406 réponses à ce sujet

[Archereon]

Lyssistr wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

tbh I favor a VOd protagonist but in any case, can't they add an option to mute him/her so that everybody's happy?

And watch her lips move as she walks around, gestures, sits, stands, drinks, etc...but just not hear words? If they edited the wheel to also display the exact text  before selection (seeing it after the fact as sub-title would not be acceptable to me), I would consider it a sigh inducing compromise, but wouldn't be terribly happy, I'm afraid.

With apologies.  I feel I'm being difficult, but just trying to be honest here.

 One sec, people who don't want a VOd protagonist, are also against facial expressions etc? I'm trying to understand what you want, you don't have to explain why you want it, your tastes are your own business but facial expressions are a new cool thing in computer graphics and I can't see how this correlates to having VO or not having VO.

Then you don't understand our argument.  In a nutshell, non-voiced PCs allow for more self-projection and better immersion in a choice-based game.

[LdyShayna]

Lyssistr wrote...
 One sec, people who don't want a VOd protagonist, are also against facial expressions etc? I'm trying to understand what you want, you don't have to explain why you want it, your tastes are your own business but facial expressions are a new cool thing in computer graphics and I can't see how this correlates to having VO or not having VO.

I can't speak for everyone, but I do not.  Oh, I certainly love the facial expressions for NPCs and such, but the more BioWare does FOR me for my character, the less it is my character, from my point of view.  I LOVE when they leave things to my imagination.  BioWare had reached what was, for me, an excellent balance in regards to showing things versus letting my imagination fill in (Bethesda, in contrast, had been too much filling in, but have showed marked movement towards my preference).  My characters NEVER felt stiff for me - because in my head my character did so much more than what was presented on the screen.  And that was a lot of the fun!

Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that it's a mark of an excellent RPG for me - if my imagination is not moved to constantly be adding to what I've been playing, then I'm probably not enjoying the game very much.

[Lyssistr]

ok I can understand that you want some things to be left for you to interpret/imagine. The argument is old, it had appeared in the past during the transition



text adventures -> graphic adventures.



So the VO bit is reasonable, even though I do prefer VO myself. However, why an option to mute the protagonist is a problem if he has facial expressions etc?

[Addai]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...
To read the whole review http://www.slate.com/id/2283385 . Hopefully this isn't a prophecy of things to come, but who can tell?

Good link, thank you.

I think this is my main concern in the sort of groupthink you see between BioWare devs and the fans hanging around these forums, that the silent PC is something inferior and gimped and outdated.  It's nice to see Mike Laidlaw acknowledging in an interview that a lot of people like the silent PC, or reviews such as this that point out the drawbacks both in player experience and the impact on storytelling.  Maybe after we see a few games with boring, middle-of-the-road or ever more fixed protagonists, people will get it.  Or DA2 could be the game that changes my mind on the subject, though somehow I doubt it.

@LdyShayna, cupcakes, definitely.  The funny thing about your analogy is that I really am a chocoholic who hates fudge and other chocoholics I know find it difficult to believe.  Feel the same way when people in these forums keep insisting that the voiced PC is inevitable.

[Maconbar]

I understand where the posters that prefer an unvoiced PC are coming from. I am currently playing Leliana's Song and I don't feel as though I am playing her role. It seems as though I am playing a director that is telling an actor what to do. That said, I do find that I like my role in this bit of DLC.



I didn't necessarily feel that way when I played ME1/ME2 but I think that is more a function of the playstyle.

[LdyShayna]

Lyssistr wrote...
So the VO bit is reasonable, even though I do prefer VO myself. However, why an option to mute the protagonist is a problem if he has facial expressions etc?

As I said above: "The more BioWare does FOR me for my character, the less it is my character, from my point of view."

Adding facial expressions is just one of those things.  Occasional cutscene take-overs could be mildly annoying, but didn't happen to much.  Doing this sort of thing during most major dialogs pushes the boundaries on whether its my character or theirs a little too far for my preference.  Not sure how I could explain it better.  Sorry.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 02 février 2011 - 07:53 .

[Lyssistr]

LdyShayna wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...
So the VO bit is reasonable, even though I do prefer VO myself. However, why an option to mute the protagonist is a problem if he has facial expressions etc?

As I said above: "The more BioWare does FOR me for my character, the less it is my character, from my point of view."

Adding facial expressions is just one of those things.  Occasional cutscene take-overs could be mildly annoying, but didn't happen to much.  Doing this sort of thing during most major dialogs pushes the boundaries on whether its my character or theirs a little too far for my preference.  Not sure how I could explain it better.  Sorry.

Ok, then facial expressions and VO are two separate stepbacks from your point of view. Then an option to mute the protagonist would get things at least half-way where you want them to be, I'd expect people who don't like VO to support an option like this.

[Addai]

LdyShayna wrote...
Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that it's a mark of an excellent RPG for me - if my imagination is not moved to constantly be adding to what I've been playing, then I'm probably not enjoying the game very much.

Agreed, I find that I go on autopilot and am much less engaged.  I actually liked ME2, but mostly because it's a shooter and I like the pew-pew if I can break it up with other stuff and go at my own pace.  Even though I liked the story, it's like an action movie for me- I put it aside and forget it.

I can understand the desire to make games easier and "streamlined" so they appeal to a wider audience, but if the game requires little of you, there's also little reason to feel invested in it.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

I think this is my main concern in the sort of groupthink you see between BioWare devs and the fans hanging around these forums, that the silent PC is something inferior and gimped and outdated.

You didn't just lump all anti-silent PC points of view into one dismissive groupthink category, did you?

Addai67 wrote...

I can understand the desire to make games easier and "streamlined" so they appeal to a wider audience, but if the game requires little of you, there's also little reason to feel invested in it.

Case in point, as far as I am concerned "streamlining" and a voiced protagonist have nothing at all to do with each other.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 07:58 .

[SoulRebel_1979]

Bioware, give us voiced weapons please.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Case in point, as far as I am concerned "streamlining" and a voiced protagonist have nothing at all to do with each other.

They're together because both are being touted as features that help the game be more accessible to a wider audience.

[TotoroTori]

Cariborne wrote...

The way I look at it, depending on how DA2 works out, DA3 can be with your Silent Warden, and with Hawke. Turning Hawke into a glorified companion! YAY!

I just have to say I like that idea, I like it a lot.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

They're together because both are being touted as features that help the game be more accessible to a wider audience.

Ah, so then the term "streamlining" when used on the forums is even more meaningless than I had anticipated.  This is perhaps the... third or fourth unique definition of "streamlining" I've read. 

Out of curiosity, where did Bioware claim that the voiced protagonist was intended to draw a wider audience for the game?

In any case, the dismissive groupthink comment bothered me more anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 08:06 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Ah, so then the term "streamlining" when used on the forums is even more meaningless than I had anticipated.  This is perhaps the... third or fourth unique definition of "streamlining" I've read. 

Out of curiosity, where did Bioware claim that the voiced protagonist was intended to draw a wider audience for the game?

In any case, the dismissive groupthink comment bothered me more anyway.

I can't account for how others use the term.  I mean it as the various ways in which the game is supposedly made less nerdy and "cumbersome"- don't have to change your companions' outfits, don't have to read through lists of dialogue options, etc.

As for groupthink, in early discussions of DA2 devs were saying things like "everyone hated the silent Warden" and then in the forums you get these threads cropping up saying "everyone hates a silent PC, time to move on".  As if this is a self-evident truth.  I'm just glad when I see some acknowledgement that it's not.  No need to get prickly.

[The Gentle Ben]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Case in point, as far as I am concerned "streamlining" and a voiced protagonist have nothing at all to do with each other.

Eh, normally I'm with you Mr. Shorts, but I may disagree here (although I hate the term "streamlining", and labels in general as they are typically reduced into caricatures of actual concepts and rationales).

My only real problems/concerns regarding the voiced protagonist (and thus why on balance I support them) are 1.) the potential for bad voice acting, and 2.) that the inclusion of a voiced PC results in more "fixed" protagonists generally (I'm fine with specifics) and potentially universally, as the resource limitations of supporting multiple potential protagonists can conceivably be deemed too high.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 02 février 2011 - 08:42 .

[Nighteye2]

LdyShayna wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...
tbh I favor a VOd protagonist but in any case, can't they add an option to mute him/her so that everybody's happy?

And watch her lips move as she walks around, gestures, sits, stands, drinks, etc...but just not hear words? If they edited the wheel to also display the exact text  before selection (seeing it after the fact as sub-title would not be acceptable to me), I would consider it a sigh inducing compromise, but wouldn't be terribly happy, I'm afraid.

With apologies.  I feel I'm being difficult, but just trying to be honest here.

You're not being difficult, you're just voicing the opinion of many gamers, myself included. From what I've seen, I'd guess about 30-70% of gamers prefers a silent protagonist.

[upsettingshorts]

Where do you disagree though, Ben?

From where I sit - or as far as I'm concerned as I said - cRPGs never gave me the kind of freedom to control the protagonist (or PC) that critics of the voiced protagonist say a voice takes away simply through its presence. There's nothing for anyone really to disagree with unless they want to argue I've been lying to myself all this time.

My issue with the groupthink comment, labels of streamlining, and others like it, is they move all opinions on one side of an issue - regardless of how different they are - into a single, easily dismissed group because no-one who owns the position that is put forward as a generic, caricatured approximation of their view, seems to exist to step forward and challenge it. For example, I cant think of anyone on these forums I would name as "pro-streamlined hand holding and lack of player agency" yet this is what is commonly described, explicitly or implicitly, as the position of the pro-VO crowd.

Therefore the common tactic is to blame this vast, silent, unwelcome majority in comments colored by or even downright drenched in scorn and indignance.  A group that again, either doesn't exist or isn't present to defend itself.

If they were so ubiquitous, you'd think I would have actually noticed them. But perhaps to those who hate the voiced protagonist, all views in opposition might as well be the same anyway. And vice versa. I try not to do that myself, but am not always successful.

Edit: All that being said, the example contained within Addai's post is a tame one compared to those that I aim to criticize as a whole.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 08:38 .

[tmp7704]

Filament wrote...

But everyone did hate the silent Warden. Why can't you just join us and move on?

No /sten

[Addai]

Filament wrote...

But everyone did hate the silent Warden. Why can't you just join us and move on?

Entrenched sense of perversity.  [/shale]

[The Gentle Ben]

We only disagree to the extent, that as I understood it, you were saying the voiced protagonist had no association with what was being called "streamlining", and while agreeing with you that I don't care for the sweeping generalizations associated with the term, I felt that in at least one particular (Concern #2) it potentially did.

As to your larger points we are largely if not entirely in agreement.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 02 février 2011 - 08:43 .

[LdyShayna]

SoulRebel_1979 wrote...

Bioware, give us voiced weapons please.

I have liked hose in the past, actually. 

"Shut up, Enserric!" 

[FieryDove]

LdyShayna wrote...

As I said above: "The more BioWare does FOR me for my character, the less it is my character, from my point of view."

Adding facial expressions is just one of those things.  Occasional cutscene take-overs could be mildly annoying, but didn't happen to much.  Doing this sort of thing during most major dialogs pushes the boundaries on whether its my character or theirs a little too far for my preference.  Not sure how I could explain it better.  Sorry.

You are wrong! I am wrong! In fact we are all wrong so back to our closets.

Oh and Hugs

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ah, so then the term "streamlining" when used on the forums is even more meaningless than I had anticipated.  This is perhaps the... third or fourth unique definition of "streamlining" I've read. 

Streamlining is the Ebil wheel and paraphrase system.
(Your avatar still scares me) Sorries.