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[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I also think Gaider is more interested in their relationships rather than in the social-political scheme.

He was average at best in the former. Terrible in the latter.
I am sorry, but Maric / Katriel is just annoying, Loghain / Rowan is too obvious and unsubtle, with no real attempt at originality (yea, sword fighting to express sexual tension. So original and unexpected). Loghain / Maric borders on the absurd and comical.  

So meh. If the character development in the book was of high quality, I may have ignored how deficient it is in the other fields.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 11:27 .

[Addai]

Right, so like I said in my first post in the thread- why struggle to make the story into something you actually like? You end up making it something it's not. P.S. Write your own fantasy cycle so you get the story you really want to read. I'd read it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Oh man I cant believe Loghain actually followed Maric around.



I honestly wonder if Maric ever pulls his heads out of the clouds, or stops drooling at every elf he sees.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Because despite everything, I find it interesting and I see no reason why I shouldn't attempt to understand the political and social dynamics. The game had a few hints here and there and I am working well within the boundaries.

Since most other games are worse and their forums are unspeakable, my options are limited.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Oh man I cant believe Loghain actually followed Maric around.

I honestly wonder if Maric ever pulls his heads out of the clouds, or stops drooling at every elf he sees.

There was a humourous review / critic of TST, that hilariously, but sadly very accurately sumarizes the whole thing. 

I do not mind character development. In fact, my interest in history has been in a lot of ways to read about exceptional individuals, their evolution and how they percieved their context. I read about history through exceptional individuals who were shaped and did shape the environment around them. I lean more toward the academic hsitorical works, rather than novels, but some of the former manage to integrate a bit of the latter in petinent and meaningful ways as to "humanize" the history that is being analysed. 

TST was just on the level of being an FF. In fact I read FFs that are better, in both character development and the exposition and integration of political/ social dynamics. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

In fact, as I read it, the way the book was narrated and how it opted to "electrify" and "intensify" emotions and feelings to a comical level, instead of the slow, subtle and gradual evolution of real people taking into account the context that they are in, sounds very much like it was written like a movie, if you know what I mean.

It just sounded and felt like a very average popcorn Hollywood movie that is trying to take itself way too seriously.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 11:53 .

[Addai]

Well it IS a game, not say, the product of a lifetime of research in philology and history as Tolkien's stuff is. But Gaider thinks some of Tolkien's writing is dull. I read Tolkien appendices when I want to have the nerdy side tickled- and mostly I read history, too, rather than novels. I read Gaider for the characters. I think the characters just resonate more with me than they do for you. Personal taste, really.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well I don't like Tolkien because it reeks of orientalist crap and is way too western for my tastes. But yea sure, I am not expecting that much from the novels. But they did not resonate to me and yea I guess it's tastes.

Characters in Origins, I like very much and I think they were well done. Granted, it requires me to RP the loopholes my self and artificially extend Morrigan's romance that can develop way too rapidly otherwise. Origins was meh vis a vis politics and the military, but it more than made up for it with interesting lore and characters, and space for us to RP. Not the case for TST for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2011 - 11:59 .

[Addai]

Have you read A Song of Ice and Fire? It would be interesting to compare reactions.



Not that I want to derail too much. I stated my take on your OP in the Alistair thread and don't have much to add to that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I haven't. Some recommended it to me. I happen to trust Costin's judgment cause he knows what I like, and he said it was adequate IIRC.

But I'll save it for later. I just borrowed 2 juicy historical books from the university library ha! om nom nom

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Have you read A Song of Ice and Fire? It would be interesting to compare reactions.

Not that I want to derail too much. I stated my take on your OP in the Alistair thread and don't have much to add to that.

I did start reading A Clash of Kings but I have to say that after 100+ pages nothing of note happened really except with Arya, so I thought it rather boring and gave up. Do you think I should I go back to it? Do people like Tyrion ever become anything other than dull? I realise that having not started the series from the beginning that I may have missed a sizeable chunk of story, but nevertheless.

Very off topic I know.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 05 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[Addai]

*gulp* Tyrion dull? I can't even... I don't even... yes it's too off topic to go into, but if I understand you correctly you started with A Clash of Kings. I would go back and read A Game of Thrones first. The books are not stand-alone.

@KoP, you say TST/ TC was like fanfiction as if that is a bad thing.    I'm having a similar discussion on the DA2 board and was reminded that they were both written in the evenings after Gaider had worked a full day, and he was on deadlines as well as page count limitations. That's just amazing to me. It makes a difference to have publisher and editor support. BTW there are good fan writers, too- in Tolkien fandom I've collaborated with (for example) a professional journalist and a medieval historian- so just because it's amateur doesn't make it cheesybad. I haven't actually read a lot of DA fanfiction, despite writing it for months now, but some of what I've read has been excellent storytelling. Just some perspective.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2011 - 01:35 .

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

*gulp* Tyrion dull? I can't even... I don't even... yes it's too off topic to go into, but if I understand you correctly you started with A Clash of Kings. I would go back and read A Game of Thrones first. The books are not stand-alone.

Fair enough and thanks. When I next visit a bookshop, I will look for A Game of Thrones.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
@KoP, you say TST/ TC was like fanfiction as if that is a bad thing.    I'm having a similar discussion on the DA2 board and was reminded that they were both written in the evenings after Gaider had worked a full day, and he was on deadlines as well as page count limitations. That's just amazing to me. It makes a difference to have publisher and editor support. BTW there are good fan writers, too- in Tolkien fandom I've collaborated with (for example) a professional journalist and a medieval historian- so just because it's amateur doesn't make it cheesybad. I haven't actually read a lot of DA fanfiction, despite writing it for months now, but some of what I've read has been excellent storytelling. Just some perspective.

No, just that "amateurs" who are not writers themselves, did a better job imo.
I am not intending to flatter you, but I think your FF integrated politics better. Lady Damodred's Sundered Order also comes to mind.

Yes, I am aware of the large constraints Gaider faced and I am not saying he is a bad writer. Just that TST was not that great of a book. But I do htink Gaider could have done a better job if he was given the chance.

[Addai]

I see. I find that I enjoy the characters enough that whatever flaws are there- and I'm sure the author is more aware of them than anyone- don't bother me much. But I'm a glutton, I insist on liking both Maric and Loghain.  I even think Eamon is a good guy and not a ruthless conniver. He probably would have done better for Alistair if he had been more political.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 février 2011 - 03:05 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Oh man I cant believe Loghain actually followed Maric around.

I honestly wonder if Maric ever pulls his heads out of the clouds, or stops drooling at every elf he sees.

There was a humourous review / critic of TST, that hilariously, but sadly very accurately sumarizes the whole thing. 

You mean this: lilith-morgana.livejournal.com/302507.html#cutid1 ? (The Stolen Throne in 15 minutes)

It's made of awesome LOLZ! 

[Sarah1281]

Meanwhile, Anora isn't mentioned in the books, but one supposes that her father has more to do with her than Maric did with Cailan.

It does say this.

From The Calling...



As he watched his old friend storm off, he found himself left with a weary hollowness. Perhaps he even felt a bit of pity, and then guilt for pitying a man who had done so much for him. For all of Loghain's protests about how he remained in Denerim to help run things, Maric knew why he didn't return to Gwaren. A perfectly lovely young wife was there, raising their perfectly lovely young daughter.



They were all running away from something.

It doesn't really seem that Loghain was much more of a presence in Anora's life than Maric was in Cailan's.

They don't deserve credit for the accomplishment. They didn't accomplish anything but subterfuge.

I would disagree with that. Yes, their accomplishments are not solely their own merit but it's not like people just stand there stupidly and have awesome things happen to them. There is luck and pre-set factors involved but people still have to work to make their accomplishments happen.

[Shinobu]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Oh man I cant believe Loghain actually followed Maric around.

I honestly wonder if Maric ever pulls his heads out of the clouds, or stops drooling at every elf he sees.

There was a humourous review / critic of TST, that hilariously, but sadly very accurately sumarizes the whole thing. 

You mean this: lilith-morgana.livejournal.com/302507.html#cutid1 ? (The Stolen Throne in 15 minutes)

It's made of awesome LOLZ! 

This was amazing. And dead-on accurate. I think if anything the books made me respect Maric less than when I knew nothing about him. Not to insult the Maker, because the game is ridiculously awesome, but the books left me cold.