; Cailan is falling into his trap and there is no need to ruin things by congratulating Cailan or being hasty, as this would immediately arouse suspicion.

But why would he risk the letter advising setting Anora aside? If that's found, it gets him in trouble with Anora and her Teyrn father as well as all of Anora's supporters. And what would Cailan make of the uncle who plannned his marriage to Celene suddenly pretending that he still hasn't agreed to dump Anora yet?

 
Maybe Eamon never never anticipated Anora seeing the letter. And why would she see it? And I think it possible that the letters as read in the codex aren't in the order that they are actually received by Cailan.

Eamon probably won't outlive Celene. A war might break out in Ferelden over being expected to accept Orlesian rule again but a war over Ferelden secession wouldn't break out in Orlais itself (because a foreign royal is a perfectly fine husband for her and she's the more powerful country) and she'd be quite safe.

Which is why I mentioned his son. Eamon might have the chance to act if civil unrest occurs during his own lifetime, but otherwise I would suggest that he intends for his son to carry out his plan.

[Sarah1281]

Maybe Eamon never never anticipated Anora seeing the letter. And why would she see it? And I think it possible that the letters as read in the codex aren't in the order that they are actually received by Cailan.

If Eamon never intended the letter to be seen by anyone, why hide the fact that he set Celene and Cailan up? And sure they don't have to be in order but if it's a letter that old and not even important to Cailan (how could it be? At least Celene's promise to come and then backing out matter) then why would he still have it on him?

Which is why I mentioned his son. Eamon might have the chance to act if civil unrest occurs during his own lifetime, but otherwise I would suggest that he intends for his son to carry out his plan.

If Eamon honestly thinks his son can take the Orlesian throne then he's a freaking idiot. End of story. The very best he could hope for was marrying Connor to an Orlesian noble and even then he'd have to give up Redcliffe if he wanted to livei n Orlais to try and eventually have an descendent married into the royal family.

[maxernst]

I think Maric chose Eamon for a simple reason: he's kin by marriage, and he had no other family to give him to. Plus, Redcliff is small and far from Denerim, so few people there would be able to recognize his startling resemblance to Cailan.



I don't see any reason to think that Eamon harbored long term designs on the throne of Ferelden, much less Orlais. I think he saw Alistair as a contingency plan to keep in his back pocket, should he become unhappy with the regime in Denerim, but I don't see evidence that he was particularly unhappy. He knew it was a possibility, though, otherwise he wouldn't have told Alistair who his father was.



That said, it does seem odd that he would surrender him to the Chantry. And I do think Loghain might have been the instigator there. By that point, the marriage of Cailan & Anora was likely already planned, so a potential threat to Cailan was also a threat to her. Even without that, Loghain would certainly not have wanted a potential pretender to the throne raised by a man who was married to an Orlesian. If Eamon had not agreed to send him away, Loghain might have had Alistair murdered.



The chantry's own input is an interesting thought. I've always been curious who told the High Cleric about Alistair. With the possible exception of Duncan (who might have learned from Fiona if she is his mother), I can immediately see why they would know.: Eamon, Loghain and Cailan presumably learned from Maric, Loghain or Cailan told Anora, Eamon told Teagan. Did Eamon tell the High Cleric as a way of getting the Chantry to be careful with him? Did Loghain tell her in order to get her pressure on Isolde (who is very religious)?



I've always assumed that the reason that the High Cleric didn't want to allow Duncan to take Alistair was because she saw advantages in having a Templar on the throne, as the years dragged on and Cailan failed to produce an heir.

[Sarah1281]

By that point, the marriage of Cailan & Anora was likely already planned, so a potential threat to Cailan was also a threat to her.

Cailan and Anora were betrothed when Cailan was an infant which was before Alistair was ever born.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...
I think Maric chose Eamon for a simple reason: he's kin by marriage, and he had no other family to give him to. Plus, Redcliff is small and far from Denerim, so few people there would be able to recognize his startling resemblance to Cailan.

I don't see any reason to think that Eamon harbored long term designs on the throne of Ferelden, much less Orlais. I think he saw Alistair as a contingency plan to keep in his back pocket, should he become unhappy with the regime in Denerim, but I don't see evidence that he was particularly unhappy. He knew it was a possibility, though, otherwise he wouldn't have told Alistair who his father was.

Whether Eamon was dissatisfied or not is not that relevent. The point I made is that with the current political context, Eamon has strong reasons to be disatisfied, and giving him a weapon like that is imprudent. Seeing how Maric's sense of character judgement proved to be very poor in the past, I wouldn't trust it and neither should he. 

Maric had alternatives other than Eamon which this thread has discussed. The marriage link is not that relevent, considering that Rowan is dead and the marriage was political anyhow. Whatever benefits Eamon might have gotten from the marriage are effectively neutralized or greatly reduced with Rowan's death.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

By that point, the marriage of Cailan & Anora was likely already planned, so a potential threat to Cailan was also a threat to her.

Cailan and Anora were betrothed when Cailan was an infant which was before Alistair was ever born.

I hadn't realized that, but infant betrothal plans are easy to change and in any case the chances of two children even surviving to adulthood weren't that great. By the time Alistair's sent to the chantry, the marriage would be a lot more imminent.

[maxernst]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

maxernst wrote...
I think Maric chose Eamon for a simple reason: he's kin by marriage, and he had no other family to give him to. Plus, Redcliff is small and far from Denerim, so few people there would be able to recognize his startling resemblance to Cailan.

I don't see any reason to think that Eamon harbored long term designs on the throne of Ferelden, much less Orlais. I think he saw Alistair as a contingency plan to keep in his back pocket, should he become unhappy with the regime in Denerim, but I don't see evidence that he was particularly unhappy. He knew it was a possibility, though, otherwise he wouldn't have told Alistair who his father was.

Whether Eamon was dissatisfied or not is not that relevent. The point I made is that with the current political context, Eamon has strong reasons to be disatisfied, and giving him a weapon like that is imprudent. Seeing how Maric's sense of character judgement proved to be very poor in the past, I wouldn't trust it and neither should he. 

Maric had alternatives other than Eamon which this thread has discussed. The marriage link is not that relevent, considering that Rowan is dead and the marriage was political anyhow. Whatever benefits Eamon might have gotten from the marriage are effectively neutralized or greatly reduced with Rowan's death.

I see kinship ties as being a great deal more important than that, political marriage or not.  After all, Alistair suggests Eamon could even get a claim on the throne through it.  Sending him to a minor bann might hve been a better idea, but I think family ties would have been a factor.  As to Eamon volunteering to raise Alistair, why would he even know Alistair existed unless he was either one of Maric's most trusted friends or Maric was choosing to have Alistair raise him.. 

As far as alternatives, Loghain is well-known to be the King's best friend, so him having a bastard around would be much more suspicious.  Gwaren is bigger than Redcliff and more people would be aware of him, and I'm not sure if Loghain's even in Gwaren that much.  Bryce Cousland's an even more dangerous choice than Eamon, as well as Highever being a major center.

[Sarah1281]

After all, Alistair suggests Eamon could even get a claim on the throne through it.

Alistair is kind of grasping at straws to avoid being chosen. If there are no heirs, Eamon can use his Rowan connection and politics to get himself the throne but he wouldn't inherit it in any line of succession.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...
I see kinship ties as being a great deal more important than that, political marriage or not.  After all, Alistair suggests Eamon could even get a claim on the throne through it.  Sending him to a minor bann might hve been a better idea, but I think family ties would have been a factor.  As to Eamon volunteering to raise Alistair, why would he even know Alistair existed unless he was either one of Maric's most trusted friends or Maric was choosing to have Alistair raise him.. 

As far as alternatives, Loghain is well-known to be the King's best friend, so him having a bastard around would be much more suspicious.  Gwaren is bigger than Redcliff and more people would be aware of him, and I'm not sure if Loghain's even in Gwaren that much.  Bryce Cousland's an even more dangerous choice than Eamon, as well as Highever being a major center.

If the purpose was to make Alistair disapear from the political scene forever, removing him from all family ties is what should have been done. As to Eamon knowing, the possibility that he was trusted by Maric, whose excessive trusting nature is known, does not change the reality of the political context of the time which Maric ignored completely. Yes, Maric might have trusted Eamon that much as to be compeltely oblivious to the reality around him. Doesn't make it any less imprudent.

To remove Alistair from politics completely, Maric should have given him to a commoner family, detached from court life. Either close to Denerim in the rural area, or some place else, with an agent to report news every once in a while (though seeing what happened to Alsitair later, I think Maric stopped caring).  Giving him to any noble is imprudent, especially to major ones like Eamon, Loghain and Bryce. A minor bann, maybe, though he'd have to insure that this bann is not part of some coalition headed by a major noble. The best course of action would have been to give Alistair away to a freeholder family, and check on him every once in a while if he is that adamant about it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[Mayorin]

But may be Maric decided not to remove Alistair fron politics completely. He had only one heir, Cailan, and as it seems never planned to marry again after Rowan's death. So may be he saw Alistair as a "plan B" just in case something would happen to Cailan or Cailan's own heir. Then giving him to Eamon makes sense: Eamon is skilled politician, whom Maric respects, loyal to Theirins (before Landsmeet Eamon admits how important the Theirin on the throne is, even an incompetent Theirin such as Alistair, just in order to prevent the civil war) and could support Alistair's claim to the throne. And that's what precisely hapenned in the game. And i don't think Eamon planned to usurp the throne - it would just cause a civil war. But then somebody (Maric or Loghain or Eamon or all of them) decided that Alistair was a bigger threat to healthy Cailan and his future queen Anora than they thought and in order to protect him from any political influence sent him to the Chantry, most powerful political and military force in Thedas. To Chantry's glee of course. And i think this was the only Maric' irrational and naive decision.
Sry for mah engrish.

 

Modifié par Mayorin, 04 février 2011 - 02:38 .

[Mayorin]

And regarding Eamon's "vicious plans" of orlesian ocupation and becoming king: yes Eamon is cunning and very ambitious politician, but not ambicious enough to leave all Ferelden in ruins just to put on a crown. He seemed like a patriot to me. Put puppet Theirin on the throne and rule by himself for country's prosperity - yeah sure; chevaliers running wild in Ferelder - big no.

[maxernst]

Mayorin wrote...

But may be Maric decided not to remove Alistair fron politics completely. He had only one heir, Cailan, and as it seems never planned to marry again after Rowan's death. So may be he saw Alistair as a "plan B" just in case something would happen to Cailan or Cailan's own heir. Then giving him to Eamon makes sense: Eamon is skilled politician, whom Maric respects, loyal to Theirins (before Landsmeet Eamon admits how important the Theirin on the throne is, even an incompetent Theirin such as Alistair, just in order to prevent the civil war) and could support Alistair's claim to the throne. And that's what precisely hapenned in the game.
Sry for mah engrish.

 

I think this is plausible.  Remember that our only evidence that Maric wanted to make Alistair disappear completely is what Alistair was told as a child.  I don't imagine Eamon would give an 8-year-old the full story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think it would make more sense if they considered Alistair as plan B, to declare him as Maric's son and give him something to do so that the nobility can be accustomed to him a bit (while making sure you don't give him too much), rather than hide him from everyone, but then reveal him to be the bastard unrecognized heir who should get the throne. We see in DA:O how the nobles in the tavern were very unimpressed with Eamon's claims (and probably only accepted it because the Warden, the real power in the Landsmeet, said so and because they stopped caring, they just want to fight the blight). Ferelden is not as fixated on royal blood as Eamon makes it sound like. If they didn't know Alistair at all and saw that Maric hid him from them, they really have little reason to accept him as king. They almost went for a Cousland, despite Cailan being the son of their "savior".

And you'd think that if this is what Maric had in mind, that he would make sure that Eamon is in fact educating him, which apparently he wasn't. Furthermore, I think Loghain's comments on the issue (who I think ought to know a lot about this) does not really hint that anyone thought Alistair to be a plausible plan B.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 04:03 .

[Addai]

I'm not sure why you assume Loghain knew anything about it at all. The Calling shows Maric trying to conceal even his son's existence from Loghain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Didn't Loghain talk about the issue in Origins? That's what I seem to remember. I find it hard to believe that Loghain did not know from the very beginning who Alistair was. I think he ended up knowing, whether Maric wanted it or not.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Didn't Loghain talk about the issue in Origins? That's what I seem to remember. I find it hard to believe that Loghain did not know from the very beginning who Alistair was. I think he ended up knowing, whether Maric wanted it or not.

His Origins comments are difficult to interpret because they seem to refer to Rowan being alive when the baby was born.  So you either have to handwave or assume that Loghain didn't know much if anything about Alistair and is speaking from his knowledge of Maric's character (i.e. that he would have done his duty if not for other considerations etc.).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Because you are starting with the assumption that Alistair is Fiona's kid, which is not that clear either to begin with. Nor do his comments necessarily imply that Rowan is still alive, her honor can still be insulted after her death and people would gossip that Maric always cheated on her. And he can still prove a threat to Cailan, if he was revealed. I find it hard to believe that Loghain who practically lived in Denerim, had something like this happen right under his nose without his knowledge.

And Loghain's "knowledge" of Maric borders on being a ridiculous infatuation with little basis that I find it hard to take seriously (and find it insulting to be compared to him), but that's another discussion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 04:35 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because you are starting with the assumption that Alistair is Fiona's kid, which is not that clear either to begin with. Nor do his comments necessarily imply that Rowan is still alive, her honor can still be insulted after her death and people would gossip that Maric always cheated on her. And he can still prove a threat to Cailan, if he was revealed. I find it hard to believe that Loghain who practically lived in Denerim, had something like this happen right under his nose without his knowledge.

And Loghain's "knowledge" of Maric borders on being a ridiculous infatuation with little basis that I find it hard to take seriously (and find it insulting to be compared to him), but that's another discussion.

Even if the baby is not Fiona's, based on Alistair's age he can't have been born during her lifetime.  So yeah as I said, you have to handwave it in one direction or another and therefore it's difficult to say that Loghain knew much of anything about the circumstances.

Not sure what's set you on a Maric rage, but not much to discuss there.